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07-03-2012, 04:14 PM
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stupid question about 625
can you use 45 acp WITHOUT moon clips in a 625 smith? is the chamber so designed to headspace off the mouth of the case or the moon clip?
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07-03-2012, 04:21 PM
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Yes, but you will not be able to eject them unless you have a pencil or something to punch them out one at a time.
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07-03-2012, 04:24 PM
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thank you for the info!
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07-03-2012, 04:30 PM
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Yup, just carry a pencil or a 1/4" wooden dowel works good too.
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07-03-2012, 04:58 PM
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This is true with 625-3's but at some point it stops being true. I'm just not sure which dash number it is. So not all 625's can be shot without moonclips.
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07-03-2012, 05:12 PM
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I could be mistaken but I believe all modern S&W .45 ACP revolvers headspace on the case mouth, probably from after WWII on, and likely some time before that. All my .45s, including a 1955 Target from 1956, headspace on the case mouth.
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07-03-2012, 05:21 PM
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I had a model 625-8 that would fail to fire without moon clips.
It was hit or miss whether they they would fire or not. I never shoot factory ammo and some of the problem could have been my reloads. Maybe different brass length. I never judge a gun shooting less than factory ammo.
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07-03-2012, 07:16 PM
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My 5-screw 1955 Target has chambers properly cut to permit firing .45 ACP cases without moon clips; as noted above they just need to be picked or pushed out separately.
My recently purchased 625-8 has chambers cut too deep to allow this. I checked with a .45 ACP case, the chambers were cut so deep that I do not think the firing pin would hit the primer. Luckily it fires just fine with moon clips or .45 AR brass...
Last edited by Coastie762; 07-08-2012 at 08:35 AM.
Reason: Changed revision of 625 (typo)
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07-03-2012, 07:27 PM
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I always shoot 625-8 without moon clips. Just tip the gun up and the cases fall out, the ones that don't I use my finger nail to easily remove them. When I am shooting I see no reason to load moon clips, shoot, then unload moon clips just to load another and so on. Just load the gun directly, shoot empy and reload the gun. I find the moon clips just a pain in the rear.
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07-03-2012, 07:34 PM
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smith says new ones don't have shoulder. didn't ask where the cut was, but new p-c isn't cut with shoulder
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07-03-2012, 07:44 PM
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All the older 25-2's I have shot will fire without clips.
My 325 NG will shoot most of the time without clips with Remington 230 Golden Saber or 230gr Ball. However with most other ammo it will not shoot at all with out the clips...
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07-03-2012, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpointfive
I always shoot 625-8 without moon clips. Just tip the gun up and the cases fall out, the ones that don't I use my finger nail to easily remove them. When I am shooting I see no reason to load moon clips, shoot, then unload moon clips just to load another and so on. Just load the gun directly, shoot empy and reload the gun. I find the moon clips just a pain in the rear.
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That is because you don't have ENOUGH moon clips. I would recomend having a minimum of 30 moon clips on hand and 60 is even better. When you hit the range with 180-300 rounds pre-loaded in clips you can shoot until the cylinder is too hot to touch without gloves. BTW, I find that particular problem starts to become noticeable at about the 180 round mark, thus my recomendation for a minimum of 30 clips.
BTW, like you when I shoot without using the clips with my 625-8 all I have to is point the barrel up and give the gun a firm shake. I'm not sure how my cylinder was machined but I suspect that it may have been ECM machined because it was totally free or any trace of a tool mark out of the box.
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07-04-2012, 09:32 AM
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It seems the "We'll build the best 625 possible, bar none" mentality stopped with the -4. Shortly thereafter they adopted the "Hey, we'll shortcut this thing as much as possible and the gunwriters will continue to promote it as being the same and most customers are too dumb to know the difference" mentality. This is also the same time that they switched to the frame mounted firing pin on all their revolvers. My 627 with the frame mounted firing pin functions perfectly so I will not condemn that concept in and of itself, but once you stop boring the cylinder properly you run into all sorts of trouble. Add CA compliance to the equation and you end up with a less than satisfactory product, at least as far as the 625 is concerned.
Dave Sinko
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07-04-2012, 02:07 PM
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Dave;
I'm not sure I agree with you as to "why" they quit headspacing on the case mouth.
For some reason, someone in authority at S&W, thought that they would be better served by use of a conventional ball seat. My 625-6 Model of 1989 and my Model 625-8 (JM Special) are two of the most accurate revolvers I have used (and that is a bushel basket of revolvers). They are MUCH more accurate than some of the 1917's I have used in the past.
I have no opinion as to whether or not it's BECAUSE of or in SPITE of the new ball seat, but I have no problems with using moon clips with .45 ACP's. If I wish to bypass the use of the clips, I just simply grab a bag of .45 Auto Rims as I head for the range.
Personally, I consider it a non-issue. I certainly do NOT consider the late model 625's to be less than satisfactory IN ANY WAY (emphasis intended).
FWIW
Dale53
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07-04-2012, 02:27 PM
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I have a 625-8 that will not fire 100% of the time when not using moon clips. You can pull the fired casings out with your thumbnail though.
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07-04-2012, 02:31 PM
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I have a 625PC and while I'm no expert, looking at the cylinder, there is a ring that looks like it would catch the rim of the case. I will try tomorrow at the range. I would think that if it doesn't fire it's because the firing pin is not the longer one that's available.
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07-04-2012, 03:46 PM
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Associated with this issue of not firing without moonclips in a dash 8,
I am experiencing recoil pulling with all factory loads. If I shoot 3 of the
6 rnds in the moonclip the other 3 cartridges start getting longer.
My groups start to widen on the last 3 shots.
Is this recoil pulling normal? It has never pulled far enough to jam
up the cylinder.
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07-04-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treerat
can you use 45 acp WITHOUT moon clips in a 625 smith? is the chamber so designed to headspace off the mouth of the case or the moon clip?
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I bought a 625-2 in 2009. I had two full-moon clips that I used. These ended up getting lost. Since then I have fired the revolver without clips. Results have been fully excellent... perfect ignition, excellent on target accuracy. Empty casing have been easily ejected from the cylinder by a simple flip of the fingernail. Even steel cased Tula ammo has been easy to remove. I've not ever had to resort to a pencil or any other such tool. YMMV. Sincerely. brucev.
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07-04-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nn
Associated with this issue of not firing without moonclips in a dash 8,
I am experiencing recoil pulling with all factory loads. If I shoot 3 of the
6 rnds in the moonclip the other 3 cartridges start getting longer.
My groups start to widen on the last 3 shots.
Is this recoil pulling normal? It has never pulled far enough to jam
up the cylinder.
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I can only speculate since I shoot nothing but reloads in my guns. I do NOT have that problem, even with 250 gr Keith bullets at 900+ fps (chronographed). The heavy bullet loads have a proper crimp groove and I use a medium roll crimp on those.
My standard target loads are 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent with a 200 gr Mihec clone of the H&G #68 SWC. I wouldn't expect those to be a problem. I taper crimp to .470" at the outside diameter of the mouth of the case. Further, my dies give me adequate case neck tension (both case neck tension AND proper crimping play a part in proper operation).
It seems to me that you have an ammo problem. I cannot think of anything regarding the revolver that could/would cause this to happen. I think a change of ammo is in order.
Dale53
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07-04-2012, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale53
I can only speculate since I shoot nothing but reloads in my guns. I do NOT have that problem, even with 250 gr Keith bullets at 900+ fps (chronographed). The heavy bullet loads have a proper crimp groove and I use a medium roll crimp on those.
My standard target loads are 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent with a 200 gr Mihec clone of the H&G #68 SWC. I wouldn't expect those to be a problem. I taper crimp to .470" at the outside diameter of the mouth of the case. Further, my dies give me adequate case neck tension (both case neck tension AND proper crimping play a part in proper operation).
It seems to me that you have an ammo problem. I cannot think of anything regarding the revolver that could/would cause this to happen. I think a change of ammo is in order.
Dale53
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There isn't any other major brand from the US to try.
I did try reloaded lead from someone that is, in his group, considered
an expert gunsmith and re-loader. His ammo pulled also.
It has been frustrating, I can use 1/3 moonclips one at a time and not get pulling.
Has anyone actually checked, ie shoot 4 or 5 rds and looked at the and measured the remaining 1 or 2 rnds?
Last edited by nn; 07-04-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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07-04-2012, 06:59 PM
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I have heard the frame mounted firing pin models (625-6 and on) can have issues if not using moon clips. I remember seeing an extended firing pin on Brownells that is supposed to address that.
Never heard of hammer mounted firing pin models (625-2,3,4) having that issue.
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07-05-2012, 09:19 AM
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(For nn) I have never actually checked OAL of a loaded round that has been in any of my 625s for 4 or 5 shots and then been extracted, but I have never had any sign of a problem, and I have never heard of anyone complain about that. Usually this is something you see with a revolver that kicks much harder and faster.
How much movement of the bullet are you getting? Are you just talking about a few thousandths, or is this something you can detect visually (without measuring tools)?
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07-05-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14
(For nn) I have never actually checked OAL of a loaded round that has been in any of my 625s for 4 or 5 shots and then been extracted, but I have never had any sign of a problem, and I have never heard of anyone complain about that. Usually this is something you see with a revolver that kicks much harder and faster.
How much movement of the bullet are you getting? Are you just talking about a few thousandths, or is this something you can detect visually (without measuring tools)?
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I can see it, esp when putting new rnds in the clip next to that rnd. The lead rnd, after 10 rnds was adout a 1/32" though that is a guess, though there was a new gap between the SWC bullet and the brass.
Last edited by nn; 07-05-2012 at 03:16 PM.
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07-05-2012, 03:42 PM
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Back to the original question. Measure the headspace both with and without the full moon clips. If there is materially more headspace (distance between case head and recoil plate) when not using the clips then the rounds should not be fired without clips even if they go off. This is not good for the revolver.
If there is no material difference in headspace and your rounds won't reliably fire, then the replacement of the firing pin CAN help this. I use the Apex Tactical "duty" extra length firing pin. I have also tried Cylinder & Slide firing pins but had a failure with their pin (Note: Cylinder and Slide do NOT recommend dry firing with their firing pins whereas Apex does not caution against dry firing).
Keep in mind that the "extra length" firing pins are not actually longer but the slot in the side lets them EXTEND further. Amounts to the same thing, I guess...
At any rate, the extra length pins are relatively easy to change (if you know how to safely remove the revolver side plate).
FWIW
Dale53
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07-05-2012, 03:44 PM
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My 2 ea -3's will not fire 100% without moon clips. BTW I use full moons and lot of AR too.
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07-06-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale53
Back to the original question. Measure the headspace both with and without the full moon clips. If there is materially more headspace (distance between case head and recoil plate) when not using the clips then the rounds should not be fired without clips even if they go off. This is not good for the revolver.
If there is no material difference in headspace and your rounds won't reliably fire, then the replacement of the firing pin CAN help this. I use the Apex Tactical "duty" extra length firing pin. I have also tried Cylinder & Slide firing pins but had a failure with their pin (Note: Cylinder and Slide do NOT recommend dry firing with their firing pins whereas Apex does not caution against dry firing).
Keep in mind that the "extra length" firing pins are not actually longer but the slot in the side lets them EXTEND further. Amounts to the same thing, I guess...
At any rate, the extra length pins are relatively easy to change (if you know how to safely remove the revolver side plate).
FWIW
Dale53
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I have .018 difference-.025" difference in the head space,
and it won't shoot without the clips.
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07-06-2012, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nn
I have .018 difference-.025" difference in the head space,
and it won't shoot without the clips.
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To tell what is going on you really need to measure headspace using a gage. You "might" come close IF you are absolutely sure your test cartridges are the same diameter and length as a .45 ACP headspace gage, but that could be problematic.
I don't know if revolver cartridge headspace gages are like rifle cartridges (go, no-go, and field) but I would think you would at least need to be able to gage the go and no-go dimensions (or minimum- and maximum-chamber). It seems Handejector just said recently (elsewhere) that he could not find established SAAMI dimenions for .45 ACP in a revolver - didn't he?
In any case, you would need to know what those dimensions should be, and then... you would need to know whether your ammunition conforms to SAAMI standards. It is not as simple as just dropping a cartridge in your gun, closing it, and testing it with feeler gages.
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07-07-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M29since14
To tell what is going on you really need to measure headspace using a gage. You "might" come close IF you are absolutely sure your test cartridges are the same diameter and length as a .45 ACP headspace gage, but that could be problematic.
I don't know if revolver cartridge headspace gages are like rifle cartridges (go, no-go, and field) but I would think you would at least need to be able to gage the go and no-go dimensions (or minimum- and maximum-chamber). It seems Handejector just said recently (elsewhere) that he could not find established SAAMI dimenions for .45 ACP in a revolver - didn't he?
In any case, you would need to know what those dimensions should be, and then... you would need to know whether your ammunition conforms to SAAMI standards. It is not as simple as just dropping a cartridge in your gun, closing it, and testing it with feeler gages.
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I understand most of what you say; but, it is getting too technical if I
have to check factory ammo for dimension correctness and if they meet
SAAMI standards when they come from Rem, Winchester, federal, or Hornady; this does not mean one should not check the ammo they buy
for obvious defects.
Besides I did not just drop it in and close it, I put one in a moonclip
and others in sans clip to either side.
But, I am now convinced the non firing without a clip is just the way
the -6 and newer guns work.
The issue now is why do bullets pull, it is not that high a recoil rnd
and it is not limited to a few brands, it is everything.
It probably is happening to everyone with a 625 and they haven't
noticed because they shoot the gun empty.
Making a reference like
Quote:
Handejector just said recently (elsewhere)----Didn't he
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doesn't help much because I would not know where without a link.
Last edited by nn; 07-07-2012 at 09:49 PM.
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07-07-2012, 09:56 PM
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No offence intended to the O/P or anyone else here, but I don't see why you'd not want to use moonclips in a 625, as they were intended for use with them, even if some earlier models will fire OK w/o. If they're too much hassle (even the RIMZ polymer ones, which are convenient for practice), load up some Auto Rim brass. Best of both worlds.
Stuart
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07-07-2012, 11:06 PM
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I've got a 1917, as old as you can get for a Smith revolver chambered for .45 ACP. I've shot it many times without the clips. Just gotta pick the empties out with your fingernails or use something to push em out with. I especially liked shooting it with .45 Auto Rims, but full moon clips are the way to go. Just ask Jerry!
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07-08-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbrownhat
No offence intended to the O/P or anyone else here, but I don't see why you'd not want to use moonclips in a 625, as they were intended for use with them, even if some earlier models will fire OK w/o. If they're too much hassle (even the RIMZ polymer ones, which are convenient for practice), load up some Auto Rim brass. Best of both worlds.
Stuart
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For the most part I agree, it is only a just in case
scenario----moonclips bend, a person might forget them, or maybe
an emergency.
Or maybe the Internet ninjas have been telling me my gun is broke because it won't shoot without clips as their -1 does or a -2 610 or a 9mm speed six.
But, there is a reason they don't----it would have been better if S&W had addressed the issue in their owners manual.
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07-08-2012, 08:49 AM
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To get a comparison of chamber depths between my two .45 revolvers, I placed an unfired case in a charge hole in firing position and used feeler gauges to measure the gap between the case and recoil shield.
The 625-8 measured a .017" gap. The 1955 measured .002". Just to clarify, this is NOT a headspace measurement, only showing the differences in the two chambers.
I have not yet attempted to fire .45 ACPs in the -8 without clips. However, I'll have it at the range later this morning testing some AR loads and will have to give it a try, if only to satisfy my own curiousity.
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07-08-2012, 03:03 PM
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Back from the range shooting the 625-8 with some interesting results. I tested two different .45 ACP loads over my chrony both with and without a moon clip. I predicted that the loads shot without the clip would either not fire reliably or if they did, ignition would be erratic.
Of course, I was wrong.
Each string was one cylinder (06 rounds) each. The firing pin and mainspring are both stock.
First load was a 200 gr Lasercast SWC over 3.9 grains of Clays sparked by a Federal 150 primer in a RP .45 ACP case. Fired with a moon clip the load averaged 782 FPS, extreme spread of 36 FPS. Without the clip the load averaged 757 FPS with an extreme spread of 44 FPS.
The second load was a 185 gr Hornady XTP-HP over 6.2 grains of Bullseye in CCI (small pistol primer) cases using CCI 500 primers. Using a moon clip, this load averaged 986 FPS and an extreme spread of 38 FPS. Without the moon clip, the load went 951 FPS also with an extreme spread of 38 FPS.
All primers, whether fired using a moon clip or not exhibited a deep solid indentation. Most surprisingly, there was little to no difference in velocity spreads. Each load did show a small drop in average velocity by the loads fired (25 and 35 FPS, respectively) without a moon clip.
Obviously this is a very limited test and not statistically significant. I have no inclination to regularly shoot .45 ACP loads without the clips, however the fact that it will do so is good to know (and for me at least, intriguing).
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07-09-2012, 01:59 AM
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Thanks for posting your results.I have a 625-6 and was wondering about firing it firing wthout clips as the manual says to use them always.
I know both my 25-5 and 625-3 will.
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07-10-2012, 08:24 PM
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Coastie762:
That is good news.
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07-10-2012, 08:51 PM
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Thanks. The results were interesting. Like I said, they were not what I expected but thats part of the fun of this hobby!
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07-10-2012, 11:56 PM
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Can anyone post a picture of the two different cylinders? I never had a chance to fire a 45ACP revolver and I was wondering how they work and what the cylinders looks like.
Thanks, James
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07-11-2012, 01:07 AM
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I have fired my 625-6 MG without moon clips at least 100 times with factory ammo, and never had any problems with ignition or extraction. I take them out with my fingernails. Maybe I am just lucky.
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