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Old 08-15-2012, 09:35 PM
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Default Deadly force is authorized at this facility!

I have done several projects at JPL in Pasadena in the past. When you check in at the main gate guard house there is a sign prominently displayed that states “deadly forced authorized at this facility”! The guards are obviously armed and I can guarantee you that I do not fool around with armed security guards as they generally do not have a sense of humor. Prior to 9/11 we were issued a temporary pass that allowed us to go just about anywhere on the facility. Post 9/11 we had to be escorted everywhere we went even though we were Federal Employees with proper ID’s. Heck we even had Cal Tech ID’s as that is where our local office was located and we still had to be escorted. JPL is run by Cal Tech for NASA. Anyway I just wondering why they needed the sign.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:39 PM
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if you spent any time on facebook .. you'd know just how many are capable of totally missing the obvious.... there's their sign
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:41 PM
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if you spent any time on facebook .. you'd know just how many are capable of totally missing the obvious.... there's their sign
Sorry, I am old fashioned and do not do Facebook. I do not have that many friends anyway.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:49 PM
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that's alright. Ive made many mistakes in my life, and facebook might be one of them. Necessary evil given my situation. Its the most practical means of keeping in touch with my family and friends back in WI till they screw it up like every other social networking service has.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:54 PM
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Psyops.....make potential badguys think twice......
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:19 PM
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Default IIRC ARADCOM Sites in the 70's

Had the same signs and they meant it. Sentry Dogs within the perimeter and these were GSD's that probably went over 100#.
Nike Hercules sites with tac nukes as the warhead. I was escorted and had to check any spark producing devices when you signed in.
Uncle Sam takes his nuclear arsenal very seriously.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:21 PM
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In this country, at least, cops aren't supposed to kill you. Cops are supposed to arrest you. You do something wrong, and you get caught, and they arrest you.

The sign is just to let people that KNOW (from years and years of television) that no matter what you do, the worst that will happen is you get arrested, that in HERE, they don't arrest you. They kill you.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:37 PM
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Usually the only thing that warrants the "deadly force authorized" are nuke warhead facilities (Bangor, Nellis north, Kirkland east etc.) or ultra secure areas like Area 51.

Why JPL would have DFA signs is beyond me unless they have nuclear material (i.e. plutonium) for nuclear propulsion engines for some of their spacecraft.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:39 PM
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It sounds like JPL are finally operating their security properly. If you are not in the fold for the hairy stuff, you are treated with as a visitor, regardless of who you are or how long you have worked for the government. This is not just a 9/11 thing. I believe the security debacle at Los Alamos has had an even greater effect.

Having a Facebook account can be a proper PITA if you want to work anywhere like JPL. I know some folk who work at Nellis and they said reporting on me as a foreign national was easy. Having to cough up details on extended family they might have contacted once on Facebook was not so painless. If that family member was overseas, the scale went into the agony range really quickly.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:50 PM
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I done a little over 35 years as a lockheed guard. I was lucky in never being laid off. In that field a lot of guards floated around. I belive as far as california defense jobs I knew guys that had worked all of the plants you can name includeing JPL. When I started out in 1965 the majority of the guards were retired LEO or military. It cost`s a company plenty to get the required clearances. If contracts were cut back and a guard got laid off it was pretty easy to get hired in somewhere else as that company could save on getting you fully cleared again. Kinda like picking grapes. You could be sure if we got a new hire that some of our guys had worked with him elsewhere and we had the word on him. Also some of us seemed to come from working various movie studios too.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mwtdvm View Post
Had the same signs and they meant it. Sentry Dogs within the perimeter and these were GSD's that probably went over 100#.
Nike Hercules sites with tac nukes as the warhead. I was escorted and had to check any spark producing devices when you signed in.
Uncle Sam takes his nuclear arsenal very seriously.
This brings back memories that I had forgotten about. Back in 1973 when I was new on the job I was sent to the Milagra Ridge Nike site near Pacifica. We had a radio receiver site for a seismograph we had on the Farallon Islands there. Being the new guy on the job I was told that I did not need to check in at the facility, to just drive to the telephone pole where we had our radio and change the battery. When I arrived I looked down the hill to the Nike site and the missiles were above ground. I looked again just a few moments later and they were gone. I guess they can really move those things. Anyway I also noticed they had dogs patrolling the inner fence perimeter. In another couple of minutes a Pacifica patrol car showed up with two officers and they asked me who I was and what I was doing there. After I explained what I was doing they chuckled and told me that I was lucky they did not release the dogs on me. After that every time I had to work there I always checked in with base operations.

Many years later I was at the San Leandro Hills Nike site which was a county park then. I noticed that they had painted o the concrete in big yellow letters the following; FLASH TO BANG DUCK AND COVER. I sure am glad it never came to that.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:26 PM
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Feralmerril, do you recall if there were similar signs posted at Lockheed while you were working there?
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:33 PM
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I remember when we would hang "crowd pleasers" on the wings of A-7's during drills. I never really wanted to find out if those M-16s the Marines carried were locked and loaded but you can bet deadly force was authorized. There is just something spooky about handling a nuclear bomb at 3am just 20 feet from the edge of the flight deck and all you can see beyond that edge is a big black nothing. All the while a Marine is watching you with a look on his face that says please give me a reason to shoot you.

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Old 08-16-2012, 12:12 AM
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I was a government contractor from 1982 to 2007.

On a couple of occasions I visited the Pine Bluff Arsenal / National Center for Toxicological Research in Pine Bluff , Arkansas.

You started seeing DFA signs not far from the gate. When you got out close to the igloos where they stored the chemical / biological agents the signs became more threatening.

I cannot remember the exact wording but it was basically ..... unescorted people are subject to being shot on sight.

One thing I do remember vividly is in one of the buildings they had row upon row of chimps / monkeys in small cages. I know they served a purpose, but it made me sad to look them in the eyes.
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:04 AM
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EQ, no, I never seen signs at lockheed saying you could be shot. When we were briefed on certain projects they would try to put the fear of God in us. I have been around a lot of stuff I still cant talk about per threat of jail. Really, its probley stuff that has been declassified for many years but we never get released from haveing to keep our mouths shut. Something might show up in magazines that we knew about for ten years or more that was released by high powers like Mc namara, yet I dont recall even once any security agent ever saying we were good to talk now. We were told to plead ignorance even when the world knew otherwise.
I have been thrown down on several times by military security until we could get things sorted out when I was on several plaincloths details. Sometimes we would be "tried out" by different agencys. I remember one guy jumping me in the dark and saying he had a gun on me. He was damn lucky I wasnt armed as usualy we always were but I was working on a military base in plain cloths.
By my choice I worked about 32 out of 35 on graveyard. It paid the most, was more laid back and cooler. Working graveyard was a entirely different job than dayshift. Usualy dayshift guards were mostly tied to a gate. On graveyard you prowl most the night like ghost. It wasnt a normal life.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:02 AM
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A U.S.Marine with a rifle--No better security!
Would they use "Deadly Force"? Know anyone above ground that violated the Marine's post?
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:51 AM
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A couple of decades ago due to my work I had clearances to get into nuclear facilities. Even back then you were investigated back as far as your great grandparents. Just getting into the outside gated area parking lot was interesting but after you entered into some plants the security was intense. I realize what I experienced by now has increased at least ten-fold.

Back then they carried some revolvers and were moving into the Beretta for short guns. They also carried M16s and had a few more goodies available for special occasions. One of the guards there was a good friend and shooting buddy at my gun club. He told me of the intensive constant practice they were always doing and also the physiological training they went under in order to enforce compliance in the “Deadly Force Authorized” in that plant. No doubt in my mind a stupid or criminal move would put you in serious jeopardy.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:13 AM
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Several years back on a bike ride through Nevada I took a short ride from Rachell over to the "black mailbox". Turn south at the mailbox onto a dirt road and in a few miles theres one of the gates into Area 51.

They had the same red/white "Use of DEADLY FORCE Authorized" signs at that gate. As well as Guards with MP-5's!
I approached very slowly...stopped maybe 50 yds from the gate and used a VERY well worn U Turn lane and back I went.

MY only "Come close, and we Kill you", sign story.

FN in MT
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:15 AM
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Slightly off topic but when I became a Federal supervisor, I had my security level raised and that required a new background check. An NSA investigator came in and interviewed me. As he was leaving he said" I almost forgot. Are you now or have you ever been a member of any organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the government?"

I answered " I am a Freemason. A few of us had a disagreement with King George a couple of hundred years ago!"

He was still chuckling as he went down the hall from my office.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:58 AM
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You can be shot whether the sign is up or not. Oh there are probably a more open set of ROE but the guards here would shoot if you tried to run the gate or some such. The National Defense Act of 1947 authorizes such. The signs are just sort of a courtesy reminder.

That reminds me... I need to send all those GPS coordinates to my new pen pal Achmed. He sure is interested in geography.

Back in the early/ mid 90s you could flash photocopied credentials and walk into the Pentagon armed. There was a minor scandal when the GAO reported on it.

As an aside... at the coffee/snack bar in the FBI HQ at Quantico.... theu have to keep the Powerbars and what not locked up. Otherwise people steal them. Reassuring is it not?
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Old 08-16-2012, 11:59 AM
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Beale AFB--which was a SAC base--had DFA signs all over the place. The story was that once some high school kids attempted unauthorized entry and of course got caught. If so I would expect they still have nightmares about it.

Like Feral Merrill, I always preferred to be a creature of the night, too.
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Old 08-16-2012, 12:04 PM
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In my 35 years on that job working probley with probley a 1,000 to 2,000 guards I never heard of a guard shooting someone. We did have several shootings amoung the employees. Also we had people scale the fences and get in. Mostly they were tin foil hat nut jobs or druggies. When you have as many employees as live in large towns you are going to have some of the same problems.
We did have one advantage that LE doesnt as guards. That was the fact that employees had their livelyhood to lose rather than just get a ticket or whatever from a LEO.
It seemed that just because we were thought to have "black programs" that alone would draw out nut jobs that had big imagenations trying to find out what we had.
It was a good but boreing job.

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Old 08-16-2012, 12:57 PM
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all you have to do is drive by the missile silos in Colorado , Wyoming and Nebraska and you will find the deadly force sign on all four sides on the barbed wire fences. it is NOT recommended that you go and rattle the fence to see if anybody is home. there are sensors that signal the sky cops to show up and I have been told they have a poor sense of humor
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Old 08-16-2012, 01:01 PM
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The sign is there so that if someone gets turned into a sieve they had a legal way of saying "I told you so!"
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:03 PM
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Back in 1974-75 I was a young troop asigned to a nuclear ordnance unit in Germany. Our job was supply and maintenance of the war heads. I was just a mechanic and never even saw one of the things.
We had two platoons of infantry that provided security for the location where the nukes were actually kept. They were very serious about their job. Late one night one of our own guys wandered too close to the perimeter. It was too dark for the guard on duty to recognize him. When challanged our wanderer replied "Its nobody. Go ahead and shoot!" The guard did.
The only reason I know about it is because I happened to be in the hallway when the 1st Sgt came out and he snagged me to drive the CO out to the site.
I have no idea if the victim recovered or not. The guard was secluded and transfered a couple of days later. There was never another word spoken about the incident.
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:53 PM
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Nuke guards are not known for their flexibility.

One former USAF buddy nearly got his because he crossed "The Red Line" at Bangor. The fact that the line was under four inches of snow made no difference, apparently.

A former RAF buddy said he nearly got shot his first night of guard duty when he tried to stop a convoy of vehicles on his base. Yep, part of the exercise involved rearranging the nukes and his guard commander had not briefed him properly.
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:00 PM
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Nuke guards are not known for their flexibility.

One former USAF buddy nearly got his because he crossed "The Red Line" at Bangor. The fact that the line was under four inches of snow made no difference, apparently.

A former RAF buddy said he nearly got shot his first night of guard duty when he tried to stop a convoy of vehicles on his base. Yep, part of the exercise involved rearranging the nukes and his guard commander had not briefed him properly.
Not the first incident at Bangor:

Back in the late '80's I took a K-12 tour of Bangor Submarine Base. While we were in the bus driving around the closed area where they store the nukes, the tour guide told us a story (Petty Officer IRC).

One foggy night an elderly couple accidentally landed in the nuke storage open areas, mistaking it for the nearby (?) Bremerton airport. They hadn't even come to a stop before they surrounded by a bunch of USMC armed guards that were not amused, followed shortly thereafter with a flight of Eagles screaming overhead direct out of McChord AFB.

Fortunately, no one was shot. I don't know what happened to the couple, but the airplane had to airlifted out by USAF chopper later. I wonder who paid for that bill!
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:29 PM
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Air Force has a dim view of anyone crossing a red line.. what did I know, I was army!

I was at an air show at Seymour Johnson AFB NC some years ago, one of the attractions was a real MIG-17 that was going to fly. I had been "tipped off" about how to avoid a lot of the traffic by using another entrance, they had air cadets directing traffic so all was good there. I was a long way from the demo area so I was just waling right down the flight line.. crews were servicing the MIG and a few others that were soon to fly. I was just thinking how kewl it was that I was privy to such up-close-and-interesting activities when a crew about 200 yards off noticed me, jumped into a truck and came motoring over, wanting to know whyinthehell had I crossed the red line? "What red line" sez I, expecting a rope at waist level at least, but no, they were upset about a mere painted line! After chewing me out for being a dummy for a few minutes they drove off, got about 50 yards, came back and said "And don't cross that red line on the way out either!".
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feralmerril View Post
EQ, no, I never seen signs at lockheed saying you could be shot. When we were briefed on certain projects they would try to put the fear of God in us. I have been around a lot of stuff I still cant talk about per threat of jail. Really, its probley stuff that has been declassified for many years but we never get released from haveing to keep our mouths shut. Something might show up in magazines that we knew about for ten years or more that was released by high powers like Mc namara, yet I dont recall even once any security agent ever saying we were good to talk now. We were told to plead ignorance even when the world knew otherwise.
I have been thrown down on several times by military security until we could get things sorted out when I was on several plaincloths details. Sometimes we would be "tried out" by different agencys. I remember one guy jumping me in the dark and saying he had a gun on me. He was damn lucky I wasnt armed as usualy we always were but I was working on a military base in plain cloths.
By my choice I worked about 32 out of 35 on graveyard. It paid the most, was more laid back and cooler. Working graveyard was a entirely different job than dayshift. Usualy dayshift guards were mostly tied to a gate. On graveyard you prowl most the night like ghost. It wasnt a normal life.
I was also at Lockheed for over 41 years, but in Texas. My last program that required a clearance was a black one, and when I retired, I asked Security about the debrief. They said that when the time came for that, they'd notify me. I still have to keep my personal data updated, and it's been six years since retirement. Although the clearance is inactive, it still costs money to maintain. Doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 08-16-2012, 07:50 PM
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feralmarril, since you're ex-security, you might like this. In 1967, I was working in the shipping department at GD (now Lockheed), and three security officers entered the area carrying a large box. The security department was upgrading their carry weapons and the old ones were being disposed of as salvage. In the box was dozens of Colt and S&W revolvers, still in their original boxes that they had carried since the factory opened in 1941. Lots of holster wear, but otherwise pristine. They sold them for $25.00 each. Makes ya sick.
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Old 08-17-2012, 12:59 AM
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Cass when I hired in burank lockheed april of 1965 only a couple posts required armed guards. We did train with firearms. They were old 6" colt officer model matchs. Then that august the watts riot started and they armed most of us with 4" colt offical polices. I checked the numbers and they all dated to the early 1950s and must have been for the korean war. I suppose after korea they disarmed except for the skunk works etc. I know they were armed in world war two.
Later they switched to s&w 586s and ruger speed sixs. We had all three available to us most my tenure. Personaly, I liked to carry the colts most of the time. I dont know what they are carrying now, but I think 9mm`s.
What irritated me was when they got rid of guns they never gave us guards a crack at them! They would just sell them cheap to the local gunshop. I think they claimed it had something to do with OSHA rules.
My best friends wife worked for the gunshop. She was able to buy some of them. We also had a few colt detective specials.
All of ours had LAC stamped before the serial # on the butt. (Probley for Lockheed Aircraft Company). Our early rigs were mostly flap holsters but later they gave us more modern open types. We had a old marine shooter that was our captain in charge of training us. Captain Gardner.
The state of california consumers affairs department came out with state requirements for armed open carry for guards and a seperate "guard card" in about the early 1970s. I was in the first batch or so that had to be schooled and qualified for the cards. Before that they had no such requirements that I knew of.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:17 AM
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Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility!  
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The "Use of Deadly Force Authorized" signs just let you know the "rules"...

You can't play the game if you don't know the rules.

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Old 08-17-2012, 10:33 AM
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Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility!  
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It is a gentle reminder to people who think everyone at JPL is harmless and looks like this...

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:27 AM
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You are a disturbed, very disturbed individual! Have you lived in Hollyweird your whole life?

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Old 08-17-2012, 04:30 PM
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Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility! Deadly force is authorized at this facility!  
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The last locked door between the unit and the freeworld at every TDC unit I have visited over the last 20 or so years, bears this message on the inside...NO HOSTAGES ALIVE BEYOND THIS POINT...
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:08 PM
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Shooting at threats to installations important to national security should be like voting in Chicago.

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Old 08-17-2012, 06:25 PM
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Because for the most part, even when you see armed guards, they are only authorized to use deadly force in the same circumstances you or I could. To defend their life, or the life of someone else, who is in grave, imminent danger.

Those signs are to make it clear that these people have different rules of engagement.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunBass View Post
Because for the most part, even when you see armed guards, they are only authorized to use deadly force in the same circumstances you or I could. To defend their life, or the life of someone else, who is in grave, imminent danger.

Those signs are to make it clear that these people have different rules of engagement.
That makes sense, I well remember walking guard duty in the Army carrying an M-14 with no ammo anywhere near by. The only time I had live ammo while on guard duty was when I was guarding the ammo dump on Birch Hill at Fort Wainwright in 1969. That time I had a 1911 with one magazine of 7 rounds. The ammo was mostly green with corrosion and I had never before fired a 1911 at that time. I was also instructed that I had better return all 7 rounds after my shift was over or else!
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