Maybe my Sport doesn't need a new trigger, these are with hand loads and my completely stock Sport, with only a scope put on it.

100 yards and these are 1 inch targets

wow good shooting, so whats the stats on the handloads?

My Sport can do that, too! Sometimes it even scares me!! I'm still gonna replace the trigger on mine!!

I'm not known as "Mr. Trigger Snob" for nothing!! Match grade or nothing!

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The Lineman-Proud Army Dad

A 1/2 MOA group (looks like) at 100 yards, with a 3 MOA platform, thats some great shooting.

Looks like your got that H335 dailed in!
If your gettin those groups from sandbags, that's awesome and I don't think you NEED a trigger either!
If your using a lead sled or something, then that's impressive but a better trigger may be helpful.
If your shooting freehand you are a god of some sort and can probably shoot bullets from your fingertips (no trigger required).

Either way good shootin'!!!!!

Those groups were shot from a sitting position on a shooting bench using my elbow on the bench to steady the rifle.

I shoot 85% of mine that way, 10% out of the truck using a millet window pad and the rest offhand. That is precisely one of the biggest reasons we can recommend the Sport so easily...great shooting.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Then I would stick with what I got.

No need for a new trigger. As with all new weapons,your's will get better the more you shoot it. Break in time can do wonders. Save your money for ammo.

Why do you call the Sport a 3MOA rifle. Everyone in this forum that owns one knows it is less than a 1MOA rifle. Mine shoots less than a minute of angle per 100 yards so far out to 300. There are many people who target shoot with their Sports that will attest to that. Do you enjoy playing the devil's advocate, because a Sport is not a 3MOA rifle.
One last question, where did you find data to substantiate your claim that a Sport is a 3MOA rifle?

check this out: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...test-data.html
this test is being done with factory ammo....reloaders know that they can reduce their groups by almost 1/2.

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Grover Oathkeeper

The only time the sport is a 3MOA rifle is when a 3MOA shooter is behind the trigger! I don't how well it will shoot cause it will definately outshoot me, but mine is still shooting around 1/3MOA out to 300yds. It will shoot MOA of Sam's cola can all day long at that same distance.



And after a little scope adjusting



These little jewels will flat-out shoot. The shooters that got 'em know it!

What bullet are you shooting there? Thats great shooting for 300yds with just about any rifle, unless you are shooting a dialed in sniper or match rifle. But for an everyday rifle with a factory barrel that kind of shooting cant be beat. I likey!!!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

The last thing that goes through the mind of a varmit on the wrong of the sport will be a 69gr SMK

Rebs the sitting rested position is how I hunt PDogs, this week I decided to make my MTM Predator Shooting Table and my hospital shower chair better for the job. I did this with spray cans from a Hunters Specialties Camo Spray Paint kit.




Helps me stay under 1MOA!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

I like your shooting table and a great camo job as well.
There isn't many ground hogs, prairie dogs or coyote's where I live but there are a few. Mostly all my shooting is done at our local sportsman's club. We have 100, 200 and 300 yard ranges, 25 and 50 yard outdoor pistol range, 25 yard indoor pistol range, archery range complete with elevated platform, a combat range and a trap range. All for a total of $105.00 per year and you can shoot as much as you like with no additional charges.
There is also a local indoor gun range that charges $17.00 per hour.

I did not claim the rifle was a 3 MOA only weapon and not saying the rifle will only shoot 3 MOA. An inexperienced basic skill shooter using proper aiming techniques with issued ammo (M855) and zero'd using the 25 meter/300 meter zero method should be able to land the majority of rounds within 3 MOA of the aiming point with the issued AR platform at 100 meters using the iron sights (not scopes or red dots). Thats what I mean by the 3 MOA. The 3 MOA is also why that circle around the silhouette on the standard military 25 meter/300 meter zero target is scaled the way it is and why its a circle instead of a square. The 25 meter/300 meter is the basic zero for the AR platform, even though others use different zero's, because thats what the standard issued sights on the issued platform were intended to zero to. An AR platform (even commercial sold) designed to minimum mil spec's should be able to do the same as a minimum under the same conditions, if you do better thats great. Heck, I can do nickle sized groups at 100 meters with standard M855 and iron sights using a 50 yard/200 meter zero with the M&P 15 OR.

Thanks for the info/clarification foxtrot.

a) He is using handloads not issued ammo which he well stated!!
b) at what distance are you shooting nickel sized groups and where are your pics?

Ok you are trying to fast talk your way out of that one. On more than one occasion you have commented that the sport is not a "milspec" weapon but now you are trying to put milspec requirements to it. I appreciate the time that you spend on your posts and I know that people appreciate your self defense way of thinking. But the way you put the original post in no way stated what you just said here. You can spin things like the government does but you have made it clear that you do not consider the Sport a milspec weapon and now you are trying to put milspec specs to it. there are more than a few using the iron sights shooting less than 1moa with their sports. So please dont try to blow smoke, I aint buying. I some times speak my mind out of turn and sometimes can be a little offensive but there are no apologies coming. With no clarification you called it a 3moa rifle which in no way shape or form describes an S&W Sport. Which because it has no dust cover or forward assist you have made clear that you would never own.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Exactly what does this sentence say!!! I do not read between the lines! OUT!

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Grover Oathkeeper

I'm going to keep this short. I don't spend too much time on such nonsense as what you posted because I do not speak kindergarten and don't think I need to include every little detail:

1. I don't consider the Sport a weapon for my own applications. The reason is because I get reimbursed for my weapon purchases if I use them for duty purposes also. This means the AR platform weapons I buy that I want to get reimbursed for need to meet mil-spec and that happens to include a dust cover and bolt assist which the Sport does not have. Would I own one? Sure I would if I could get reimbursed for it. I never made any such thing "clear" that I would not own a Sport. Despite its specific attributes its still an AR platform.

2. You asked for and got your answer, even though you had no right to demand such in the first place. So you don't like the answer, doesn't bother me in the least. You are free to choose any other answer you wish.

3. I already posted the answer to the distance, did you not see it or did you again just jump to conclusions?

4. Where are my pics? The range is a normal part of my work. I fire several thousands of rounds a month. I don't carry around a camera with me just to take pics unless there is a specific purpose just so I can post them on this delusional confused internet world where people seem to think they have a right to gratification of all their demands or just to satisfy some kindergarten level need of others. I did not realize I needed to have you on my list of specific purposes but the next time I fire at 100 meters or greater i'll take a picture just for you.

5. So he was using hand loads, I wasn't being critical of him in anyway, I never mentioned his ammo. I was telling about the 3 MOA because you demanded even though I had no need to do so and you had no right to demand.

6. To say that someone is shooting an AR platform better than 3 MOA at 100 yards/meters or greater is a nice thing to say in the background i'm from and the environment I work in, it means the shooter did well. I said this "A 1/2 MOA group (looks like) at 100 yards, with a 3 MOA rifle, thats some great shooting." - I was actually complimenting him on his great looking group, I even said "thats some great shooting". I normally don't comment on groups of others unless i'm a little impressed or interested.

7. I never asked you for any apology, never expected one, didn't need one, didn't see a situation where an apology was necessary or even implied or infered. You demanded an answer, I gave you one even though I do not normally respond to such demands.

Think what you want, its a free country.

Foxtrot, what brand of M855 are you using? The only one I have shot is Federal LC and I couldn't shoot better than 2MOA. I am interested in trying out whichever one you are getting those groups with.

We use a 50 yard / 200 meter zero and hand selected lots of standard Lake City M855 FMJ 62 Grain straight from the plant.

M855 is known as a not as accurate round as m193, 193 was discontinued because of the horrible wound channel it left. Is this Kindergarten enough for you. M855 is also known to be extremely variable from bullet to bullet even from the same manufacturer. The U.S. Military is getting away from the M855 rounds in favor of a 77gr bullet because of all the problems with the operation of the M855 round. U.S. Army tests show that there is such a variance within the round that there have been many complaints about the round. I don't know how you can say we "handpick" lots of M855 when the Army cant consistently pick lots of M855. I understand you are a LEO, my youngest brother is a LEO and I begged him when he became one because most of our family are either Combat Disabled Vets or career Military that he not turn into one of those, I cant bring myself to say the word, cops. I pity the people that you deal with because I am sure that they walk away going "what" just from your attitude. You did call a Sport a 3MOA rifle and then tried to spin it. You have never said what distance you are shooting at, but be careful, you try to tell me you are shooting nickel sized groups at 100 yards with Federal Lake City M855, I will call you on it. I have two cousins that are military armorers in the Marine Corps, one of them has spent his whole career building rifles for marksmanship teams but because he is the armorer they wont let him on the team. He will tell you that the M855, I dont care how you hand pick it, will not shoot that accurately. I just called him in Arlington, VA to ask, so come on and tell me how childish I am, when you can accept the truth then I may. OUT

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Grover Oathkeeper

You guys must have some good ju-ju! If you aren't shooting competitavely you really should. I build and shoot benchrest rifles and some of the guys there can't shoot that good with $2500 rifles with $2000 scopes using individually weighed and loaded brass, primers, bullets and powder charges.

That was more like a 3MOA answer vs. 1 MOA.

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Stu

I do shoot competitavely, just not on a regular basis. Now with work and then back and forth to Picatinny Arsenal on a quarterly basis, it really doesn't leave much time to take off for a competition. If I had my way I'd do competitions on a regular basis.

LoL well...... I guess

A. The M193 round was not discontinued because of any horrible wound channel. The M193 was replaced by the M855 primarily and simply because a round with greater penetration of things/objects was needed (thus the M855, 62 Grain Steel Penetrator). Combat rounds are supposed to create horrible wound channels, thats the goal to stop the enemy. While we are at getting rid of the M193 because of a horrible wound channel then lets just do away with the 7.62 rounds, 50 caliber rounds, hand grenades, claymore mines, and artillary or ship or air delivered munitions too because after all these leave horrible wound channels too. The M855 wound channel can be just the same or worse than the M193, the Mk262 77 grain wound channel can be worse than any of them. The reason you state for getting rid of the M193 in regards to the wound channel simply does not make for sound reasoning and is born mostly out of myth.

B. The 77 grain bullet will not replace the M855 62 grain nor will the 77 grain become the replacement round for standard issue as the myth goes. The M855 started to be replaced by the M855A1 in 2010 as the main issue round and will continue as such. The MK262 (77 gr) was only in very limited issue and originally intended for use in the Mk12 SPR but was picked up by some special forces units for use due to its close range very violent fragmentation capability and it has been at times issued for other units across the military but thats actually very random and rare. However, it is not replacing the M855 or the M855A1 as the myth proposes.

C. The Marines adopted the Mk318 62 grain SOST (Special Operations Science and Technology) round which was developed for use in the SCAR by Federal/ATK. The SOST rounds are “barrier blind” rounds meaning they stay on target better than existing M855 rounds after penetrating windshields, car doors, objects, etc.... The full name/designation of the round is the MK 318 MOD 0 "Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm Ball, Carbine, Barrier". Its similar to the Federal Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, some people don't think it is similar but we have tested the round here and it does have some very similar qualities to the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw which was developed mainly because of the FBI need for a barrier blind round. There is also a A 7.62 version which is the MK319 MOD 0. However, even the Marines are not dumping the standard M855 round but will be using the SOST alongside it in situations where the SOST will be more effective.

Suprised your "cousins" did not know all this. We test the stuff here, and been part of the testing at Picatinny and all of the sevices, including the Marines, represented there had all this information, and the ammo is fielded, so i'm really suprised this information has not made it down to your "cousins" yet. Maybe you guys had a bad connection. Do you talk to these "cousins" a lot via other than the telephone?

Once again, I did not claim the rifle was a 3 MOA only weapon and not saying the rifle will only shoot 3 MOA, and i never tried to "spin" anything. If you want to read something else into what I posted then you are welcome to do so. Tell you what though, I am going to solve your problem for you. I have edited the original reply to the OP from this "A 1/2 MOA group (looks like) at 100 yards, with a 3 MOA rifle, thats some great shooting." - to this - "A 1/2 MOA group (looks like) at 100 yards, with a 3 MOA platform, thats some great shooting."

There you go, your problem is solved.

The rest of your stuff and fluff I am not even going to acknowledge, its so childish or fluffy or flawed or wrong that it deserves no response.

Foxtrot. How do you go about picking the lots of M855? The govt. standard for this round is 5.5MOA! It is incredible that you guys are shooting around 3/4MOA on a 3MOA platform using that ammo!

I am sending you a PM.

oooooh classified information that only LEO's in his jurisdiction get!!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

OUTSTANDING Shooting (to say the least). You do have it dialed in.

PLEEEEEEASE... What are your reloads ? Powder type/brand and grains ? Bullet,weight. FMJ ? BT-FMJ ? BT-FMJ-HP ?

WOW!
those groups are incredible from a plain jane sport.
since january, with ~2500 down range, with my sport,
the best i've ever done is a 5 shot grouping at 100 yards of .668moa,
using varget and 55gr a-max.
my sport shoots the lighter bullets better than the heavies- ? -go figure with a 1 in 8 twist 5r barrel.

i always have to keep in my mind that
5 shot groups indicate,
but 10 shot groups document.

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A&M'61,NRAlife'61.

Those groups were shot with LC brass, CCI # 400 primer, 25.0 grns of H335 powder, one group was with Hornady 55 grsoft point flat base bullet, the other group was the same except for the bullet being a 55 grn FMJBT.

Hornady Bullets 22 Cal (224 Diameter) 55 Grain Spire Point Cannelure

Hornady Bullets 22 Cal (224 Diameter) 55 Grain Full Metal Jacket Boat

I have shot some Amax and found both these bullets to be slightly more accurate for me, your results maybe different in your particular rifle.

Rebs thank you so much, I am going to have to try the H335. It has been awhile since I documented some of my targets. After Sept 30th I have a month break in deer hunting and I am going to do some target shooting and post my groups. I sure hope my reloads with the CFE223 do that well, I know they do well but I haven't shot for score, so to speak, in a while.

I just looked in my reloading manuals, you are running over 3100fps with those loads and it is real evident that your Sport loves them, my loads are running between 3050 and 3100 and my results have been very good. It seems that the 1:8 5R barrel likes a little zip to it. LOL

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Grover Oathkeeper

Phil, I have recently tried the Hornady 50gr Z-max's on a whim and the sport REALLY likes them too. I pack the cases to the rim with Varget and let 'em fly. Very accurate!

I am still working on the load so that is why I shoot 5 shot groups. Generally I load 5 rounds each of different powder charges and see what happens, then I load 5 rounds each of different type bullets and see what happens. Then I take the best groups and see what amount of powder works best with each bullet type. I take pictures of the groups because its easier than saving the whole target for future reference.

He did not say that the Sport was a 3 moa rifle. He said it was a 3 moa platform, which in mil-spec form with mil spec ammo, is correct.

The post has been edited from its original as a form of concession. Let's not start this up again.

[QUOTE=rebs081;136720563]Those groups were shot with LC brass, CCI # 400 primer, 25.0 grns of H335 powder, one group was with Hornady 55 grsoft point flat base bullet, the other group was the same except for the bullet being a 55 grn FMJBT.
[QUOTE]

Thank you. I have tried the soft points in the past,but was using 4895 and might have had them too hot and they were coming apart. Might try your powder next time and see how that works out. Been awhile since I reloaded,always liked finding that perfevt load. Thanks again.

Makes good sence. If you get just a "bad" small batch,you don't have to unload them. Kinetic bullet pullers freak some people out.

thats why I bought the Hornady Cam Lock bullet puller, the kinetic puller starts hurting after a while. LOL

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Grover Oathkeeper

[QUOTE=Maddmax;136722349][QUOTE=rebs081;136720563]Those groups were shot with LC brass, CCI # 400 primer, 25.0 grns of H335 powder, one group was with Hornady 55 grsoft point flat base bullet, the other group was the same except for the bullet being a 55 grn FMJBT.
I shot the 25.5 load yesterday and the groups opened up some, so I believe the 25.0 is about the best for my AR.

Has anyone tried my loads of 25.0 grains of H335 with the Hornady 55 gr fmjbt or the 55 gr soft point ?
Just wondering how they worked for you guys.

Rebs--How are they working for you at 100? You read about GMCmans loads being way low at 200 with a 50yd point of aim. As I calculate it, if you sight in at 50 you should be about 1.7 high at 100, just wondering.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I couldn't find GMC mans post.
However yes if you sighted in at 50 yds you should be right on at 200 yds. You can see by the targets I posted where I am at 100 yards.
What bullets, and powder is GMCman using ? What is his load ?

He was loading winnie 55gr BTFMJ's with 25gr of CFE223 which is on the lower range of the CFE223 loads, he and I both are doing a series of test loads to find the right charge (or close to it) with the CFE powder, according to the books I trust Lyman and Lee, Lyman puts your load close to the bottom of the range and Lee puts your load close to the top, so does Hodgdon. Depending on your COL, with a Col of 2.200 they claim a max charge of 25.3gr of H335 whereas Lyman goes up to 27gr. Do you chronograph your loads? If you do Hornady's Ballistic Calculator (Ballistics Resource - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc) can also help you a lot.....oops brain gas, I cannot remember what I was going to add.
OK brain reingaged...25gr according to the books looks like a great load. and according to your targets it works also. I wish that we had the number of loads for CFE that you have for H335, we are having to build our data info.
Also on the soft points if the RPM's become too high they will disintegrate after leaving the barrel, they cant be run as hot as FMJ's or Ballistic Tips. I have Some Hornady SPSX 55gr bullets and have been advised that anything above 250,000 rpm will cause them to basically come apart.

Velocity (fps) * 720/ twist rate = rpm's
twist rate if your barrel is a 1:8 it is an 8 twist..1:7 is a 7 twist and so on.

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Grover Oathkeeper

I am going to stay with H335 since it has given me the best accuracy and I just bought 8 lbs of it. I have not had a problem with any of the bullets I shoot as far as coming apart or rpm's being too high.
Another thing I found out about coal is that 2.250 works really good in my Sport. But I am going to try a few at 2.255. I was testing different coal's to see what effect it would have, anything less than 2.250 reduces accuracy.
I almost forgot to add I made a big mistake and loaded almost 200 rounds with 2.200 coal and I guess I will pull them and reseat them to 2.250. Do I need to pull the bullets and then resize all the cases or would it be ok to just pull them and reset to the right coal ? Maybe I can just partially pull them to get the right coal ??

Are you using you ball cap again ? I might have an old style steal pot and liner you can borrow. ha ha.

Does the Cam Lock damage the bullet any ?

Rebs I have pulled and reset the length with no damage to the case or bullet. But it is a lot more difficult but still possible if you have crimped.

Maddmaxx for the most part if you adjust it right the cam lock doesnt even leave a mark on the bullets, I reuse them with no problem. If I have to pull very many I will put my single stage back on my bench because I dont think I can pull them with the hand press that I am using right now.

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Grover Oathkeeper