All my ".38's" are also .357's(Mod 60,686, and Puma Lever).

I stockpiled a fair amount of factory ammo pre & post election. Due to price and availability my cache is probably 75% .38 Special. Now that I finally started reloading it looks to me it would simplify matters to load everything in .357 brass.

So now that you got this far; I enjoy plinking with .38 Specials out of the Model 60. Can you recommend some loads for .357 brass that would replicate .38 Special performance?

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".38 levels of performance" covers a LOT of territory.

Hodgdon manual is a good place to start online. There are dozens of mid-range .357 loads out there using medium powders.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying you plan to shoot .357 cased loads from your mod 60?? Assuming not, what gun are you shooting it from? Fixed or adjustable sights? Desired bullet weights?lead or jacketed ?

FWIW, I've had good results loading my favorite 158 gr LSWC 38 loads in 357 brass just by jacking up the charge (same powder) by .1 to .2 gr AS A STARTING POINT. That said, never exceed any max recomended load from any manual. Also , be REAL careful trying to make soft "357 loads" using magnum powders. Light loads with slow powders can easily cause overpressures and destroy your gun. It's safer IMHO, to use faster 38 friendly powders ( like bullseye, clays, reddot etc) and keep velocities @/ near 38 special specs.

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Dave

I would like to stock up on 158 grn cast SWC for target shooting in all three guns. The factory 158 grn 38 Special's at +/- 850 fps seems fine for that purpose, but I would like to load something similar in 357 brass. My first reloads were .45 Colt and starting at the minimum recommended level of Universal, I had quite a bit of unburnt powder. I want a light load thats safe, clean, and accurate.

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"Give me Liberty..."

5gr of HP38/231 (same powder) will be close to what you said. You can safely go up to 6gr+ if the lead is hard, so 5gr is a mild load. You aren't going to avoid a little soot with lead bullets, but it cleans out easily.

For folks that don't like to clean carbon rings out of their cylinders this is commonly done.

I have used the exact same load in 357Mag brass that I have used in 38spl with no ill effects. My loads are going about 800fps though. The load is 3.5gr of Bullseye under a 158+gr LSWC and the firearm is a 6" M686/M586.

I have gone all the way down to 3gr for a real cream puff load when I was shooting against someone that was shooting loads that went "pop-----------------------DING". At least mine went "BANG"!

What powders do you have available? The load above given by OKFC is a good one too. Remember, mine only gets about 800fps, his will be more in line with your criteria.

FWIW

Right now the powders I have are Universal and W231. I don't mind cleaning a little soot; but I do want to avoid the unburned powder issues at the low end and wonder about leading in the rifle at the high end.

The unburnt Universal in the powder-puff Colt loads was getting under the extracter and in the crane area causing the gun to "lock-up". I loaded my first 38 Specials Saturday; 3.8 grains of W231 behind the 158 Grn lead SWC. My Lee manual called for 4.0 min, and Lyman speficied 3.6 so I split the difference. I haven't a chance to fire them yet.

There's a gun show coming up this weekend. I am toying with the idea of selling off my assorted factory .38's and replace them with a much larger quantity of .357 brass and cast bullets.

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"Give me Liberty..."

To be candid, using sub-minimum loads is asking to have powder residue. You're down in the .38 S&W velocity range, and the pressures are very low. Very low pressure causes virtually any powder to burn incompletely. Your stated objective of a clean load and your chosen loading practices aren't compatible.
If you load up some comparison rounds with 5gr instead of 3.8gr, you'll see what I mean.
If that is still too much barrel residue for you, plated bullets will eliminate the soot left by burning lead bullet lube.
As to leading, with hard lead bullets you are likely to get leading with too light loads that are insufficent to cause the bullet to obturate and seal.

I shoot 158 gr RN cast over 4 gr of Titegroup. For a +p+ load. It never mattered to me what brass I used except that 38 ejects better out of my 686’s for faster IDPA reloads. I quit using 231 because of the unburned powder issues and use Titegroup in every hand gun caliber now for anything approaching 1000 fps. It is cheap and versatile. If you want load data PM me.

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Shoot fast & live long
Warren

I guess I have too many questions and variables at once. I am happy with the performance of factory .38 special 158 grn lead target loads. Accurate, the wife will shoot them with me, and quiet enough that I can shoot behind the house.

1. I just doubled checked my data. In .38 Special my 49th edition Lyman manual calls for a starting point of 3.6 grains of W231 with a Max of 4.0 behind a 158 grn lead bullet. Not much of a spread. The Lee manual calls for a starting point of 4.0 with a max of 4.5. I didn't think 3.8 was an unreasonable place to start, but I am confused by the conflict between the two manuals? Since the guns are .357's it wouldn't trouble me to go with the Lee data, but it makes a newbie wonder when one book calls for the minimum charge to be same as the "never exceed charge" in the second. Everyone preaches start low and work up. So which manual is closer to being right?

2. I like the 158 grn SWC cast bullet. Inexpensive, makes a pretty hole in the target, and chambers smoothly in the lever gun. I would prefer to load in .357 brass as it feeds better in the rifle, and no cylinder rings to worry about in the revolvers. I am questioning if its possible to load .38 Special equivilent 158 grn cast swc loads in .357 brass and not have undercharge issues?

3. Since I have a preferred bullet and brass; suggestions as to the best powder?

4. Thanks. I appreciate the comments and suggestions. I learn a great deal here..even if doesn't show up in my questions lol

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"Give me Liberty..."

I loaded 38 Special loads in 357 cases for 20+ years, which changed when 357 brass started getting hard to come by. 38 Special brass is much easier and cheaper- free. My solution was to buy another toolhead for my Dillon one for 38 Special and one for 357 Magnum. I now only load +P 38 Special to 357 Magnum loads in 357 brass.

For what its worth, 99% of what you shoot out of a S&W60 ought to be 38 Special.

Looks like you are looking for a light 357 load not +p+. Try using the cowboy loads for 357. There is a lot of them listed and they are easy on the gun and hand. I use Trail Boss for light 357 loads and they shoot fine. Just look at www.Imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss.

The data on the Trail Boss looks just about right .. the dealer actually had several bottles on the shelf last week , $14 something a lb. Might just give it a try.

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I don't know how to explain the difference between the manuals unless one of the listings is for cast bullets with a gas check. I've used as little as 3.1 gr W231 in a 38 Sp. case with no issues. 3.8 gr. in a 357 case should be fine IMO.

I like 5.3 gr. of Universal with a 158 gr. LSWC in 357 mag. It's not a 38 special load but the recoil is manageable and it burns cleanly. I loaded some lighter loads using Universal but when under 4.5 gr. the ES and SD numbers from the chrono were high. The Universal gave more consistent results as the loads reached the 5.0 gr. level. IMO If choosing betweeen Universal and W231/HP38 the faster burning powder W231/HP38 is a better choice for 38 Special loads.

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Andy

I just tried out my .38 Spec loads of 3.8 grns of 231 and they shot great. I had a couple rounds of factory Blazer 158 lead rn's in the cylinder and couldn't tell much difference. I don't know much..but I can say that 231 in the .38 Specials is a much better match than light Universal loads in the 45 Colt.

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"Give me Liberty..."

The slower the powder, the lower the velocity achieved = more unburnt powder.

Slower powders NEED to have higher pressures to work well/efficiently.

Things aren't that way for the faster powders.

In my opinion, and that's not worth a whole lot, W231/HP-38 is faster rather than slower!

Use your 38spl load data and I'll guess you will see a reduction of no more than 75fps. Only load 6 and see what happens over a chrony. If they are erratic raise the charge by .1gr until you get the desired velocity. Shoot slow so you can stop if you have one stuck in the tube. Maybe only load one at a time to keep from double stacking a bullet.

As to the problem with manuals, use manufacturer's data first, period. This is what I do EVERY TIME I start a load, no exceptions. I run them over a chronograph and work up until I get the desired velocity using the manuals as a reference at that point. Just as a reference.

I have a simple rule. Shoot the correct brass in the gun to avoid burn marks on the cylinder. Thus 38's get 38 special, 357mags get magnum brass and the 357 Max and Supermag get Maximum brass.

Just work up your load accordingly. I have had great success with trailboss in 357magnum for Guns I don't want to beat up like my Registered Magnum.

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SWCA 1646

FWIW, I was shooting yesterday and brought my plinking loads of 357 brass.

158gr LSWC loaded with 5.0 grs HP-38 (W231) Very easy to shoot and accurate

I also shot some Magnums loaded with the same bullet and 14 grs of 2400.

Wow! Two pages and nobody mentions unique??

From the Hodgdon load center, I got the starting .357 Magnum data for a 158-gr LSWC and Titegroup. I used a Fed 100 primer, .357 Magnum cases and the MIN 4.5-gr of Titegroup from the load data.

Out of a a 4" revolver I got a very consistent, clean and accurate 900-fps load that was pretty accurate and pleasant to shoot.

+1 on the 5g W231 under a 160g cast in a magnum case.

Been my load forever.

Shoots nice, has enough accuracy and smashum, light recoil.

As far as "regular pressure" .38 Spl. loads go ("NON Plus P"), suitable for plinking & target shooting, I simply increase powder charge by 10 % for use in .357Mag brass.
For instance my .38 Spl. target load for 148 Gr. HBWC bullets is 3.1 Gr of W-231 . This becomes 3.4 Gr of the same powder in the longer case.
Ditto 4.3 Gr. of W-231 behind a 158 Gr. LSWC in .38 Spl. becomes 4.7 Gr. in .357 Mag cases.
Works for me.

I have a pre WW II 357 Registered magnum which was used in bullseye pistol matches for many years with the old standard load of 2.7 gr. Bullseye behind a 148 gr. LWC in 38 Special cases. The gun was always cleaned after shooting so carbon residue did not pile up in the chambers. It was then and still is a superbly accurate 38.

I too am amazed, doesn't anyone use Unique anymore? I have been reloading for over 40 years (started in college back in the late 60's) and after trying a number of different brands, speeds and manufacturers, I settled on Unique and Bullseye for all my 38, 357, 44 Special and 44 Magnum light and mid-range loads. While there are considerably more choices today, I personally find it easier and cheaper to retain fewer powders for all my ammo needs.

For the hot stuff, I finally gave up on 2400 in that it nearly alway left unburned powder in the barrels of my revolvers. When I started using H-110 and 296 (only 25 years ago), that problem was solved. Just my two cents worth.

+1 on using IMR Trail Boss
It is a very bulky powder that fills a lot more of the case. It was made for cowboy action shooting to fill cases and be easy on guns/recoil. It has a very similar burn rate to tite group but is 3 times bulkier. If you look at a can you will see that it is only contains 9 oz. in a standard 1 lb. can. I also like it because it would be very easy to tell if I double charged a case.
I have never used Unique but I work with a couple guys that swear by it for light loads.

OK, somebody's gotta do it.

I use 5.0 grains of Unique under a cast 158 grain SWC in .357 Magnum cases for a rough duplicate of standard velocity .38 Special ammunition. Clocks around 885 fps from my six-inch Model 27 and gives great accuracy.

While there is not a thing in the world wrong with it I never shoot .38 Special ammunition from my .357 Magnum revolvers, choosing to only use loads put up in .357 cases.