Confused about .45 COLT Unique max charge

[SLT223]

The manual seem to be all over the place. I have loaded 255gr LSWC with 8.6-8.7 gr. with 1.6" COL.

Alliant says max 9.5gr (250gr LSWC @ 1.6")
Lyman #49 says gr 8.5gr (255gr LSWC @ 1.575")
Hornady 7.0gr (although it's a 255gr FP loaded to 1.575")

I went off the Alliant data backing down about 10%, then realized I should looked at other data as well. Having now done so, after loading 50rds, I'm a little concerned that Lyman 49's max is under my loading. Should I be?

I'm new to this cartridge, and don't have much experience with Unique. I take comfort in seeing Alliant's data being about a full grain north of my load, but would like to hear from people with experience. I have no qualms with pulling down the rounds I loaded, I just want to hear some experienced opinions.

[arjay]

In a modern, sturdy gun,you should be fine.I use 8gr in a Colt SAA.My favorite 44 mag load uses 10 gr with a 240 gr bullet

[fredj338]

This is true of all powders & all cartridges. The manuals are going to vary because the test platforms & components & testing are diff. So use data from at least 3 vetted sources & avg it.
You also understand there is are two diff loading data ref for 45colt. The old SAA & the modern Ruger. Don't mix them up!!!!! Ruger max data should not be used in Colt SAA or replicas.

[SLT223]

Originally Posted by fredj338

This is true of all powders & all cartridges. The manuals are going to vary because the test platforms & components & testing are diff. So use data from at least 3 vetted sources & avg it.
You also understand there is are two diff loading data ref for 45colt. The old SAA & the modern Ruger. Don't mix them up!!!!! Ruger max data should not be used in Colt SAA or replicas.

Yes agreed, fredj338. I do not own any Rugers or T/C's so I stay away from that data. The figures I posted are strictly non-Ruger loads except for Alliant since it doesn't specify.

[rockquarry]

8.5 grs. Unique and the Lyman #454424 or #452424 has been a popular .45 Colt load for years. Should be quite safe in any .45 Colt gun in good condition.

Unless you're shooting a junker, the loads you have should be fine. Would be for me anyway.

[SLT223]

Appreciated gentlemen. The gun is a new to me 25-7 which I like very much and dont want to damage it. That's my main concern.

[moxie]

Actually, all the published data is perfectly safe. Pick a manual/site and go with it. There is no need to average between manuals. They are all safe. The differences are, as Fred said, due to different components and platforms and test purposes.

Remember that when only one figure is given, as on the Alliant website, that's the MAX load. Starting load is 10% less. That notice is on the lead in page.

[USSR]

SLT223,

The thing with loading for the .45 Colt is, it's platform specific. Since I have and load for a 25-5, here is what I suggest. First, the 25-2 (same gun in .45 ACP) is rated for .45 ACP +P ammo, so your pressure restriction is 23k psi. This will allow you up to 10.0gr loads of Unique with 250 - 270gr lead bullets. However, I would suggest you stick with 8.5 - 9.0gr loads of Unique, since a slower burn rate powder is better suited for heavy loads. For 1000 - 1100fps loads that will bump you up in the 20k - 23k psi pressure range, I would suggest either 2400 or 4227 powder. Googling John Taffin or John Linebaugh and .45 Colt will provide you with very good load data info. Hope that helps.

Don

[Nevada Ed]

I have never had any problems with Lyman's lead bullet data....

However I have run into two printing errors on maximum loads in my manual for the 380-45ACP !!
Another reason to double check data with other manuals.

Stay safe.

[andyo5]

Originally Posted by SLT223

Appreciated gentlemen. The gun is a new to me 25-7 which I like very much and dont want to damage it. That's my main concern.

I also shoot a 25-7. I have several guns in the 45 Colt caliber.
I load 250/255 grain lead bullets with 8.5g of Unique for my SAA and S&W guns and am happy with the results. I have two Rugers which sometimes get more powerful loads because they are built like a tank. But I stick with 8.5g of Unique for the others.

[alwslate]

In my opinion every serious handloader should subscribe to Handloader
magazine. And if you're a fan of the .45 Colt ctg then that's even more
of a reason. Because of the fact that the .45 Colt is a favorite of the
editor and writers like Brian Pearce and Mike Venturino there has been
lots of .45 Colt load data published over the last several years. Brian's
articles are exceptional because he lists loads at various pressure
levels, all pressure tested. One fairly recent issue listed loads at std
pressure at the std velocity level of about 860 fps with over 20
different powders.

[Groo01]

Groo here
To the OP
The main reason for your original post differences
is the depth of the bullet in the case.
The deeper the bullet is seated the less the room, the less the powder needed to get to a specific pressure with a given weight bullet.
Also the last one is with a softer bullet .

[Snapping Twig]

Been loading a 250g RNFP over 9g Unique for a long time. It replicates the original BP loading of 900fps.

Well within the safety margin and laser accurate.

Mine is a 25-7.

[6string]

It is fairly common to see these sort of discrepancies in load data when it involves fast to medium powders and lead bullets.
It really depends on the criteria of the tester.
Some laboratories simply base on pressure data, even if the load in question would probably perform badly from an accuracy or leading standpoint. To them, they just keep going until they approach the pressure limits.
Others will place an emphasis on usability and may stop well short of the pressure limitations if they start seeing diminishing returns.
You are doing the right thing to compare data and work up with caution.

[Somerled]

I'm wary about using data from older manuals and publications with Unique. It doesn't take as much Unique now to generate the same velocities with the same cast semiwadcutters since I started reloading in the 70s. It's far better to start low and work up particularly with Colt Single Action Armies, SAA clones, and S&W N-frames. A chronograph helps immensely.

I looked at the Alliant data. It shows a max. of 9.5 grains for its swaged-lead semiwadcutter. It's almost straight lead with just a little antimony added, which explains the higher charge of one whole grain over Lyman data. It's far better to use Cowboy action data for those swaged bullets, or you'll be cleaning lead out of the revolver until the weekend after next. :-) Yes, you can push swaged lead bullets faster. But I don't like pushing Lewis Lead Removers and lead-wipe-away patches.

[alwslate]

When you take into consideration that the std pressure limit for the
.45 Colt is 13,000 psi and you are using a modern handgun that is
also chambered for rounds like the +P .45 ACP at 23,000 psi does a
few tenths of Unique really matter?

[Wise_A]

I generally seek multiple recent sources and then go with the most conservative numbers. I generally don't care about maximizing velocity as a goal anyway, just teensy groups when my hands and eyes cooperate.

[Biggfoot44]

Bottom line first, the OP's implied loading of 8.5gr of Unique is fine. Change or decades it has been iconic for " full power - std pressure " with most any 250-/255gr bullet. The Alliant load *as written* is ok, but at the 9.5gr neighborhood in a non-Ruger , you need to be careful of all the deails of primer, bullet design, hardness, etc.

And you may well be happy with a load 50-75fps slower. Still a big bullet at medium-ish velocity. Try 7.8- 8.2gr of Unique, see what gives best accuracy.

[jeeps]

8.5 Unique perfect with 255swc is perfect in the standard spec wheelgun. It's all I use in my standard pressure Colt and 1873 Winchester. Very accurate and put deer and hogs down!

[johnnyflake]

I have both an Uberti/Taylor SAA .45 Colt Smoke Wagon 4 5/8" barrel and a S&W Model 25-13 .45 Colt Mountain Gun 4" barrel. I hand load and shoot 250/255gn Cast SWC over 8.5gn and 9.0gn of Unique, with no problems of any kind.

[JohnK]

There is a coincidence in loading here, that I find intriguing.

8.0 grs Unique = 800 fps
8.5 grs Unique = 850 fps
9.0 grs Unique = 900 fps
9.5 grs Unique = 950 fps

Ain't that cute !

I consider the 8.5 load to be factory equivalent, so that's where I load for my single action Colt reproduction (Uberti).

It does chronograph right at 850 fps, with its 5.5" barrel.

[SLT223]

Originally Posted by JohnK

There is a coincidence in loading here, that I find intriguing.

8.0 grs Unique = 800 fps
8.5 grs Unique = 850 fps
9.0 grs Unique = 900 fps
9.5 grs Unique = 950 fps

Ain't that cute !

I consider the 8.5 load to be factory equivalent, so that's where I load for my single action Colt reproduction (Uberti).

It does chronograph right at 850 fps, with its 5.5" barrel.

That's very interesting...as chrono data usually is. The last 100fps means nothing to me. 8.5gr it is for my 25-7.

Big thanks to all of you. As always I appreciate your wealth of knowledge.

[Qc Pistolero]

Originally Posted by SLT223

That's very interesting...as chrono data usually is. The last 100fps means nothing to me. 8.5gr it is for my 25-7.

Big thanks to all of you. As always I appreciate your wealth of knowledge.

So the last 100FPS means nothing to you.....wait 'til that paper target comes charging you with intents of chewing upon you.You will change your mind!
Seriously,I'm flabbergasted at the unanimous opinion about Unique for the .45 Colt.I know it is good but not THAT good!

[johnnyflake]

Originally Posted by Qc Pistolero

So the last 100FPS means nothing to you.....wait 'til that paper target comes charging you with intents of chewing upon you.You will change your mind!
Seriously,I'm flabbergasted at the unanimous opinion about Unique for the .45 Colt.I know it is good but not THAT good!

I've been reloading for over 40 years now and Unique has been the preferred powder for .45 Colt ever since I can remember. Now, you say it's good, but not that good. Please explain what is better, in your opinion.

[BB57]

Originally Posted by Somerled

I'm wary about using data from older manuals and publications with Unique. It doesn't take as much Unique now to generate the same velocities with the same cast semiwadcutters since I started reloading in the 70s. It's far better to start low and work up particularly with Colt Single Action Armies, SAA clones, and S&W N-frames. A chronograph helps immensely.

I looked at the Alliant data. It shows a max. of 9.5 grains for its swaged-lead semiwadcutter. It's almost straight lead with just a little antimony added, which explains the higher charge of one whole grain over Lyman data. It's far better to use Cowboy action data for those swaged bullets, or you'll be cleaning lead out of the revolver until the weekend after next. :-) Yes, you can push swaged lead bullets faster. But I don't like pushing Lewis Lead Removers and lead-wipe-away patches.

I'm also wary of older reloading manual data, but not so much because it takes less powder now than in the past. The loads have been reduced for many powders, not just Unique and that's an artifact of some reloading manuals getting a little more conservative - probably after having their data blow up some not so strongly constructed firearms.

For example Hornady used a Buntline Special to develop load data in its second edition in 1973 - the first edition that had handgun data. In that edition the max loads for a 250 gr jacketed hollow point were:
Bullseye = 8.4 gr
Unique = 10.0 gr
630 = 17.1 gr
2400 = 17.7 gr

In the third edition in 1979 they used the same Buntline Special and the same JHP, but all the maximum loads reduced significantly:
Bullseye = 7.2 gr
Unique = 8.8 gr
630 = 14.5 gr
2400 = 16.4 gr

A couple other powders also appeared for the regular .45 Colt load:
700X = 6.8
296 = 21.6

And they also published Ruger & T/C only loads for the 250 gr JHP:

Unique = 11.3
Blue Dot = 15.1
630 = 16.6 - note that this is less than the 17.1 max for the buntline loads in the second edition (!)
2400 = 19.9
IMR 4227 = 22.4

Fast forward to the sixth edition in 2003, where they used a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk and look at the old powders that are still listed for the 250 gr XTP:
Bullseye = 6.5 (compared to 7.2 in 1979)
Unique = 7.4 (compared to 8.8 in 1979)
Nitro 100 = 6.8
Win 231 = 7.3
Clays Universal = 8.2

They also added a swaged lead 255 gr FP by this time as well, and it reflects the pattern of slightly lower maximum charge limits for lead bullets, set by leading issues rather than pressure concerns, and it's worth noting all the velocities are higher than the 250 gr XTP loads by 5o to 100 fps:
700x = 5.9
Nitro 100 = 6.2
Unique = 7.0
Win 231 = 7.0
Clays Universal = 7.9

The Ruger and T/C only loads for the 250 gr XTP include:
2400 = 20.8 (an increase from 19.9 in 1979)
IMR 4227 = 24.2 (an increase from 22.4 in 1979)

----

What does all that mean? Maximum loads vary based on the people making the manual, the methods they use to determine maximum acceptable pressures, the firearms used, changes in the bullet designs over time (harder or softer core or jacket, slight changes in diameter and/or bearing surface, etc), and plain old lot to lot variation in the powders used in testing.

My advice is to take all load data with a grain of salt, particularly if you are substituting components, since bullets of the same weight and diameter from different manufacturers can create significantly different pressures in the bore with a given charge.

[SLT223]

Originally Posted by Qc Pistolero

So the last 100FPS means nothing to you.....wait 'til that paper target comes charging you with intents of chewing upon you.You will change your mind!
Seriously,I'm flabbergasted at the unanimous opinion about Unique for the .45 Colt.I know it is good but not THAT good!

I'm with you. The only reason I still have Unique after two years is because I never use it. Well, now I want to make a dent in my 8 pounder. I bought a bunch of Maxam's CSB1 back when no Universal was around, and it's been outstanding. I'll probably work up some loads with it, along with the others I have on hand like 231, bullseye, BE86, Clays. I love Clays for low velocity target ammo. I kinda feel left out having no practical experience with Unique I have 500 255gr LSWC's from Dardas, and plan use them to figure out Unique. It seems like this old powder has long history with this old cartridge.

[ddixie884]

Unique is kind of boring, but the gray hair crowd swear's by it. I will be 65yo in a few days and it is the first powder I think of when thinking of loading, less than magnum loads in wheel guns. Especially .45Colt.

[BB57]

Me too.

I guess you have to be over 50 to appreciate it.

[moxie]

Originally Posted by ddixie884

Unique is kind of boring, but the gray hair crowd swear's by it. I will be 65yo in a few days and it is the first powder I think of when thinking of loading, less than magnum loads in wheel guns.

Right!

Boring, as in predictable, repeatable, SAFE.

Great stuff for mid loads in most large calibers.

[BruceM]

The manual seem to be all over the place.

The numbers are different. The reason is that you do not understand what you are looking at in the reloading manuals. This information should NOT be viewed in the context of being recipes.

So use data from at least 3 vetted sources & avg it.

This must work for the poster but I can see no viable reason in logic or science to do this or recommend it to somebody else. If you do not trust the data in your manuals, get rid of them and rely on sources you do trust and are comfortable with. As soon as you start questioning the validity of data from "vetted" sources, you logically cannot trust any of it. My comment after quote #1 applies here also.

However I have run into two printing errors on maximum loads in my manual for the 380-45ACP !!

I try to keep track of these types of things. Again, these errors occured in which manual for what specific propellants with which bullets in which rounds?

Bruce

[Qc Pistolero]

Originally Posted by johnnyflake

I've been reloading for over 40 years now and Unique has been the preferred powder for .45 Colt ever since I can remember. Now, you say it's good, but not that good. Please explain what is better, in your opinion.

Sorry,I admit the ''THAT good''can be interprated two ways.I've never doubted of the usefulness of Unique.Actually,it is my most used powder after H110/WW296.I buy it in 4#or 8#only(exept during the last powder shortage when I grabbed the 1 pounders when I could find them).

So the ''THAT''really meant that I'm surprised at the unanimous opinion .45Colt shooters have about it.Not that Unique is barely good enough for the job.

I'll try to be more accurate in my statements in the future,Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Qc

[Qc Pistolero]

Originally Posted by SLT223

I'm with you. The only reason I still have Unique after two years is because I never use it. Well, now I want to make a dent in my 8 pounder. I bought a bunch of Maxam's CSB1 back when no Universal was around, and it's been outstanding. I'll probably work up some loads with it, along with the others I have on hand like 231, bullseye, BE86, Clays. I love Clays for low velocity target ammo. I kinda feel left out having no practical experience with Unique I have 500 255gr LSWC's from Dardas, and plan use them to figure out Unique. It seems like this old powder has long history with this old cartridge.

As I have explained to Johnnyflake,the''THAT good''didn't mean that I doubt the usefulness of Unique and it still is one of my very favorite(if I'd be forced to have but one powder for all my reloading,it would be it!).I dunno if it is my mastering of written English that is not up to it or the cheap booze I buy and consume,but I must say that I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.
BTW,if you want to get rid of your Unique powder,may I suggest that you dump the can anywhere near my yard?
Qc

[BruceM]

Quote:
"However I have run into two printing errors on maximum loads in my manual for the 380-45ACP !!"

I try to keep track of these types of things. Again, these errors occured in which manual for what specific propellants with which bullets in which rounds?

Please try to get back to me with this information.

Bruce

[BruceM]

Still no response?

Bruce

[noylj]

Data differs, as stated, because test gun and components differ (and, yes, a different lot of powder can make a difference). So, they are all correct, for their trst conditions.
Since I don't know how my test conditions match any manual, I start at the lowest starting load I can find. To average is the simply asking for potential problems. Safety is more important than saving a few components.

[DWalt]

The only guns I have in .45 Colt are several elderly Colt SA and DA revolvers. Therefore I have no interest whatsoever in shooting anything beyond pipsqueak level. My standard load is a 200 Grain Cowboy flat nose lead bullet and 6.5 grains of Bullseye which produces 900 ft/sec.

[alwslate]

Originally Posted by SLT223

Appreciated gentlemen. The gun is a new to me 25-7 which I like very much and dont want to damage it. That's my main concern.

I know you are an experienced shooter and handloader and I
don't mean to insult your intelligence so keep that in mind if
you read this. If you don't already subscribe to Handloader
magazine, do so ASAP. I would hope by now that you surely
understand the difference between Maximum charge weight
at a specific pressure level and the Maximum load or pressure
tolerated by a particular gun or cartridge case. But....you
don't seem to. Your 25-7 has the endurance package doesn't
it? Are you even aware that the .45 Colt is limited to 14,000
psi which is about 38 spl plinking load level? It seems that
many people of adult age are insulted by suggestions that
they should read anything??? You wouldn't be where you
are today without reading would you? Ok read read read and
when you get tired rest your eyes and then read some more.

[Beemer-mark]

The newer Hornady data (7.0 gn) is with their swaged lead bullet for cowboy action shooting. I've used this bullet in a Colt SAA with 8.0 gn with no issues (~800 fps) but assumed Hornady publishes such a low load to prevent leading with an almost pure lead bullet.

9.5 grains is great in a Ruger Blackhawk, a little on the hot side for other guns. The gun and the bullet does matter and you need to interpret the data and not just look at the charge data alone.