Hi all, was loading the standard .38 special LHBWC's the other day and got to thinking. Way back I remember there was a bit of a trend to seat the HBWC backwards with the hollow base up, makeing it a huge hollowpoint. Does anyone have any real world experiance or data on this? It does look rather formidable and at snubby velocitys would it be better than the modren JHP's? Boy I tell ya the weird thoughts you get while reloading!

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Stay safe people!

Not weird thoughts at all. Certain handloading themes and "tricks" keep showing up as a new generation of reloaders develop "new" ideas and re-discover old results. The backward-HBWC .38 is an old one, and often repeated as the solution for getting bullet expansion out of a snubnose revolver.

However, a couple of generations of experienced reloaders and authorities non other than the NRA Technical Advisor say not to use these loads for the following reasons: 1. The hollow base skirt tends to blow off the bullet, leaving it stuck in the forcing cone as a bore obstruction. 2. Counting on the expansion of a backward-loaded HBWC is still as iffy as that of a lightweight JHP. 3. The HBWC is typically cast or swaged from soft lead, and designed for conventional loads at target velocities. Loaded much hotter, accuracy falls off unacceptably, and if cast much harder, the same problem as in (1) applies.

Hey John, thanks for the responce. Now I know why I never did it! I had my doubts about the skirt but never really heard about the results. Now what about the media dust left inside your caseings after tumbleing? Harmfull to the bore or not? Told you I get weird thoughts whilst reloading!

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Stay safe people!

Years ago, I tried loading the HBWCs backwards. They made huge holes...because they tumbled. Accuracy beyond a few feet was zilch.
I had satisfied my curiosity and never tried it again.

The original 'Hydra-Shok' round was just that. A 148gr HBWC , with the familiar post in the center. I have a box or two around here. I'll dig 'em out and post a pic.

Tumbling media dust is mildly abrasive of course. What do you think polishes the brass cases? The media (granulated corn cobs, walnut hulls, grain, etc. rubbing against the brass surfaces with the polishing compound (auto polish, rouge, etc) providing the abrasion.

It's a non-issue. Firing residue simply polishes the bore when shooting. No measurable wear or harm done even after tens of thousands of rounds fired.

I load HBWCs backwards for my Model 36.
I use W231 loaded to full charge in most load manuals with
a Hornady 148gr HBWC. Velocity was 740 fps from a 1 7/8" barrel. I find it to be superbly accurate to 25 yards - just as much so as when loaded correctly. They seem to expand very well in soft mud that I tested it in and expanded to the largest diameter from a snub rather than a 4". Out of the 4", the bullet pealed back farther and got smaller.

Loading ammo like this used to be very popular for self defense
given that the 158 grain lead round nose "Police Service" cartridge
used to be the main loading in the 38 Special. The cops that used it
said it was very effective, however I heard the load was inaccurate.
I was really amazed at how accurate the loads were from my guns.
Honestly, I would rather have these old loads than some 110gr HP that underpenetrates. Hope that helps. Never heard about the lead skirt causing a problem with barrel obstructions though.

This applies only in two circumstances: First, the bullet is loaded normally, base down, and, Second, to higher than standard pressure for a target load.

If the bullet is loaded hollow base forward, with the solid nose now forming the bullet base, how would you suggest the shirt could pull off and the solid base, being behind the skirt, be blown out leaving the skirt in the bore????????

Yes, they will lead. Expansion is spotty. Other than these go ahead and try it, it has been done for many, many years with no particular problems. Just be sure to only seat the bullet as deep in the case as a 158 semi-wadcutter would be, approximately the center cannellure. Don't try full loads with the bullet seated flush with the case mouth, it will give excessive pressure with even standard loads to do so.

I load at least 1/2 of my wadcutters backwards. But I'm using DEWC's. :-)

I just read an article on this very subject a month or so ago. I think it is in an issue of Handloader, but can't say for sure. I'll see if I can find it. (That's the trouble with getting tooo many gun rags). It also says not to do it, but I don't remember all the reasons. One I do recall, is that the hollow base will fill up quickly making it in effect a solid, and with the heaviest portion being to the rear, it will tumble, providing very poor penetration. A lot of low velocity hollow points do the same thing.

Back in the 70's - way, way back before reliable hollow point bullets were manufactured, it was considered the better hollowpoint for short-barreled revolvers.

Now that good jacketed hollowpoint bullets are available, it is no longer practical. Modern JHPs are far superior for the purpose. Hornady 125 or 140 XTP JHP will far outperform swaged lead hollow based wadcutters seated backward for penetration, expansion, and weight retention.

Speer's Gold Dot (p/n 4014) 135 gr Short-barrel bullet is well thought of, as well. Same advantages.

Flash

Many years ago before the current rage with hollow point peformance ammo a number of LEO's and their families used a load consisting of the 148 gr. LHBWC seated backwards with a gas check on the base. It was reputed to be a round which would not penetrate walls, etc. and still do significant damage to an assailant. I do not remeber the specifics of the load beyond that.

Thanks for the info fella's! Think I'll give it a pass and stick with the 158 LSWC-HP's for social work. John I was just goofing about the tumbler dust, but I did give some thought a few times!

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Stay safe people!

It seems that a lot of people are missing the point of the reversed hbwc loads. Thirty years ago and to some extent today these were/are popular loads for close range self defense in j-frame and Detective Special revolvers. Their main attraction was that they were only loaded to target load velocities making them very easy to shoot in these light weight guns. If they keyholed at 25 yards, who cared. We are only talking about using them at 7 to 10 yards anyway. I have never experienced nor ever heard of one of these loads causing a barrel obstruction. The only problem I ever did hear of with these loads was that if you shot a perp wearing heavy clothing the bullet would clog and not expand. In this case they would be no worse than a solid and you would rely on your shot placement. My wife carries these in her no dash model 60 with no concerns.

It amazes me what the gun writers will print to get a paycheck, but not as much as the people that repeat it without thinking.

Any hollow point can get clogged and turn it into a solid point, even the most expensive name brand over rated JHP. So the backward HBWC is no worse.

HBWCs are designed to shoot at very low velocities, their back end will obturate at lower velocities, (it's the same design idea as HPs), and will fly front forward at lower velocities than standard bullets, which are back heavy. Turning them around and shooting them at higher velocities is no different than shooting a hollow point, except they are a real bugger to load in a hurry.

And if they do tumble, they are way better than any JHP. Because even if they do clog, a keyholed bullet will make a devastating wound.

I think it strange that if I said I was going to load a JHP to my own specifications, I would quickly be warned of the horrific legal consequences of shooting a crook with a handload.

But a reversed wadcutter seems to be acceptable to the Internet Legal System.

Jim, let me get my fishing poles and tackle box before you open that can of worms.

Have loaded/do load them. Have not had keyholing at 15 yards or less but they are less stable after impact than the standard orientation and they do tend to tumble after impact as any uneven resistance tips them.

The key is to keep the presures and velocities down. I don't load them above 700 fps. And yes, they are a pain to chamber quickly. The advantage I see is reduced penetration. They seem no better or worse than modern hollow points within these parameters.

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Big bang, much smash'em.

I once attended an autopsy of a bad guy who took a 148 HBWC at about 5 or 6 feet range, fired from a S&W Model 36. Very experienced coroner did the post, commented that it was about the most destructive handgun wound he had ever seen. Recovered bullet was a near-perfect mushroom measuring a little over 1/2" diameter with nearly full weight retention.

Since then I have loaded many of these and tested them extensively. I remember settling on a load of 3 grains Bullseye, bullet seated fully and heavily crimped. Fired from revolvers with 2" to 4" barrels accuracy was comparable to same bullets seated conventionally out to 25 feet. Beyond that distance accuracy dropped off considerably, and tumbling was diagnosed via "keyholes" in the targets.

Heavier powder charges might conceivably blow through the bullet at the center, with a possibility of leaving the tubular remnants of a bullet in the bore (although I did not experience that, I did not wish to push the limits).

One gallon milk jugs filled with water are utterly destroyed by hydraulic force, and the bullet seldom penetrated fully to the backstop. Cans of tomatoes erupt in an impressive manner, again with bullets seldom penetrating to the backstop. Various clothing items, up to leather jacket material, was tested with no discernable difference in performance.

Penetration through car doors was less than 50%. Penetration through auto side windows was good only when the angle was dead-on, any deviation resulted in deflection. Penetration through car windshields was nearly impossible to achieve.

Rapid reloading is very difficult, even with speedloaders, as the blunt cartridge end must be fed straight into the chambers of the cylinder.

My conclusions: a very effective round when used at short range against soft-tissue targets, diminished accuracy beyond 25 feet, unreliable penetration against any target offering significant resistance, significantly longer time required to reload.

My old S&W Model 37 remains loaded with these to this day.

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Life of the party until 8:00PM

I just loaded a test batch with a few backwards just to see. Load is LHBWC over 3.0gr Bullseye, Federal SP primer, seated 1/16" over the case rim with a good crimp. I plan to take these to the range tomorrow to test fire and will report back on the results.

Bill

Update: FWIW
Went to the range today with the loads above and my non-scientific results were...

6" K38 @ 25 yds from a bag - (Loaded Normally) Shots were 6" low on both my reloads and factory loaded ammo indicating that the velocity versus the bullet weight is too low for that distance. Accuracy was spotty as well.

6" K38 @ 10 yds offhand - (Loaded Normally) - Shots were dead on to POA and grouped within 1" on three shot groups. Exactly the same with the backwards loads.

3" Model 10 @ 10 yds offhand - (Loaded backwards) - Same results as in the K38.

2" Model 442 @ 10 yds offhand - Loaded backwards) - Accuracy was poor and the final shot of a three shot group showed signs of keyholing from the short barrel.

No signs of leading in any of the revolvers.

I experimented with this idea for quite a while in the 1980s. Used them in a S&W 36, incidentally. Used store-bought HBWCs. Couldn't get good results, no matter what powder charge I used. Accuracy wsas nil, and they leaded heavily, even after I ran them through a lubricator-sizer. I couldn't conduct any meaningful penetration or expansion tests. I soon gave up on the idea.

Others have mentioned the gas check. If you want any accuracy, and to cut down on leading, you should put a gas check on the nose (which is now the base of the bullet).
The HBWC is sub-caliber; it depends on the "skirt" expanding to obdurate correctly. If the bullet does not obdurate, the rifling does not grip the bullet well enough and the gas blow-by in the barrel will cause severe leading.
If you must have a hollow point, you can cast one (a one-bullet-at-a-time proposition) or buy the factory made ones. They will perform better and be less trouble to mess with.
FWIW, I am apprently the only person in the world sticking with the 158 gr RNL or the 148 gr DBWC. But I'm old and don't know any better.

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and what his trumpet saith

I saw a show some time ago that showed the guys in WW1 loading mauser bullets backwards because they couldn't penetrate the armor we were hiding behind in the trenches,but it would 'shrapnel' the rust and debri off the backside of the plates and mes up the guys eyes and faces, claiming the backwards bullet hit harder

I have looked at this since I saw a pic of the Bluebunny ammunition.
I have found that if you use Berry's plated hollow base wadcutters they do not have a very deep hollow base, you can load them hot say 4.5 to 5 grains of Unique or 4 grains of Bullsey with no presure signs.
Do not know the velocites but out of a Detective Special they are accurate and they penetrate almost 2 Chicago phone books and mushroom double there size.

nicky, You're not alone. I have some 158gr RNL around, but no mould, so once they're gone they're done. I do have a 150gr RNL mould that will do very nicely. Also never used any 148gr DEWCs either since my moulds are for regular 148gr. WCs. Since I'm a .41 fanatic I have moulds for a wide variety of WCs, LRNs, SWCs and even a TC for my .41AE. I think HPs are too over rated for self defense situations. I no longer have any use for factory ammo or bullets.

HBWCs loaded skirt forward are reasonably accurate and expand like crazy when loaded to STANDARD WADCUTTER VELOCITIES. Unfortunately, they don't penetrate very well. When the velocity is increased, the web at the closed end of the bullet blows out with the potential of leaving part of a bullet in the barrel as an obstruction. When this happens, accuracy is poor and projectiles tumble. I have tried overcoming this by swedging a gas check to the solid end of the bullet then loading it with the hollow base forward.

I did not get satisfactory results and decided a that a heavy, blunt nosed bullet at moderate velocity was my choice. Made up my mind 40 years ago and have not seen anything since to make me change it.

Penetration is not the greatest,but even out of a snub nose they do expand.....

I hate to admit this but in my younger, more foolish years I drilled out jacketed hollowpoint bullets (just a little) and trickled in a few granuels of bullseye in the cavity. Then pushed in a small pistol primer over it to cause ignition on impact. The loaded rounds looked wierd with a primer on each end. But they worked...too well in that the powder blew the front of the bullet off like shrapnel upon impact.

Now that I am old, but still foolish (only in different matters), I will not do that sort of thing again.

Rafter-S

I wondered about reverse-loaded wadcutters myself, once.
Than it occurred to me that using mechanical devices for ends they were not intended for, usually gets one into trouble, sooner or later.
Like.. it's possible to drive screws into wood with a hammer, but the proper way (to use a screwdriver) is a safer bet.
(Once forces are exerted on a bullet it acts as a mechanical device inside the gun, doens't it ?)

The Blue Bunny loads clocked at about 880fps out of a 2" Model 640 and penetrated 15+ inches in permagel.
One issue is that they tend to turn sideways after about 7 yards. That isn't necessarily a bad thing but the load is meant mainly for the snub, which lives within that distance.
Mr Wall, our engineer who posts here sometimes, mentioned he had loaded some HBWCs backwards in the 1960s and gave them to a guy, who ended up using them on 3 people (and going to jail for it but thats another story). The guy reported that the loads "opened the fellow up like frog."

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"Vus ken men tin?" -Irving

Just for clarification:

obdurate is an adjective meaning "hardened in wickedness or wrongdoing."

obturate is a verb meaning (in this instance) "to close (a hole or cavity) so as to prevent a flow of gas through it, esp. the escape of explosive gas from a gun tube during firing."

Now, a Patridge sight is . . . . . . . . .

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Georgia On My Mind

What a country. You defend yourself from some low life piece of **** and assumably you are in fear for your life, so you shoot him. After the fact, you are judged as to whether you tried to kill him humanely or kill him like a gentleman.

If some creaton is trying to hurt me or my family, it should not matter if I use a grenade or a slingshot. The reason that many of these creeps do what they do is because they do not fear the consequences. When the criminal is more afraid of us than we are of them, then we will have our country back.

Sorry for the rant, but this just really jacks me up.

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James Redfield
LM #497

The Rabbi, I'd like to hear that story, it sorta fits another thread that's run here once in a while. Thanks

probably the best sight to use for hunting partridge with your K-22. However, there are those who prefer a Baughman ramp with a red insert.

I loaded a box or two of backward HBWC bullets, some with 2.5 gr of BE, some with 3.5, about 43 years ago. Both loads mushroomed perfectly in dirt/sand which left RNL generally undamaged. I do not recall the accuracy, except that it must not have been bad enough to notice. There were no problems. These were all shot out of my Model 40.

This old dead horse again? Okay, I'll get in a few whacks. Back in the mid-70s, I loaded up some backwards HBWCs, primarily for my aunt. She was about 4'8" tall, with hands to match and some arthritis, and was having trouble with any factory ammo she could find for her little Model 36. She had not found any target wadcutters. I do not recall the load I worked up, but I do recall that it was slightly faster than factory wadcutters. I believe I used either Red Dot or Unique powder. My results were essentially identical to those reported by Lobo, above. Great expansion, not much penetration, poor accuracy beyond 12-15 yards, and occasional keyholing. I tried them in my 4" Model 10, and if I recall correctly, got fewer keyholes, but it's been too many years for me to be sure. My aunt was pleased, since the loads handled much easier than any factory ammo she'd tried, and she could hit well enough with them at 10 yards, which was all she wanted. The little revolver was still loaded with some of them when she died about 10 years ago.