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Old 10-05-2009, 06:10 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Default Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added

This is also posted in the ammo section but wanted to get some opinions from folks that know primers.

Has anyone read or experianced problems with Hornady CD Ammo??

I was testing some Hornady Critical Defense 9mm 115gr FTX

Out of box of 25 I had at least 5 that did not go off. I was using my Kahr PM9 which eats and fires anything. I also shot 2 magazines of Remington Golden Sabers, Speer Gold Dots and my own handloads with Wolf primers, with zero malfunctions.

I called Hornady and they are sending a UPS call take to pick up.

These look like they are struck hard enough to me??

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Old 10-05-2009, 06:23 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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It appears to me that they should have gone BANG!
It'll be interesting to see IF you get follow-up from Hornady - I should think you should - they're big but not like WW or Rem.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:24 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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It could be because it is off center. It also looks as though the firing pin might be a tad sharp and tried to pierce the primer instead of smashing it. I've always bee told that that a primer may fail to go off if struck off center, simply because the high part of the anvil is in the center, and if the anvil in the primer isn't struck, the mix won't go off.

The strikes on these cartridges completely miss the center.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Griffith View Post
It could be because it is off center. It also looks as though the firing pin might be a tad sharp and tried to pierce the primer instead of smashing it. I've always bee told that that a primer may fail to go off if struck off center, simply because the high part of the anvil is in the center, and if the anvil in the primer isn't struck, the mix won't go off.

The strikes on these cartridges completely miss the center.
I agree.Many guns fail to hit the center "perfectly" and still do just fine.It appears as though the pin may be hitting a little too far off.The high part of the anvil is in the center.If the firing pin is sharp,that's something else that needs to be addressed.Has this same gun done well with other ammo?
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:47 PM
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Talk to Hornady, they should have fired.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD1 View Post
This is also posted in the ammo section but wanted to get some opinions from folks that know primers.

Has anyone read or experianced problems with Hornady CD Ammo??

I was testing some Hornady Critical Defense 9mm 115gr FTX

Out of box of 25 I had at least 5 that did not go off. I was using my Kahr PM9 which eats and fires anything. I also shot 2 magazines of Remington Golden Sabers, Speer Gold Dots and my own handloads with Wolf primers, with zero malfunctions.

I called Hornady and they are sending a UPS call take to pick up.

These look like they are struck hard enough to me??


First box I tried in my "trusty" S & W airweight Model 37 (nickel... it's a beauty!). Had a no-fire on the second round... primer was dented pretty good. I think we should ALL contact Hornaday and let them know we won't be buying their ammo any more and why. If this had been a gun fight... I might be dead!!!
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:54 PM
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I have had the same problem in one revolver I have. It is a Beretta Laramie in 38spl.

Mine rolls too far to the right (from the rear) and Magtech primers will not ignite. Wolf will. What I did was put the headstamp up, so when the round was in "battery" so to speak, I could tell which way I was out of alignment.

It was a fault with the firearm, not the ammunition. Run them through another firearm and see what they do.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:30 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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As I mentioned I have never had a failure to fire with this gun. Thus was my first box of Hornady CD 9mm and had this. Leads me to believe it's the ammo not the gun. All the ones that fired have the indent in the same place

I keep a log book on every new gun I buy for SD and record all ammo, number of rounds and any failures. I usually am looking for gun failures such as fail to feed, fail to eject and other jamming. I just pulled out my records. Without listing every date (start 9/2007), I have around 600-700 rds through this gun with PMC, WWB, Fiochi, Magtec, Corbon,Blazer Brass, Rem, Speer Win Ranger, Fed Hydo, Fed HSt and handloads. NEVER a failed primer.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:09 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Man, it looks like the whole face of the primer is collapsed into that firing pin strike.


I think they should've gone off. It might be a just a bad combination, but is'nt that why we test for reliability? Maybe you'll get some free ammo anyway.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:54 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Definately looks like they should have gone bang. I will remember to avoid Hornady loaded ammo. It doesn't look like your firing pin is unnecessarily pointed to me, maybe narrower than most. I'd bet it was a
defective batch of primers.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:41 PM
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They look like good solid strikes to me...
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:41 AM
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I have fired several boxes of CD rounds through my Rohrbaugh R9S and I've never had an issue. The strikes from my pistol are lighter than that and it fires every time.
The Rohrbaugh is sensitive to hard primers. I've had FTFire issues with Remington "Green Box" and Winchester "White Box" but never with the Hornady ammo.

Those strikes look good to me and should have fired.

I'm curious as to Hornady's explanation for your issue (especially since it goes in my carry gun). Thanks for posting and please let us know how it all pans out.

Regards,
Arkdweller
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:50 AM
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I think bad ammo. If you have a few left, try it in another gun for fun.
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Old 10-06-2009, 12:41 PM
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I have absolutley no experience with Kahr firearms, and to keep from asking a really stupid question could you post a picture of the primers from some of the rounds that did go bang?
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Old 10-06-2009, 01:14 PM
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The dents are plenty deep, and not nearly far enough off center for that to matter. Bad primers, for sure. I recently commented to a friend that I've had more bad primers in factory ammo in the past year than I've seen in the last 40 years combined. I've been seeing overly hard primers failing to fire in guns that have ALWAYS hit hard enough, along with primers like yours, with deep enough dents that they should have fired, but didn't. Somewhere, QC has gone down the toilet. My problems of late have been with Fiocchi, WW white box, and Remington. No issues yet with Hornady or any other brand, but I've not bought any factory Hornady in over a year. This kind of problem sure shouldn't be cropping up in self-defense ammo.
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Old 10-06-2009, 01:35 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
I have absolutley no experience with Kahr firearms, and to keep from asking a really stupid question could you post a picture of the primers from some of the rounds that did go bang?
Not a stupid question at all. First thing I checked. The fired ones look the same except for a small indent as explained in the manual at bottom of page 20.

http://www.kahr.com/DL/kahrmanual.pdf


Here is a pic also.

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Old 10-06-2009, 01:56 PM
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Thanks OCD1, what I'm wondering is if the firearm could have fired out of battery, and did you try to fire the rounds a second time?

I found some fired small primers in my loading room that had strikes in the same general location as yours. I pulled the anvils out of them and the indents were still over the anvil.
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:21 PM
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hard enough hit....just too far off center to me. punch em out and hit em hit a hammer and see if they go bang. that will prove if not being centered is the problem....................
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:27 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
Thanks OCD1, what I'm wondering is if the firearm could have fired out of battery, and did you try to fire the rounds a second time?

I found some fired small primers in my loading room that had strikes in the same general location as yours. I pulled the anvils out of them and the indents were still over the anvil.

A few of them I did put back in the magazine and fired. They did go off then after a double strike. As the pistol is striker fired I can not just pull the trigger again (one and only thing that Taurus can do)

I could put these 4 duds in any of my other 9mm or even the same gun and they will probably fire but then i would have none to send back to Hornady. I am 99.9999999% sure its the ammo based on my past documented record of every round I fired in the gun. When factory ammo was cheap and plenty, I would not hesitate to go back to the range and run through a few more boxes. But at $20+ for 25, not gonna happen. I'll load some plated bullets and some xtps and try them.
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:31 PM
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Let us know what Hornady has to say, please.
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Old 10-06-2009, 02:52 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Exclamation Here is what I have to say...................

Use components that you can be relatively sure WILL go bang every time and practice like none of them will.

Clearing drills are smart planning if you carry a semi-auto for self defense.

As 38-44 has noticed, more failures to fire with current factory ammo. You have mentioned that NONE of your handloads have failed to feed of fire.

Seems simple to me as to what to carry for personal protection.

I may use their bullets but not their ammo.


FWIW
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:52 PM
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Skip's post got me thinking, we may have almost come full-circle to where many of us were back in the early 80s, when we could home-roll self-defense ammo that was more effective AND more reliable, especially in our semi-autos, than anything the factories made. I've got enough high-end self-defense ammo that was manufactured a few years back squirrelled away that it won't be a concern for me for awhile, if ever, but I just might have to start carrying reloads again! Holy smokes!! Can't believe I said it!

As for concerns about the off-center strikes, I've shot 1911s that hit the primer so far off center that the edge of the pin indent actually was on the edge of the primer cup, and they still went "bang" every time. Not optimal, obviously, but if the anvil is made correctly, the original poster's primers are as good as dead-centered.
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Old 10-06-2009, 03:56 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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I'll just stick with what I know has always worked in all my 9mm's and .380's

Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers

Will update after Hornady inspects these rounds but no matter what they do or say I will not buy or use Critical Defense ammo. Their regular .380 and .32 auto work fine in my mouse guns so I do not know why they had to mess with success.?
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Old 10-06-2009, 04:48 PM
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+1 Skip. I'll keep rolling my own for "critical defense" situations... but I will start a visual inspection procedure on all the Fed GMM primers I use in my SD loads.
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:26 PM
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That is a fairly small diameter indent, but as y'all said, plenty deep. All my handguns (and rifles for that matter) have larger diameter dimples.

I don't know what primer Hornady uses, but it would be interesting to see if other rounds (non Hornady) had the same problem with the same mfgr. primers. Not likely we'll find out unless someone from Hornady trolls this forum.
I've never had a problem with any Hornady ammo myself, but their XTP hollow points won't feed in my Dan Wesson 1911 when loaded by me. Seems to be an ogive (or lack thereof) thing. It's a match chamber, I'm not faulting Hornady for that.

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Old 10-06-2009, 09:44 PM
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Default Off center primer hits

Yes, those are off center primer hits, but the rounds should have gone off fine. My S&W Mod. 76 where the firing pin damm near hits all over the primer and goes very deep, But it all wise goes off.

I would contact Hornary right away and tell them what happend. This sort of ammo, or any ammo, should go off every time. Save all the bad and unfired ammo and the box so they can have all the lot info. Sounds like a big Recall is in order, But a recall saves a life it's worth it.

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Old 10-07-2009, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
I'll keep rolling my own for "critical defense" situations...
All I carry is handloads, I just can't justify 1$, or more, per round for the fancy stuff. I Usually just put Nosler or XTP hollow points over a healthy charge of Power Pistol. Make sure the guns reliable with the load and off I go.
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:51 PM
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Default Well folks, after several e mails and phone calls....

I finally got Hornady to issue a call tag to pick up the ammo, took three e mails and at least as many phone calls. here is their reply. I will have the gun checked out but for a 25 round box of ammo with 4-5 live ones returned I find the response well, so so.




I recently got the opportunity to look into your return of 9mm 115 grain Critical Defense ammunition. Misfires in a self defense handgun can be very unsettling and it is definitely a problem worth some attention.

In complaints of misfires there are a few measurements I look at that can give obvious cues as to what the problem is. The first measurement I took was cartridge headspace. Headspace is a measurement of a specific dimension of the the cartridge case that determines how the round will "seat" in the chamber. If a headspace is too long than the cartridge may not chamber at all. If it is too short there can be problems with misfires. SAAMI specification for headspace of the 9mm cartridge is .744" - .754". I measured the headspace of the misfired rounds you sent in and determined the headspace values to be .747", .747", .747" and .748". These are within specification and therefore I ruled out headspace as the culprit of this problem.

Next I checked the primers. To start with I will explain the term "all fire." An all fire is the depth that a firing pin must penetrate a primer for 100% reliable primer ignition. The requirement for an all fire is .017". I carefully measured the depth at which your firing pin struck these primers and found the depths to be .013", .014", .014" and .015". These strikes are very close to all fire limit and I think very well explain your situation. I'm assuming that the remainder of the box was shot successfully and the only misfires were sent to us.

Next I sent the misfired rounds down to our lab to be test fired. We do not have the specific model of Kahr in our inventory that you have. However, we do have a Kahr MK9 which seems to be a very similar design. All four of the misfired rounds fired on the first primer strike and functioned the gun flawlessly.

The .017" for an all fire is not like crossing a magic line and being able to say, "These are .016" and will never fire." Ammunition fired from guns that are striking primers in a very borderline manner can show this flip-flop behavior. Your firing pin penetration depths on the misfires were very close to the requirement for an all fire and I think the issue is simply that your firing pin is striking primers right at or slightly under the requirement causing an occasional misfire but usually firing successfully. Lastly this is also likely the explanation for why different ammunition works fine out of the gun as different manufacturers use different primers that can have slightly different hardness's. Our primers, while still in spec, are very likely a little harder than those in the Speer and Remington that you report as functioning fine. In short I would strongly suggest taking your firearm to a gunsmith or sending it in to Kahr for a quick look over. A few small tweaks to the firing pin or its spring is likely all it will take to make this gun 100% reliable with all types of ammunition.

As a result of being unable to find any defect in the ammunition itself I must hold off at this time in issuing a return. However, if you have the firearm checked and it comes back with a clean bill of health with no findable faults I would be more than happy to send you out a new lot of 9mm Critical Defense ammunition.

Here is most of what I wrote back:


I can not dispute your information as you have the instruments, technology and experience in measuring such things. But look at it from a customer practical standpoint.. You also "assumed the rest fired" which they did not. I rechambered several and restruck them, then they fired
As I believe I mentioned in my letter, I have fired over 400 rounds of ammo through this gun of many different brands, plus my own reloads using CCI, Winchester and Wolf primers and have never had a failure to ignite a primer. I buy your new brand and have a problem. Not a problem with feeding or ejecting which occurs with some guns/ammo combination, but failure to ignite which I have never had in a factory load. Photographs of the primer strikes shared with experienced reloaders all concurred that the strike was hard and deep enough that it should have ignited. I also mentioned that I re- chambered some of the misfires and yes, they did go off on the second strike which to me indicates a high primer. You did not mention this possibility in your report.

So the bottom line is that Remington, Winchester, PMC, Fiochi, MagTech, Speer, Federal, Blazer Brass, Speer, and reloads all fire, but only the new Hornady CD does not, therefore it's the gun? I find that difficult to comprehend.
I have every round fired written in a log by date, quantity and any noted failures.

I will relay your information to the members of several reloading forums I belong to as they were interested in the outcome.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:08 PM
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have always carried my own loaded ammo in all carry guns. this is just another reason to continue,but also why we test carry ammo to be sure it works in our own guns. since speer gold dots and remington sabers are usually available as components, that's what i use.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:43 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Well thats unfortunate that they wouldn't stand behind there product, and try and compensate you in some way. I guess its just easier to blame your gun than it is to take ownership of there product.

Good luck and I guess I know which ammo you, and I WON'T be buying now. FWIW, I only shoot my own reloads anyway.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:19 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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After my reply to them, they wrote me back saying they did check the primer seating depth and that it was within SAAMI specs. I replied that that measurement was useless as the primer had already been struck by the firing pin, so yes a second strike will probably set it off. They also said that the primers they are using are very hard which I replied so are the CCI and Wolf that I use.

They then offered to send me a new box from a different lot number but feared I would have the same problem due to the "hard" primers.

If I send it back to Kahr and they test fire it with some other brand and it fires, then Kahr will say it's fine.

Round and Round we go
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:19 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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I hate to say this but if my guns firing pin was that off center I would look at the gun first. Not defending hornady by no means, but when I looked at the photo's, I did not blame the ammo. Off to the side hits and not too deep would send me a signal, regardless of what brand shoots or not. Some primers are more sensitive and would fire but why would you not what a gun to be 100%. I just sent back a revolver to S&W because the firing pin was too small. Firing pin hits were center and just a tad more shallow than what I observed from your gun. Most of the ammo I shot went bang, but when I shot blazer 38 special RNL ammo, one out of five failed to fire. Got the gun back from S&W and no more issues. They put in a longer firing pin. Without a doubt I would have that gun sent back and put into spec. That firing pin hit, is not in spec from what I seen in those photo's. I would not trust that pistol regardless of what I had in it until it was corrected and it would shoot all ammunition hard and centered.
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:36 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocojo View Post
I hate to say this but if my guns firing pin was that off center I would look at the gun first. Not defending hornady by no means, but when I looked at the photo's, I did not blame the ammo. Off to the side hits and not too deep would send me a signal, regardless of what brand shoots or not. Some primers are more sensitive and would fire but why would you not what a gun to be 100%. I just sent back a revolver to S&W because the firing pin was too small. Firing pin hits were center and just a tad more shallow than what I observed from your gun. Most of the ammo I shot went bang, but when I shot blazer 38 special RNL ammo, one out of five failed to fire. Got the gun back from S&W and no more issues. They put in a longer firing pin. Without a doubt I would have that gun sent back and put into spec. That firing pin hit, is not in spec from what I seen in those photo's. I would not trust that pistol regardless of what I had in it until it was corrected and it would shoot all ammunition hard and centered.
I linked to that issue on post #16. They are off center but are very deep.They are not light strikes. of center yes.

Bottom of page 20 shows the primer strike of a Kahr

http://www.kahr.com/DL/kahrmanual.pdf
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:03 PM
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I would have the lock up on the gun checked.the firing pin should be in the center.there actually may be two problems.hard primer and off center.
just because its deep does not mean its right.plainly the hit is off.
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:38 PM
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Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added Do these primers look like they should have gone bang?//Response from Hornady added  
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While it's not a handgun or Hornady issue, I used to shoot a lot of trap with my Browning Superposed. At the Grand American the use of factory ammo is required. I had a bunch of Winchester AA ammo go 'click' and I took it back to their tent on the grounds. I heard back from them a couple months later with the answer.
Sir, your model 12 has an excessive headspace issue.
I've been shooting Federal ammo for the years since then in my shotguns, rifles and handguns when factory ammo is used.
Good luck getting your non-fire issue resolved to your satisfaction.
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