My whitetail 44 mag. ammo inventory is getting a little low. In the past for hunting ammo I always used factory ammo. Because I prefer to shoot lower powered reloads for pleasure, it was easier just to buy a box or two of the hot stuff. But now with the price and availability of factory good hunting ammo, reloading makes more sense than ever.

Cast vs jacketed seems to turn into a Ford vs Chevy debate at times. Is it better to use a 250 grn. Keith style bullet and get maximum penetration or a 240 grn. JHP/JSP and hope for expansion and more energy transfer into the deer? The pistol I plan on using this year is a 6 " barreled 629 Classic, so my load can't be too hot. The deer around here can run pretty sizable, with good bucks running well into the mid 250 pound range, and 300 pounds is not all uncommon.

I have both style bullets available and a selection of powder. So what do you think???

I've used both and yes it's a ford vs Chevy thing.For deer sized game,I've gravitated towards jacketed 240 SPs driven to max velocity.You will find that many who frequent this forum prefer heavy cast at lower velocity.I won't debate with anyone about it.They each have strengths and weaknesses.

Welcome to the forum!

I like the Keith bullet very much, and it's really hard to go wrong with a cast bullet, but for whitetails (even big ones) I prefer the expanding bullets. Energy doesn't kill an animal, so I don't worry about that anymore, (though I admit I used to), A hole through the vitals kills, plain and simple. The expanding bullet just makes a bigger hole in those vitals, causing a quicker death. I will only use an expanding bullet that will hold together on big deer/pigs, etc. though, like the XTP's or Nosler partitions or Speer plated bullets. Whatever you use, shot placement is the most important thing. Enjoy your hunt!

I have shot 2 does this year with Hornady 240 grain XTP bullets that not only penatrated great but left their lungs a mess. I am shooting them in my 9 1/2" SuperRedhawk.

there will be 5 Marlin rifles in the fields here in Indiana this year with 44Mag 240gr JSP/JHP bullets that I have loaded.

The main reason though is firearm. I have had a "Dicken's" of a time getting these Marlin 1894 rifles to shoot my lead bullets accurately enough out to 100 yards with my cast bullets. Of course, I am trying to get all the velocity out of them that I can, 1800fps or so. Not fortunate enough at this point to get an accurate load though.

The JSP/JHP bullets are either bulk Remington, Winchester or boxed Speer bullets. All will shoot "minute of clay pigeon" at 100 yards.

Someone suggested using a different measurement for accuracy to me today, checkers. The range gets shorter, 50 yards and he uses open sights but he shoots "minute of checkers" at that range!

The through and through of the Keith is a plus from a handgun. 2 holes bleeding from a nice square shoulder on one of those is a good thing, provided they are place in the boiler room. That's the part that is up to you though. If you hit them in the hoof, it doesn't matter what bullet you use!

I have used Speer 225 HP and 240 gr solids. With the HP's, I have destroyed a lot of meat, using a 44 Special, even when shot at greater than 50 yards. With non-expanding bullet, it is just a large punch-press, and a lung shot "should" bring the deer down from blood loss in about 50-100 yards with minimal blood-shot damage to good meat. My butcher yelled at me a lot.
I will bow to superior experience, however, and perhaps the HP devotees have much more time in the field.
Sonny

I've taken a lot of big game with revolvers using cast slugs, never had a problem, ever. The main reason I like them is, there's no bad angles with cast, you will get penetration from end to end on white tails & even bigger game. Took 11 animals last year all with cast, had to shoot my bear twice, he was wiggling a little bit, he was done for but you don't take chances.
Having said all this, if I were an eastern white tail hunter I would most likely use a nice, soft jacketed slug for a little more shock. Most eastern hunters use a treestand & the deer is, for the most part unalarmed & you can wait for a classic broadside shot, out here in the west thats almost unheard of, so I want penetration & 2 holes. I don't like hard cast slugs, I want them as soft as I can get away with & still have good accuracy.
One of 6 hogs taken with an OM Ruger 41 magnum & 230 gr Keith.



Badger, taken 3 days ago, Lipsey's 44 special & 250 gr Keith.



Late season cow elk, Ruger OM 45, 260 gr Keith.



My best bear (6' 9") spring of 08, Ruger 10" 44 magnum, 250 gr Keith.



Bull moose, 4 years ago, Ruger SRH 480, 370 gr. softnose cast, all of these were 1 shot kills with complete penetration.



Dick

Had a bad experience with a hollow point .44 mag with my first whitetail kill, switched to a hard cast 240 SWC at around 1200 fps and have been useing it ever since. Big hole in, big hole out, every time does the trick. As previously mentioned shot placement is important.

__________________
Stay safe people!

Thanks for the replies. Since most of my shots are close (35 yards or less) I'll try some 240 grn. XTP's to start. I really like shooting cast, but the idea of a larger wound channel and heavier blood trail sounds appealing.

Different experiences affect choices.For what it's worth,the Hornady 240 gr XTP is an excellent bullet.Use it with confidence.

Sixshot-
Welcome to the forum!
Nice entrance too! There ain't no denying what a good cast bullet can do, and you are right about eastern deer hunting conditions.

The main reason I like the XTP is because where I have been deer hunting the last several years, we have to hunt near (like 50 yards and less) the neighboring property, and we need the deer to be down as fast as absolutely possible to keep them on our side of the drainage ditch. The neighbors have poached deer off our side, and we called them on it. Now things are strained relations wise.
If I hunted out where you are, my guns would be loaded with a cast bullet 95% of the time.

Nice collection of animals.

I think your choice of the XTP is an excellent one under the conditions you describe, another great 44 jacketed slug is the 270 gr Speer Gold Dot, used it on a cow elk about 5 years ago out of a SRH, worked great, with good penetration.

This is a 3X2 buck taken in 2007, 357 Maximum & 173 gr Keith, 108 yds, one shot.



Mountain Lion, taken at 5 ft, 357 magnum, 173 gr Keith, one shot.



Wyoming fork horn buck 2008, Ruger 41 magnum, 230 gr Keith, he was facing me staight on at about 80 yds, shot went through the center chest & exited in front of right hind quarter, ran 40 yds, maybe 5 seconds!



One of 2 doe's taken in Montana last year, Ruger 41 Bisley, 230 gr Keith, first one at 15 yds, & I got extremely lucky on the second, it was running at about 85 yds, one shot, down & out.



This is the second doe, the one that was running, for certain it was a lucky shot.



Dick



Dick

Sixshot,

Great pictures. I see on the Mt Lion pic it says 5 ft!

How did you manage or get into that??

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

Dick,
Thanks for the pictures! I love it when someone posts what they have taken using the stuff that we all talk about here. Until recently, I didn't even have a digital camera, and I have no pictures that I can post right now. Maybe if I get into the 21 century and buy a scanner or something I can post too. I see that you have, or had the .480 SRH. Do you still? What do you think of it? I wish Ruger had made a 5 hole SBH instead. I think they would have sold like hotcakes. I know a lot of guys that would buy one. Are you listening Ruger?

What was the load you used in that SRH? You mentioned a soft cast 370? Your own, or what?


If you hit that running deer, there may have been some luck, but I'm sure there was a fair amount of skill involved too.

I like the bear track/deer hoove on your leather. It represents what it holds is for now don't it? Kinda makes a statement.

Yes the distance was 5 feet, I was up in the tree with the cat, wanted some really good close up pictures! My plan was to shoot it & then quickly give it a second shot double action..........well, I fired & that cat hit the ground before I could even blink, not very smart looking back. That was 38 years ago.

I still have that 480 SRH & like you I would love a single action 480, it would be superb! I make the softnose cast, they are quite easy to do & you can add more or less lead, depending on how much expansion you want/need. The game warden told me before checking it that we would find the bullet, I said we wouldn't, it went in one side & out the other just like always, but I did get great expansion.
A friend of mine shot his moose 2 years ago with one of my softnose cast slugs in his 41 Redhawk, it was a 230 gr Keith style, the moose was facing us at 68 yds, the shot entered the center chest, went through the diaphram, hitting the heart & one lung, exiting the diaphram & ended up somewhere back in the intestines, something like 5' of penetration.
The lucky shot was one of my most memorable shots in hunting, it was just pouring down rain, I was as soaked as I've ever been & then had to wade the Beaverhead River (Montana) & float the deer across. If you don't gut them they float quite well.
Back in my competition days I did a lot of shooting at moving targets, in 2005 I fired 54,000 rounds, the following year 32,000, in 06 I was ranked #1 nationally in "A" class revolver, I'm 65 now, the young guys can outrun me & my competition days are over.
The bear track on the Barranti holster is his Signature Series line of holsters, he's probably the premier holster maker in the US, you can check out his website, mine is serial #1.

This is the Northwest Hunter rig by Barranti



My buddies bull moose, taken with his 41 Redhawk & 230 gr softnose cast.


The bull didn't move 10 yds.

Dick

Thanks for the updates Dick.
That is just plain cool.

Did you get the idea from Ross Seyfreid for the soft nose casts? I have several articles from him and a couple of others on how to do it with great results, and complete adherence of soft to hard lead.

You have some great pictures there.

Interesting holster.It's sort of a Tom Threepersons with an extension covering the trigger guard.Very good design.

For whatever it's worth,if I were hunting game of the elk/moose class with a handgun,I would also use a heavy cast bullet.With one exception where I had no choice,I've always used a rifle for such.I've killed several moose and bear and always with a rifle (with an exception with a bear).

You're a very good pistol shot.

Boy, those would be great to see!
Thanks for sharing all this!

Dick, are you adopting by any chance or needing a Caddy ? I've got lotsa lead too.

__________________
~~ most everyone wants to harvest, yet so few to plow ~~

I'm hunting with my cast bullets this year. I see no real need for an expanding bullet for my purposes, and I know that even a relatively light load, such as my RCBS 44-250-K bullet at 1000 fps will completely penetrate our small Florida deer, no matter what angle shot I take.

Now, with my .357 Magnum and 358429, I'm much less likely to take a "Texas heart shot", but any broadside shot should still be fine. Either caliber, a shot to break the shoulders and another in the boiler room should yield plenty of meat, as long as I'm patient enough to wait for the shot and accurate enough to make it.

Great pictures Sixshot!
Couple of questions: for your softpoints what is the proportion/how much pure lead do you add back to ww? Also, do you have much leading with your 357 loads or do you use gaschecks?
Thanks for a great discussion backed up with photos
Bob

I did get the idea from Ross Seyfried's article & its worked great many times. If you think you need a little more "smack" & still want great penetration this is the way to get there.
One of 3 Warthogs taken in South Africa, one with the FA 475 & 370 gr cast.



Pretty good buck, Ruger 357 Maximum, 173 gr Keith.



One of 2 feral hogs taken in Texas with a knife, believe me, this can get pretty wild!




Two Javelinas taken in west Texas, spring of 08 using an OM Ruger 41 shortie, 230 gr Keith, this little hunt got very exciting when I hit the varmint call.


The cow elk shown in the snow was taken at 168 yds, I tell the distance because I had a witness shooting her with a range finder as she worked her way down the ridge, my last 4 elk have been with the Ruger 45 colt.

Dick

So Dick,
you say you have a F/A 83 in .475? That is what I have too. I am sending it back for the barrel to be chopped to 6". I prefer that length for general use/ease of carry etc. I really like this gun!

Do you hang out over on Graybeard's site BTW?

Here is my F/A without scope as it is right now. It is one of only two non Smiths I own-

There has been some good information and great pictures shared in this thread. Thanks again to everyone that has posted.

I like those Rugers you are using in the photos Sixshot. Normally I hunt with a scoped Redhawk, but this year the urge to use open sights and the looks of the 629 won out.

Bob, I use a 380 case with a wire handle, I think it weighs around 100 grs of pure lead, then of course comes the WW alloy water quenched.
Guns 4 Fun, I left my 475 in Africa, my PH wanted it & we worked out a deal we were both happy with, I sent him the dies & mould after I got home, he wanted to whack a buffao with it. I used it on a warthog & a guinea fowl, it was roosting in a tree above me, kind of like shooting a pillow!
Someone ask about GC's, I use them on my 205 gr LBT slugs in the 10" Ruger 357 Maxie. All my other moulds are plain base, I like heavy slugs but I don't run them full throttle, you gain a little velocity & a lot of recoil, in taking big game for 45 years I've never recovered a cast slug, winding them up takes its toll on your accuracy, nerves, life of the gun,, etc. Its an advantage to shoot them as fast as you can but most people can't shoot nearly as well at max velocity. If I"m shooting through deer, elk, moose, bear, antelope & hogs at 1100 fps, why do I need 1300-1400 fps.

Dick

Dick

Amen! Nothing else need be added here.

Sixshot - What's your preference in barrel length for a hunting revolver? I see a good bit of variety in your pictures.

Holster, I've used everything out there as far as barrel length but probably like the 5 1/2" Bisleys the best, of course going 1/2" either way isn't a big difference. What I do with all my sixguns is first, narrow the front sight to 1/10", 99% of them come 1/8" inch, thats why to thick for most of us older guys, we need daylight on either side of that sight, its really bad if you are shooting a 4" barrel gun. My oldest son is a member of the gunmakers guild so he does all my gun work including my competition revolvers. Narrowing them from .125" to .100" makes a huge difference, some people will disagree but they are standing inside an indoor range or shooting outdoors at midday, if you are a hunter you don't get those kinds of conditions very often in the hunting world, its either very early or very late, that buck or bull is standing on the edge of black timber, etc, you have to get a good sight picture with iron sights to be successful. When I shot that cow elk 2 years ago at 168 yds, she was standing in 18" of fresh snow, she looked as big as a bus & the sights were sharp & clear, I knew I could make that shot, under bad conditions where the sights aren't sharp I've passed many times at 50 yds or less. I also paint the front sight white with fingernail polish, I let it dry & then go over it with flourecent orange, this works much better than just using the orange. Again, you are almost working against yourself by going with huge bullets at maximum velocities, if you are somewhere in the 1100-1200 fps range you'll kill anything on the planet with good slugs. Velocity gains you a little flatter trajectory but we're shooting iron sighted revolvers here, how far are you going to shoot? I love the big heavy bullets but the added recoil works against you, its a plus if you can deal with it, most can't but won't change. Its too bad many don't understand the killing effeciency of a big, flat nosed cast slug above 1000 fps, there's no bad angles, I just make sure I'm lined up with the vitals somewhere on the offside & touch it off, I've never lost an animal but I couldn't do that with a jacketed slug. If you have to get rifle type results with your sixguns, better switch back to rifles. Good hunting.

Dick

the deer my 44 has drop didn't care if it was lead or jacketed
they just layed there

Dick,
I started using the orange over white on my front sight about 20 years ago. I learned it from a friend that I shot archery with back then. We used that setup on our sight pins. We used dayglo orange, and green for every other yardage pin. It worked great for that, so I started doing my black front sights that way. It helps tremendously in dark conditions or against a dark background. In dark timber on a black hog, it's almost impossible to pick up the front sight unless you use something like this for a good front sight pickup.

Dick,

Thanks for posting all of the good photos and information. I can honestly say that I have never killed any big game with a handgun. I am 69 now and have three Ruger Bisleys with the Alan Harton treatment - one .41 mag and two in .45 Colt. They all shoot very well with cast bullets.

My grandson is 7 now and has started to hunt with us. I am going to give up the rifles and stick with the iron sighted revolvers. I am willing to wait for the right shot. You are one fine pistolero and a true sportsman.

Ken

Ken, thanks & good for you for taking that grandson, its a special time when they start getting interested in hunting & dad or grandpa are there to help them along, I love it! I really, really need to have Alan build me a 480 Bisley.
Almost got a shot at a buck tonight, he turned away at the last minute instead of following the doe's, I've got 3 more days before heading to Montana.

Dick

Dick, knock 'em dead. Literally.

Dick,

I have two of the Bisley stainless steel Acusport 5.5 inch guns with Harton triggers - .41 and .45. My main hunting handgun will be my 7.5 inch Bisley .45 with Harton trigger and Harton patridge front sight. I shoots really well with nearly everything at about 1100 fps. Alan also checked the cylinder throats and reamed as necessary. Yes, you should let him build you a handgun.

At my age, I need the extra distance between those sights. That .41 will really shoots well though - probably the most inherently accurate handgun I own and will shoot nearly anything I can stuff in the cartridge case. I have never shot a bad group with it.

Again, thanks for the input. My grandson lives in LaPorte, Colorado and we have good connections in several states to hunt on private land. I'm hoping for lots of good time in the outdoors watching him grow into manhood. He is a really good left hand rifle shooter. I bought him a left hand CZ .22 rimfire and I have been collecting Ruger No. 3 carbines for him. I have all of them set up with good variable glass in Millet rings.

Ken

For a heart / lung shot on a whitetail I'll use a cast SWC with a sharp shoulder rather than a JSP or JHP that may, and often does, fail to expand on soft tissue.
Worse case senerio is that I end up with a 44 caliber hole with the cast SWC caused by it's sharp shoulder. If the JSP fails to expand, it will punch a hole just like a round nosed bullet, pushing the skin and then letting the hole close back up partially.

moosedog,

I have no desire to get into a flaming match with anyone and so you have the freedom to accept this or reject it.Before rejecting it, you might consider doing some research on the matter.

I am not saying that swc's are bad because I've been using them for many years but there is a lot of myth and hype surrounding the design that is not accurate.Perception becomes reality.Once something becomes repeated a million times,it becomes fact whether it is or not.

The original conclusion was that because of the cleaner and larger hole made on targets,the sharp shoulder will have the same effect in flesh.This is proven to be false.High speed photo shows clearly that the shock waves do not permit the shoulder to even touch flesh.The shock wave is virtually the same between the various profiles.This is even admitted and acknowledged by Ross Seyfried who's mentor was Keith.

It makes a difference in bone the same way that it makes a difference on card board,etc,etc but not on flesh.The observations that say otherwise are those who see what they expect to see.

canoe- we rarely disagree, but do here. If you read Brian Pearces articles, and I'm pretty sure you do, then you must have just read the one in which he put what you said about the sharp shoulder not cutting to the test. He was able to show that they do indeed make contact with the target, and I'm not talking paper. I am a Ross Seyfreid fan and reader, and in fact have some pesonal correspondences with him here with me. He is a big pusher for the LBT designs, which, while great bullets, and I use them myself, don't cut as clean a hole as the Keith designs.

Pearce's test were pretty well done, and show that the stories going around about the Keith bullet's shoulder not cutting are false. It is in a recent issue of Handloader.

I read & re-read Brian Pearce's article on whether the shoulder makes contact or not (it does) he was marking the shoulder of the bullets with a felt marker & then recovering them, clearly showing the should making contact......but does it really matter, if cast slugs are working for you, keep using them, if you don't like them stay with jacketed.
Cast has worked for me for over 40 years, taking many different animals from moose & elk down to small deer, antelope & hogs, if a cast bullet fails I firmly believe it was because of bullet placement. To me saying a jacketed bullet will work where a cast bullet will fail is totally unbelieveable. Some of the keyboard experts with 1-2 white tails under their belts would have you believe jacketed is the only way to hunt, its simply not true, shoot 30-40 animals with each & give your opinion. On the classic broadside shot at an unsuspecting deer I'll give the edge to jacketed, how often do you get the classic broadside shot?

Dick

Sixgun,

I'm not sure if your response is to me or not.If it is,I don't recall ever saying that the cast bullet is inferior.I understand the advantages of both and I'm certainly not one who's only shot deer.

There are times when I seriously question the reading comprehension of some of the forum members.I've been frequently accused of saying what I have not said.

Perhaps your post was not directed at me.

Canoe, the original post was, jacketed or cast for whitetails, I was directing my comment to that. I do think there are many who use a certain slug once or twice & if they fail its the bullets fault, if they suceed, that bullet is the only one that works, just human nature I guess. I stated quite a few times that if I were an eastern white tail hunter or maybe hunting a small parcel in Texas, someplace where I didn't want my deer to get off the property, then I'd probably opt for a jacketed HP, I do think they add a little more smack & then for sure give the gunner some expansion. I think this is where they really shine, if the correct one is chosen.
Where I live (Idaho) the shots are normally longer, the deer almost always has seen me & the shot is very seldom on level ground or classic broadside, to me a cast slug is tailor made for big game for these reasons. But because I've taken so much game with cast I only use cast regardless of where I'm hunting, that includes Texas, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Alaska & Africa, give me cast & I'll be happy.
My mind was made up many years ago, now there are some very fine jacketed slugs on the market that will do some of the things a cast slug will do, that is, deep penetration & many times expansion, thats great. I have some friends around the country who use premium jacketed slugs on everything & they have taken many head of game, its up to the shooter to decide.
Sure wish a guy could hunt with handguns in Canada, I'd be there!

Dick

GUN 4 FUN,

I don't mind when someone disagrees with me.There is not a single soul that I agree with on everything.I am responding only to let you know I'm not ignoring you.You have been very respectful and courteous to me and I appreciate it.

My response will be brief as I don't want it to turn into a debate.I have been wrong about a great many things in my life and this could be one of them.I question nearly everything.I've observed that certain gun rag gurus have had a tremendous effect on shooters.Many of them are quoted as if their words came from the burning bush.There are no pied pipers that I will follow.....Once upon a time,anyone with even an ounce of sense knew that the world was flat.

I'm suspicious of any and all anecdotal observations because they are too often tainted by prejudice.The shock waves observed in flight as well as when entering various substances are quite revealing from my perspective.There may very well be some contact but I doubt that it's as profound as many think.

The general truism that's been floating around in handgun circles for years is that blunt bullets "hit harder" than those not so blunt.I personally find that to be absurd.

We can agree to disagree and no harm is done either way.

canoe-

I don't agree with everyone either, and sometimes not even with myself

I have no problem with how you feel, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. We all have different life experiences, and I try to learn from everyone, even if I sometimes don't agree about something. You're good with me, and I as I said before, I enjoy your posts, and appreciate your experiences and insight that you post here. If we all agreed on everything, life really would be boring.

It's all good. Keep on posting your thoughts, and what you have learned and we will all benefit from it.

I have no experience or knowledge about the diameter or type of hole that gets punched in game with a jacketed or cast bullet. I do believe I know skill and successful results when I see it. Sixshot has demonstrated both and I will shoot cast bullets in my hunting handguns. I expect to be successful hunting here in Arkansas or in Texas or Colorado.

I have always found it interesting that hunters of the most dangerous game on earth use solids yet they are considered less than desirable on whitetails. I know that one shot from my 38-55 with a cast bullet will down a whitetail - just takes a bit longer to hit the ground. I doubt that the linotype bullet expands.

A big whitetail is about 10"-12" across the shoulders. A cape buffalo is about three feet. They are made of heavily muscled/skeletal structure, and require a solid for reliable penetration from bad angles. Whitetails require no such extreme penetration. Even a big one.

There is an article in the last issue of Rifle that is very interesting, by a professional hunter in Africa named Ganyana. He says that anyone who still believes that you need a solid for buffalo and similar sized game, is living in the distant past, since there are now so many great expanding bullets available that will relably penetrate, yet cause much more massive damage. It's a good read.

Trying to compare what high powered rifles can do, to what a handgun can do it futile at best. They just aren't the same thing. In a handgun, like I posted before, I prefer a jacketed expanding bullet for deer in my area, due to property boundry issues. Otherwise, give me a good hardcast bullet. Especially where maximum penetration from bad angles is required, or on heavily built game like boar and bear.