I realize that this forum leans strongly towards handguns with a fair degree of enthusiasm for 45/70 class rifles,etc but I'm curious to know if anyone else here has a passion for the heavies and semi-heavies.The 375 H&H does not count as it's a medium rifle.Neither do reduced loads with anything.The minimum would be the 458 Win Mag and 416 Rigby class.

Just curious.

This thread is not out of place in the Reloading sub forum because it's within the context of handloading in which I ask.

I do!
I load for the .404 Jeffery, and the .458 Lott/Win. both.
I have loaded a ton for the .416 Rem too.

Haven't done it in a while, but I have loaded for .416 Rigby. Still have dies and components.

Canoe: I load for my .416 Taylor (.458 mag necked down). I use my hard cast bullets. My rifle is a post '64 Win. Model 70 with a ss Schneider barrel. I built the rifle just for grins and giggles. So far haven't shot anything but 5 gallon buckets of water......spectacular! ..... Big Cholla

Does .50 BMG & 20mm x 138B count?

They're heavy... the .50 around 35 pounds and the Lahti closer to 100.

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I load for my .458 Lott and am laying in supplies for a being built .450 Nitro Express 3 1/4 inch.

.416 Remington Mag that I reload for. I'm to cheap to buy factory loads for it.

My gunsmith son has a custom 416, he took a 51" Idaho moose with it, my youngest son recently built a 375 Chey-Tac, last week, after shooting the rifle all summer & fall took a buck at a lasered 807 yds, one shot using a 300 gr Sierra & I believe 134 grs of Rutumbo.

Dick

How about casting and loading your own 12 gauge slugs? Other than loading for an M1A, it's the most aggravating thing I've ever done.

Dave Sinko

Let's see, 416 Rigby, Ruger and a wildcat.
450-400 3" and # 1/4"
458
470 NE

Pete

I load for the .458 Win. It's a very versatile caliber, you can do anything from pipsqueaks to elephant (none in my neighborhood lately) busters. Mine is a Ruger No. 1 with pretty wood that I would never get rid of, I've had it for 32 yrs. Don

.500 x 3" Express. ,, John Rigby & Co. D/R
Pachyderm population pretty scant here too..so it's just a fun plinker.

405 Winchester in a Ruger #1

Yes. Sako Mannlicher Carbine 375 H&H, Ruger #1 416 Rigby

Chief

375 h&h,404 jeffery, 416 rigby, 425 express, 458winchester. 458 lott, 460 weatherby, used to load for 470 nitro and 500 nitro but no longer. used to shoot them a bunch. best loading manual for big cartridges is the one from a-square.

Have and load for a 460 Weatherby. Have not shot it in years. Need to get it out and play around with it some.

I load for my .45-120 Sharps. Took first place in the Oregon State SASS side match for long range single shot rifle with it this past June.

Fred

This is gratifying.I thought I might be the only lunatic here.I'm a bit surprised at the response.It's greater than I expected.This is a reloading forum and as far as I know,there's no rule excluding heavy rifle load data.The most I've seen here is for light and medium rifles.

Just as a reminder,medium rifle loads (375 H&H included)don't qualify.Neither do reduced loads in any caliber.Minimum power is full throttle 458 Win Mag and 416 Rigby class of cartridges.These are not true heavies but they get near enough.The 404 Jeffery is a bit light but it's considered sort of a heavy medium.(which I suppose brings it close enough.)

reload and cast my own for a 458 winch mag BRNO ZKK 602

Canoe-

I know the original factory loads are fairly mild compared to a lot of other big bore cartridges, but the newer loads for the 404 are substantially more powerful. Lets notforget that it is the most popular elephant round in Africa either. It just hasn't got all the attention here like the .416 Rigby, mostly because of Robert Ruark's writings about Harry Selby and his .416 rigby.

If you handload for it as I do, you can easily surpass anything that can be done in the .416 Rem., in a modern made rifle. The .404 has (if I recall correctly from when I weighed their capcaities with water) about 8-10% greater case capacity then the .416, and works equally well with the exact same powders. RL-15 is the one to beat in both of these rounds for velocity, and accuracy. It's no trick to get well over 2500 FPS from my Jeffery with 400 grain bullets. That's about 5700 ft.lbs.

I had mine built several years ago on a Winchester M-70 CRF action that started life as a .416 Remington. It is very accurate!


I had my .458 Lott built almost 0 years ago by the late Dick Nickels out in Washington state. Some may know who he is, some won't, but he was one of the top re-bore experts in the country back before he passed, and built a lot of rifles for some very well known people. I had it built on an old pusf feed M-70 that started life as a .375 H&H.

If anyone else here has had a .458 Lott built at Ridgetop Sporting Goods in Washington State, I would really like to here from you. Your rifle was reamed with the chamber reamer that I bought from Clymer manufacturing here in MI, back when Dave Manson was still there, and gave it to Dick for doing the work. He hadn't ever done the Lott and was very happy to do it, but needed the reamer, so I gave it to him.

One can follow this argument at length by visiting ACCURATERELOADING.COM and going back a few years. Although the .416 Rigby is factory-loaded to very reasonable pressure levels, and can be mistakenly hot-rodded to much higher levels in most rifles, it is clear that the Jeffery is in the same league, at least in factory loads, which are about as fast as a sane man needs. The main advantage of the Rigby, aside from the name and the low pressure, is that .416 bullets are a little easier to come by in this country.

There is nothing wrong with a .404 Jeffery.

Now that Hornady is making brass, bullets, and ammo, and a few gun companies have tooled up to make the .404, it'll grow in popularity, and availability here too. The rounds feed through an action just like two pieces of wet glass rubbing together.....smoooooth.

Gentelmen,

My apologies to those taking exception to my placing the 404 Jeffery in a "slightly"lesser status.I am very well aquainted with the 404 Jeffery.I have loaded it,I know it's handloading potential and I'm very aware of it's history in Africa.You are therefore....preaching to the choir.

When I was trying to convey the standards of semi-heavies,I was attempting to give one a general idea.As you know,the original 404 Jeffery specs are approximately 2100 fps with 400 grains.This is in a general class of heavy-medium rifles.When I refer to a caliber,I refer to it's more standard load,not it's handloading potential.

An added thought......I don't mean to exclude certain calibers that may be favorites of someone.That's not my intent.Handloading in modern rifles can bring the 404 Jeffery well above it's original specs.The same is certainly true of the 416 Rigby.When loaded to it's potential,it's certainly in a class with the 416 Rigby,etc.

There is no caliber that is more universally used in Africa than the 375 H&H and volumes can be said of it but it's nonetheless not in the heavy rifle class.

With the 404 Jeffery,425 Westly Richards included as well as all the various 416's,factory and wildcat,(416 rigby,remington,hoffman,taylor,etc)....anyone care to share any load data that they use?

I've loaded the 404 Jeffery,416 Rigby,416 Remington as well as the 458 Win mag,458 Lott and 460 Weatherby.

At present,I still have and load for the 416 Rem,458 Win and 460 WBY.

I'm quite interested in the 500 Jeffery and very interested in the 577 Nitro Express but have never loaded for either.I have shot them,of course but they belonged to other people.

Good doubles are out of my price range.

I would especially like to shoot a good 8 bore.

Canoe, Please tell me about your 460 Weatherby loads. Have you ever tried to load it down to 45-70 or 458 Win levels or with cast bullets? I got mine back in the early 1980s from the Bank of Boulder. Played around with it some then but have not fooled with it since. I am now retired and have some time to experiment with it and would appreciate your insight. Don't see many articles on handloading for the 460 Weatherby. Thanks, Waldo

Waldo-

There is a good article in the book Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges from Wolffe Publishing, by Bob Hagel. Page 328 start.
On page 329 he lists loads that are approx. equal to .458 Win.

85 grains of IMR 4064 under the 500 grain Hornady gave 2102 FPS from his 26" Wtby rifle.

80 grains of IMR 3031 under the 500 grain Hornady gave
2066 FPS.

85 grains of IMR 4064 under the 350 Hornady gave 2183 FPS with poor accuracy.

80 grains of IMR 3031 under the 350 Hornady gave 2120 FPS with good accuracy.



No loads listed in the chart for cast bullets.

Waldo,

I've never desired to use reduced loads in the 460 Weatherby.There are lesser rifles for that.The 460 weatherby is (even though it's only a 458 bullet)in the category of heavies.I would actually much rather use a larger bore for that power level but it's velocity nonetheless puts it in that class.

As I'm sure you know,it's essentially a belted and necked up 416 Rigby case.There are numerous wildcats that have been assembled with that platform but the WBY has the distinction of being loaded to a higher pressure.(even from factory loads).Anyone can push the envelope with any version "to a point".

The 460 Wby (with full power) is definately not a cast bullet rifle.There are a great many good 458 bullets which are suitable but one should be careful that it's well constructed.Do not use bullets which were constructed for 45/70(etc) in mind.

Premium bullets from custom and semi custom bullet makers are excellent but for practice,etc,their expense is unecessary.As far as standard factory bullets are concerned,the Hornady's are excellent.The solids are very good but unecessary for anything this side of the big ones of Africa.In my opinion the Hornady 500 gr interlock soft point is excellent for" most"heavy rifle use.

These (500 gr)can be driven to very nearly 2700 fps from the 460 WBY but are considered to be somewhat excessive.I prefer to keep it around 2400-2500 fps.The load I will give below chrono's very slightly below 2500fps from my rifle.

The powders which have given me the best overall results are 4350 and IMR-4831(not H-4831-it's a bit too slow.)

I like the following.....


460 WBY brass (norma made)

500 gr Hornady interlock soft point

112.0 gr of H-4350.......this is not max.

Federal 215M

For special use,a premium bullet is highly recommended.

I reload for a 11 # Rem 700 .308 Winchester using 168 grain BTHP and a Taylor Arms 45-70 Quigley.

The most accurate 45-70 load was 500 gr Barnes HP with IMR 4198 or 450 gr Barnes HP. I bought the Barnes bullets for 6¢ each 3 months ago. My usual load is a Saeco cast spire point bullet 410 grains with AA 5744 powder. It will regularily shoot clover leafs at 100 yards but using a large diameter bullet does help.

Does this qualify for heavy rifles?

__________________
S&WHF 366

Gun for fun,
Thank you. I was not aware of that book. I ordered it last night from Amazon. I have always liked Bob Hagel and I have another of his books.

Canoe
I think there are not many people with .460 Weatherby rifles. I have never seen much data on light loads for it. However shooting it is brutal. It is a fine rifle and I would like to get more use out of it. I guess shooting it with light loads is about the same idea as using .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum or .44 Specials in a .44 Magnum. I have never experimented with light loads in the .460 because I have always heard and been afraid of the possibility of detonation. Maybe I will find the lightest bullet suitable and stick to the starting loads. You are right about using the right bullet. When I first got the gun, I wrote to one of the bullet makers and asked them why there was no data on using one of their light .458 rifle bullets in the .460. They wrote back and said it would come apart at .460 velocities.

My thanks to both of you for responding. Waldo

Waldo,

The Lyman # 48 is a good source of data for reduced loads.It also gives cast bullet data for the 460 WBY.This,of course,is with greatly reduced loads which is not the subject of the thread.

Good luck.

Nope, 45-70's are not considered heavies

Some seem to be somewhat disgruntled that a cartridge or load that they like is not considered a heavy rifle.The term "heavy" may seem a little hazy to some so I'd like to give some clarity.

In very general terms (and some loads seem to be in somewhat of a grey area),heavies might be described this way.(it matters not what has killed things).......

A 400 grain bullet that has a sectional density of 300 or more that is moving at least 2400 FPS can be described as a Light Heavy.After that,it becomes a matter of degrees with a judgement call but as a very general description,heavies don't really begin until a 500 grain bullet of a sectional density of 300 or more is moving at approximately 2100 fps which can be described as a medium heavy.

After that,it becomes a matter of degrees.I personally don't think of a rifle as a true heavy until the same 500 grain bullet of a sectional density of 300 or more is moving about 2400fps.There are,of course,those which go much farthur.

There are those who would say that heavies don't begin until approximatley 500 Jeffery level is attained.I would prefer not to nitpick about exactly where the line is drawn.

always thought the heavies began at 460 weatherby and got larger from there.

I have no way of knowing whether you're being facetious,sarcastic or sincere but many would agree with that.The 458 diameter bullet is not considered a large bore by everyone.

As I said,I don't want to nitpick about where one draws the line between categories but I do think that the description of "cartridges in the class of 416 Rigby and 458 Win mag being the minimum"was clear enough.That was given at the very first post that started the thread.To leave no doubts,I also said that the 375 H&H (as good as it is) is not a heavy and also that reduced loads are not relevant in the discussion.

In my personal view,heavy rifles begin with the general class of 416 Rigby,etc (being sort of light heavy) and move upwards from there to what some would call a super heavy(which to me means 577 Nitro Express and above.)

I never even insinuated that this discussion would be relevant to everyone,most or even many.

Where did you get that steal of a deal, Barnes slugs for 6 cents, you sure you didn't mean 60 cents? Don

Kenny Jarrett Rifles had a "Clean the Shelf" bullet sale. I bought several partial boxes of Barnes bullets for $.06 each. And yes I wasted everyone of the .458 bullets in my Quigley. I have never seen such a dead bullseye -- absolutely shredded.

I think my 11 pound Rem 700 is a heavy rifle. I don't want to carry it any farther than to the shooting bench or nearest prairie dog mound. I admire you gentleman who shoot large caliber, high velocity rifles but that is not for me.

__________________
S&WHF 366

That IS a deal, I would guess that you smiled all the way to the range every time. Don

canoe, was being sincere about the 460 statement and only because of the velocity. a lot of african hunters,at least in times past, seemed to think that heavy meant 470 nitro and up.

416 Remington, 416 Rigby, 460 Wby ( loaded down to 2400 fps), 470, 475 # 2 Jeffrey (my favorite), 475 # 2, 500 A Square, 577.

Do not care much for a 375

Always felt the 460 was way too much case for .45 caliber made a better .50 caliber weapon

Len

PS my idea of a stopping caliber as opposed to a big bore hunting caliber starts at .50

Heavy rifle depends on which side of the pond you are on. Here, anything over a 375h&h is a heavy rifle. In Africa, heavy rifles start @ 458winmag & go up. I used to load for the 458lott, sold it, too much gun for me. I have been loading & hunting w/ a 404jeffery now for about 3yrs, love it. Full power 45-70 too.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Perazzi and Leonard,

I appreciate your responses and I very much agree with both of you.I've seriously considered selling both my 416 Rem and 460 WBY.I will keep my 458 Win because of it's size/efficiency.The purpose behind most of the various 45 wildcats like the Lott was due to poorly constucted factory loads in the Win that resulted in squibb loads and etc.It didn't take well to being stored in hot sheds in Africa,etc and the powder would actually solidifly which damaged it's reputation.In spite of the criticism of the case being shortened,it nonetheless accomplished (as originally conceived)everything the 450 thru 470 Nitro family of cartridges did which is what the Win designers intended.I'm sure that you're aware that the original 450 Nitro,etc class of cartridges had (on average) an "actual"velocity of about 100 to 150 fps less than advertized.The Winchester(although the case size is not impressive),fully equals them when properly loaded.Many don't realize that Jack Lott's reason for necking out the 375 case to 45 was to increase case capacity which made things less problematic in terms of pressure,etc.Stepping the velocity over 2150 fps did not seem to be his reason.My 458 Win loads easily break 2150 with the 500 and within perfectly safe pressures(even in hot temps).

I definately digressed and didn't mean for that paragraph to be so lengthy but it leads to an explanation of why I will keep the 458 Win.When one wants a powerful rifle,he wants larger than 45(in my opinion).I would be very pleased to have and use a 500 Jeffery.

canoe-

Jack designed the Lott case, not to ease pressures, but to reach what he (and most African pros) deem the ideal velocity for penetration and performance with a heavy. That is 2400 FPS. He designed it after a buffalo tossed him in the late '50's, and almost killed him while he was using his .458 Winchester. You are spot on as to the reason why early .458 ammo had trouble though. The round is designed to give 2400 FPS, while at the same time allow the use in an emergency of .458 Winchester ammo with complete safety. There is an actual neck to both cases, so it is not simply a matter of using a shorter case in a longer chamber like the .38/.357 etc. I have used both in mine with complete satisfaction as far as accuracy goes. You do loose a little velocity with the Winnie round in the longer chamber, but that is to be expected.

I have many, many articles written by Jack Lott, including a few specialty issue volumes that are written exclusively by Jack Lott. I have one article here (though I have looked for it in the recent past, and couldn't find it) that he wrote specifically about why he designed the round. It was the article that made me go ahead and have mine made up. Most all of his articles are either in G&A, or Petersen's Hunting.

Gun4Fun,

The 458 Win did not turn out to be what the designers had in mind as to the factory loads available for several years.Many did not even reach 2000fps from the muzzle.Properly loaded,it does very well but that is all very subjective.Isn't it?

Perhaps Jack Lott did load the round up to it's true potential at some point.From various sources,I was under the impression that the pressure,powder compaction issues were his main concern.Being an experimenter,I have no doubts that he expanded.Perhaps velocity was also an issue.I see no reason to argue the point.

When one reads his accounts of the buffalo/458 Win incident,a rather curious thing is noted.First of all,his shot placement was poor (by his own admission) and secondly,the bullet was poorly constructed and did not perform as intended.Neither of these have anything to do with the cartridge.

Debating about 2100 fps vs 2400 fps could go on and on.It goes without saying that one is more than the other.I quite agree that 2400 is better.It's all a matter of opinion but personally I'd rather have a larger caliber when a heavy is to be used.To each,his own.

Gun4Fun,

It's occured to me that you may have mis-took my meaning about the 45's that are hotter than the Win.Perhaps you thought I was denigrading them in some way.Not so.I was simply trying to convey my reason for sticking to the short Winchester round.This is not contradicting myself although at a glance,it may appear to.

I was,instead,merely stating my personal preference for larger bores when "more" is desired.

NO,
I understood you, and have no truck with your choice either.

I was just trying to pass along some info I have. I have wanted a .505 Gibbs for a very long time, and was going to have one built, but I can order a new CZ550 chambered for it now. I have an article here by Jack Lott in which he lists some loads that are up to the true potential of the case capicity of that round. Holy freakin' smoke!! They are puttin' out 10,000 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy using 600 grain Barnes bullets. The gun was built by Ryan Breeding, and the article is in the February 1989 issue of G&A.

I also want a 500 Nitro double for these large fox squirrels we have running amuck here. That is probably my top priority for my next biggie.

I drool over a good double in 577 Nitro Express but it will never be.Way too much for my pocketbook.Care to share the load data you have for the Gibbs?A single in 8 bore would be nice.

The 458 Winchester has a poor reputation for penetration in Africa amongst most pro hunters. While it will easily go threw a buffalo side to side it lacks penetration on raking shots.

I have experienced excellent penetration with the big English cartridges for example my 475 # 2 Jeffrey @ 2150 fps which from my experience is about the minimum velocity for a projectile of about 500 grains. If you are serious about being able to deal with all potentials a 500 grain solid at no less than 2150 fps and ideally around 2300 fps, no more than about 2400 fps.

If you use heavier bullets you will require less velocity as momentum kicks in I have driven two 700 grain .50 caliber bullets *** to lungs on a charging (long story) jumbo at about 1850 fps.

Len

While I have no personal experience, everything I've read is that the stories of poor penetration with the .458 Win are old news. New stuff works just fine and the Win. Mag is the most commonly seen PH gun.

I doubt that stuff like Hornady's very tough jacketed solid ammo (which runs 2175 fps out of my Ruger No. 1) would be lacking in penetration. Adding to that Dick Metcalf of Shooting Times recently shot a buffalo in the shoulder with a .500 S&W Mag, destroying the shoulder and nearly exiting the animal in the haunch. Adequate penetration by any standard and I would think that the .458 could do as well with double the energy and less frontal area.

Personally, if someone were to give me a choice of any gun as a gift (within reason), I'd take a Searcy in .577 NE. I think a well built British style double is the most elegant gun ever made. Don

Don,
read through this. It's quite eye opening as far as penetration goes.

Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests