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  #1  
Old 10-31-2009, 01:47 PM
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I've loaded several rounds of several calibers and all goes fine but I'm having a real problem with the 45 ACP. With most head stamps but especially Federal, the neck re-size requires a significant force going in and can only extract it by slamming the handle with the palm of my hand very hard. And if that isn't strange enough repeatedly inserting the die/funnel into the same shell is repeatedly difficult. What the hay is happening?

I talked to Dillon about it and they sent another die. Same problem.

The die re-sizes the neck to .003 less than the diameter of a jacketed bullet. That's fine.

Just on the side, I am using older (early 1980's) RCBS dies for sizing, seating and crimping. The stuff will not fit the case gauge or the 625 chambers but is OK in the 1911. OAL is fine by Lyman as is the diameter at the case mouth. I think I am in for new dies.

What a frustration. Can't load for my new revolver.

NO LUCK WITH DILLON

Talked with Dillon today re the expander/funnel viewed on post #18. It would be the answer except it's a 10 yr old design and no longer available. They recommend polishing. What a bummer.

Bob

Last edited by jrplourde; 11-02-2009 at 04:41 PM. Reason: No Luck With Dillon
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  #2  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:48 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Resize a case, take it out of the press. Remove the insides for the powder die, the belling part.

By hand see how they go together. Act like you are trying to insert it into the sized case. It should enter at least to the end of the bevel, I would think. If it doesn't maybe the sizing die has a smaller than normal ring in it and the powder die has a larger than average size to it.

How much bell are you putting on your case? Can you take a picture?
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Old 10-31-2009, 03:57 PM
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A little bit of lube makes the world a lot better; whether they're carbide or not.
Sonny
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:18 PM
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Hi Skip, a sized case does go to the end of the bevel.

Belling is just visible. Not much. In fact I insert the die little by little and long before I reach the belling portion I'm needing to pound it out.

Repeated inserts into the same shell with the same problem is saying something. There is a clue there.

Bob

Last edited by jrplourde; 10-31-2009 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:22 PM
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what dillion press are you using ? Maybe use dillion dies
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonny View Post
A little bit of lube makes the world a lot better; whether they're carbide or not.
Sonny
Thanks Sonny, lube on the out side I agree fully but the problem is inside the case.

bob
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:44 PM
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what dillion press are you using ? Maybe use dillion dies
I'm using a 550B and my RCBS dies are not working right. Maybe Dillon dies the way to go.
bob
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Old 10-31-2009, 05:22 PM
Paul105 Paul105 is offline
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Midway had a sale on Speer .454 brass ($20/100 primed), so I bought 5 boxes. First one thru the Dillon hung up on the powder funnel. Turned out these cases had a sealent on the inside of the case mouth to enhance bullet pull. I ruined several cases before figuring this out.

I solved the problem by replacing the .45 powder funnel with a .44 powder funnel.

I've also run into this problem with new Starline Cases in several calibers. Once fired cases work fine.

I'd call Dillon first to make sure the .44 powder funnel isn't to long for the .45 ACP, if not, I'd give it a try -- Dillon offers individual caliber conversion parts:

Dillon Precision: Reloaders, Reloading Equipment, Bullet Reloading, Bullet Reloaders


Paul

Last edited by Paul105; 10-31-2009 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 10-31-2009, 05:57 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Any scratches on the outside of the case? What does the case measure on the outside after sizing? What does the case measure after belling? Down where the belling isn't? What brand of cases? Are they all the same brand? What do the cases measure before sizing?

Without a "look see" it's going to be a bit hard to help. Pictures if you can.
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Old 10-31-2009, 06:40 PM
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Sounds like a lube issue to me. How are you lubing your cases?

John
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Old 10-31-2009, 06:58 PM
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Sounds like a lube issue to me. How are you lubing your cases?

John
I agree, get rid of the rcbs stuff and order a set of dillion dies and stop the worry about it. Till then you can get a oil pad and grease the casr befor you size it.
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Old 10-31-2009, 07:36 PM
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I agree, get rid of the rcbs stuff and order a set of dillion dies and stop the worry about it. Till then you can get a oil pad and grease the casr befor you size it.
Sir, the problem is in the inside of the case, not the outside. Read the post more carefully.

Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Any scratches on the outside of the case? What does the case measure on the outside after sizing? What does the case measure after belling? Down where the belling isn't? What brand of cases? Are they all the same brand? What do the cases measure before sizing?

Without a "look see" it's going to be a bit hard to help. Pictures if you can.
Skip, my cases are a mixed bag but the Federals are the toughest. Where the process of neck expansion is usually effortless the Federal shell are tough even with the RCBS die.

There are no visible signs of scratches.

Measuring at the case mouth:
Before resize .472
After resize .468
After neck expansion below the bell .468 (I would have thought higher)
At the bell .482

These are the measurment of one shell not the average of several.

Repeated inserts of the die into the same shell with the same problem suggest the shell is not responding or springs back. My measurement of
.468 before and after expansion is saying the same thing.

Bob

Last edited by jrplourde; 11-01-2009 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:13 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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OK, Bob, great information.

It would seem that the belling die is only doing work on that part of the case. It's not opening the "body" of the case as both of us were expecting.

Now, do this. Measure the length of the Federal cases versus the others in your supply. I am wondering if they are longer.

If it was a matter of thicker cases, the expander would be opening the "body" of the case. Since that isn't happening. It has to be the belling portion of the die.

Now, this is a Dillon Powder die right? The kind that operates the powder drop? I know you said you are using a 550 but some folks have been known not to use that part of the equipment for various reasons.

I think you dealt with that in an earlier post, but I just want to be sure.

Hang in there, we'll get this figured out!
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:17 AM
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I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out. I've encountered a similar issue with my .44's and I'm using all Dillon dies. No problem with the .45 or .357 just the .44
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  #16  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
OK, Bob, great information.

It would seem that the belling die is only doing work on that part of the case. It's not opening the "body" of the case as both of us were expecting.

Now, do this. Measure the length of the Federal cases versus the others in your supply. I am wondering if they are longer.

If it was a matter of thicker cases, the expander would be opening the "body" of the case. Since that isn't happening. It has to be the belling portion of the die.

Now, this is a Dillon Powder die right? The kind that operates the powder drop? I know you said you are using a 550 but some folks have been known not to use that part of the equipment for various reasons.

I think you dealt with that in an earlier post, but I just want to be sure.

Hang in there, we'll get this figured out!
Yes Skip, I'm using the Dillon expander/funnel die.

How in the world can the shell NOT expand?

As I noted above, I get sticking long before reaching the belling portion.

My cheap calipers (time for an upgrade) reads all shells to be .005 to .010 less than the Lyman "trim to length" of .895.

Just ran a few more through the Dillon and RCBS dies. There is a net expansion on both of .004 or so. This is going to require a large sample with determined ave. The earlier sample must be in error, don't know. But as I said before, repeated entries into the same shell with the same problem is saying something. I wish I knew what.

An earlier thread on the same subject suggested that a fine polish of the die did the trick.

Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 11:55 AM
Dale53 Dale53 is offline
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I believe most here do not understand the problem of the original poster.
The cases are hanging up on the "powder through" expanding die in the Dillon progressive press. Dirty case mouths will aggravate this. .45 ACP military cases are thicker than commercial cases and will aggravate this problem. A touch of wax type case lube across the case mouth will solve this. Lee's water based case lube in a tube works well and will not contaminate the powder/primer if used sparingly. You only need to lube an occasional case mouth.

The newer Dillon expander drop tubes use a ring to expand and this helps but does not eliminate this occasional problem. This is NOT limited to Dillon tools but can happen with any that use a "powder through" expander in a powder measure (common in progressives).

Use the least amount of wax that you can imagine (just a bit on your finger scraped across the case mouth) on an occasional case will fix this.

Do NOT use too much as you COULD contaminate the powder. You do NOT want nor need to "lubricate" the inside of the case mouth, you just want to reduce "drag". This will do that.

Dale53
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:06 PM
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Attached are a couple of pics of my Dillon 45ACP expander assembly removed from the die body. These should look familiar. In the second pic, a sized case is inserted up to the belling flare. If you cannot easily push your sized case by hand to this point, your case has been sized down too much. Are you sure that this RCBS sizing die is for 45ACP?

Sounds like the expander assembly is having to "re-size" these cases up, hence the extra effort you are experiencing. As to Federal cases being the most difficult............Are these nickel cases? I have always noticed a little extra effort with these cases. I'd also put a little less bell on those case mouths. I measured a few of mine, and they run about .477-.478. Bell them excessively, and you will have the case mouths dragging on the wall of the die body.

All of this said, I would not use anything but a carbide sizing die for 45ACP. The only info you provide is that these are RCBS dies from the 80's. If it is an old RCBS carbide die that has an issue, give RCBS a call. They stand behind their products.
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:07 PM
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Dale, his mind is firmly made up it's not a lube problem. When I asked how he was lubing his cases, it was not even worthy of a response.

I've encountered the same problem with cases being sticky on the powder funnel, and it seems to be worse with 45 ACP cases. Dumping the cleaned cases in a box, and giving them a couple of shots of RCBS Case Slick solved the problem. A slight application to the funnel, just what residue of case slick is left on your finger after wiping it off, speeded the process up a lot. When you spray the lube on the cases in a box, some of the inside mouths get some lube, and that small amount is all it takes. The Case Slick is good stuff, my favorite lube. If it makes enough difference in the neck tension to affect accuracy, I couldn't detect it at 45ACP accuracy levels.

John
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:09 PM
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Hi Dale, will keep the lube in mind.

Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1 View Post
Dale, his mind is firmly made up it's not a lube problem. When I asked how he was lubing his cases, it was not even worthy of a response.

I've encountered the same problem with cases being sticky on the powder funnel, and it seems to be worse with 45 ACP cases. Dumping the cleaned cases in a box, and giving them a couple of shots of RCBS Case Slick solved the problem. A slight application to the funnel, just what residue of case slick is left on your finger after wiping it off, speeded the process up a lot. When you spray the lube on the cases in a box, some of the inside mouths get some lube, and that small amount is all it takes. The Case Slick is good stuff, my favorite lube. If it makes enough difference in the neck tension to affect accuracy, I couldn't detect it at 45ACP accuracy levels.

John
Hello John.
I didn't occur to me that lube was getting inside the case on some but enough to solve the problem. I'm in such a mess here I am not going to ignore anyone. Thanks to both

Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:46 PM
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I'm kind of curious why these loads will not chamber in your 625. What is the diameter of the sized case just forward of the extractor groove. Where are these loaded rounds hanging up as you try to load the cylinder chambers?
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:04 PM
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Hi Dale53
I tried a light lube on the die and I still had to pound it out. I was truly hopeful of a solution.
Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:09 PM
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It's probably a good idea to measure the neck thickness of the brass, and the bullet diameter on the rounds that won't chamber, and compare the measurements to rounds that will chamber.

You may have two separate but related problems.

Edit: If the brass is still sticking on the powder funnel with a little lube, you almost certainly have some thick brass, or maybe some brass that is very work hardened.

My apologies for my earlier post, it seems I was the one jumping to conclusions.

John

Last edited by jt1; 11-01-2009 at 01:22 PM. Reason: I'm an idiot.
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:22 PM
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I'm kind of curious why these loads will not chamber in your 625. What is the diameter of the sized case just forward of the extractor groove. Where are these loaded rounds hanging up as you try to load the cylinder chambers?
The stoppage is at the bullet end of the cartridge with a little wiggle left at the head. Lyman indicates a diameter at the mouth of .473. I'm just about .4733 using a jacketed bullet. Bet it would be more with a cast bullet.

Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:23 PM
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Are you sure you have an "E" powder funnel?
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:33 PM
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Are you sure you have an "E" powder funnel?
Absolutely
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jt1 View Post
It's probably a good idea to measure the neck thickness of the brass, and the bullet diameter on the rounds that won't chamber, and compare the measurements to rounds that will chamber.

You may have two separate but related problems.

Edit: If the brass is still sticking on the powder funnel with a little lube, you almost certainly have some thick brass, or maybe some brass that is very work hardened.

My apologies for my earlier post, it seems I was the one jumping to conclusions.

John
John, at the moment I am playing with once fired brass (I fired them a few days ago). I can't speak for all my inventory but most were not fired to may times. I never did much with 45ACP in the past but my interest is through the roof today with my new revolver and all I've read about it

Bob

Last edited by jrplourde; 11-01-2009 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 11-01-2009, 02:16 PM
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Bob;
Lets do this in a logical, "one step at a time", to try to get a handle on this problem.

We'll work with just one case at a time until we reach a sustainable conclusion:

1 - Full length size the case. Pull the case and using a set of dial
calipers, measure the inside of the case neck and RECORD it.

2 - Using a q-tip lubed with case lube, lightly lube the inside of the case
neck (empty your powder measure as we do NOT want to drop
powder right now).

3 - Run the case up into the powder drop die as if you were going to
drop powder

4 - Using the calipers again, measure the inside of the case neck after
expanding and record it.

5 - If everything is as it should be, the case neck measurement AFTER
you expand the neck should be larger than before you expanded it.
However, it should NOT be unreasonably hard to do it.

6 - The case neck after expansion should have enough flare to seat a
cast bullet without shaving lead but not so excessively flared that
it interferes with the bullet seating die body.

Now, let us know what happens and what the recorded dimensions are.
We should be able to understand what is happening.

NOTE:
I just had a thought - be sure that NONE of the dies in the Dillon die head are bottoming out on the shell plate (the carbide sizer should be JUST off of the shell plate a fraction) and NONE of the other die bodies should touch the shell plate.

Dale53
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Old 11-01-2009, 02:35 PM
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Sorry if this reply seems silly. But has the brass been cleaned enough?
I was playing around with some of my Federal brass and noticed that if I put in a uncleaned piece of brass it would stick just as you described. So I took another piece used just cleaned inside the case with alcohol and ran it through the press and it stuck a little but not like the uncleaned piece. Then ran a case through that had been tumbled and it seemed OK.
I also tried the same thing with Winchester brass and even the uncleaned brass did not stick.
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Old 11-01-2009, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale53 View Post
Bob;
Lets do this in a logical, "one step at a time", to try to get a handle on this problem.

We'll work with just one case at a time until we reach a sustainable conclusion:

1 - Full length size the case. Pull the case and using a set of dial
calipers, measure the inside of the case neck and RECORD it.

2 - Using a q-tip lubed with case lube, lightly lube the inside of the case
neck (empty your powder measure as we do NOT want to drop
powder right now).

3 - Run the case up into the powder drop die as if you were going to
drop powder

4 - Using the calipers again, measure the inside of the case neck after
expanding and record it.

5 - If everything is as it should be, the case neck measurement AFTER
you expand the neck should be larger than before you expanded it.
However, it should NOT be unreasonably hard to do it.

6 - The case neck after expansion should have enough flare to seat a
cast bullet without shaving lead but not so excessively flared that
it interferes with the bullet seating die body.

Now, let us know what happens and what the recorded dimensions are.
We should be able to understand what is happening.

NOTE:
I just had a thought - be sure that NONE of the dies in the Dillon die head are bottoming out on the shell plate (the carbide sizer should be JUST off of the shell plate a fraction) and NONE of the other die bodies should touch the shell plate.

Dale53
Well a little progress. The internal neck dimension after re-size was 0.448. After a slight lube and neck expand the dimension was 0.451.
The light lube also cleaned the mouth a bit and though a little tough to extract I didn't have to beat on it. Points to an earlier comment on cleaning.
Bob
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Old 11-01-2009, 04:06 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Lightbulb I have several "E" powder dies.

Bob,
I just went down and check how my cases fit on the "E" powder funnel die.

A sized case, Winchester brand, will slide on the powder funnel by hand outside of the press.

I tried the same thing with, Fiocchi and "I" (CCI) brand with the same results, although just a little tougher.

Then I went and got the only kind of Federal case I have, nickel plated. This case will go onto the last part of the radius at the bottom of the die and with enough effort I can slide it onto the straight part, just onto it, no further.

All of the cases measure .468" outside diameter.

I'm wondering if it isn't just a case of thicker than normal brass. Hornady spray lube may help you if this is the case.

One way to find out if the cases are a tad thick is to check them after bullets are seated before crimping, and certainly not Lee Factory Crimped! Check the size of a Winchester case with a seated bullet then the Federal. If the walls are thicker it will show up after you seat the bullet and measure the O/D.

Trying to get an accurate reading on the thickness of a wall of a case with calipers is "iffy" at best.

Now that Dale is on the job, I'm going to sit back and listen!
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  #33  
Old 11-01-2009, 04:13 PM
socal s&w socal s&w is offline
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Have you tried polishing the expander area? There was a problem on another forum and that was the answer that worked.

It seems that sometimes there is either a burr or a slight edge that catches. Polish that off and you are good to go.

The person used some fine grit sandpaper and the 3M pad to polish.

Coudn't hurt.
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Old 11-01-2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Bob,
I just went down and check how my cases fit on the "E" powder funnel die.

A sized case, Winchester brand, will slide on the powder funnel by hand outside of the press.

I tried the same thing with, Fiocchi and "I" (CCI) brand with the same results, although just a little tougher.

Then I went and got the only kind of Federal case I have, nickel plated. This case will go onto the last part of the radius at the bottom of the die and with enough effort I can slide it onto the straight part, just onto it, no further.

All of the cases measure .468" outside diameter.

I'm wondering if it isn't just a case of thicker than normal brass. Hornady spray lube may help you if this is the case.

One way to find out if the cases are a tad thick is to check them after bullets are seated before crimping, and certainly not Lee Factory Crimped! Check the size of a Winchester case with a seated bullet then the Federal. If the walls are thicker it will show up after you seat the bullet and measure the O/D.

Trying to get an accurate reading on the thickness of a wall of a case with calipers is "iffy" at best.

Now that Dale is on the job, I'm going to sit back and listen!
Hi again, I can get my brass up to the straight portion of the die by hand but as earlier stated,will not get to the bell portion by hand.

Well Dale is in the drivers seat. What a lazy bum you are.(don't know how to run those funny icons)

Bob

Last edited by jrplourde; 11-01-2009 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 11-01-2009, 10:05 PM
Dale53 Dale53 is offline
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Bob;
Those dimensions are near perfect (both after sizing and before expanding). There is nothing wrong there. Be sure that your powder drop expander is polished (don't remove metal, just polish it). In fact, another is having the same problem and has pretty much solved it:

Problems with my "Lee Classic Turret press"

Thicker cases will cause more drag but that shouldn't be enough to keep you from using them.

I believe that after your case expander is polished and you have clean cases, with a little lube the problem should be fixed.

Note: Do NOT use a petroleum based lube. Oil has a tendency to "sweat" out of grease and can contaminate your powder or primers. The Lee case lube used with alcohol (10/1 alcohol/lube) will NOT contaminate your powder or primer (it becomes a dry wax).

Good luck!
Dale53
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdan View Post
Attached are a couple of pics of my Dillon 45ACP expander assembly removed from the die body. These should look familiar. In the second pic, a sized case is inserted up to the belling flare. If you cannot easily push your sized case by hand to this point, your case has been sized down too much. Are you sure that this RCBS sizing die is for 45ACP?

Sounds like the expander assembly is having to "re-size" these cases up, hence the extra effort you are experiencing. As to Federal cases being the most difficult............Are these nickel cases? I have always noticed a little extra effort with these cases. I'd also put a little less bell on those case mouths. I measured a few of mine, and they run about .477-.478. Bell them excessively, and you will have the case mouths dragging on the wall of the die body.

All of this said, I would not use anything but a carbide sizing die for 45ACP. The only info you provide is that these are RCBS dies from the 80's. If it is an old RCBS carbide die that has an issue, give RCBS a call. They stand behind their products.
Voila, an apparent solution to the problem.

Note in the photo, post #18, the diminished diameter of the expander portion over most of it's length. My die is absolutely uniform in diameter the entire length greatly adding to the bearing surface. Thanks to "Engineer1911" (Bob in Atlanta, GA) who was gracious enough to phone me pointing out that his dies are identical to the one in the photo. THANK YOU SIR FOR THE PICTURES.

This post suggest being able to run a shell over the expander portion by hand. "Smith Crazy" Skip in post #32 suggests the same. I have to work hard even with the mechanical advantage of the press to get part way there.

As a result of a phone call to Dillon they sent another funnel/expander die. It's labled "POWDER FUNNEL E PISTOL" Identical to the original one.

My sizer die is an RCBS carbide die for 45ACP.

Thanks all for the help. One hell of a group of good folks here.

Bob
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbridgwater View Post
Sorry if this reply seems silly. But has the brass been cleaned enough?
I was playing around with some of my Federal brass and noticed that if I put in a uncleaned piece of brass it would stick just as you described. So I took another piece used just cleaned inside the case with alcohol and ran it through the press and it stuck a little but not like the uncleaned piece. Then ran a case through that had been tumbled and it seemed OK.
I also tried the same thing with Winchester brass and even the uncleaned brass did not stick.
I am finding something similar. I could wish the tumbler worked as well inside the case as it does outside.

Bob
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
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I am finding something similar. I could wish the tumbler worked as well inside the case as it does outside.

Bob
I have a friend that cleans his brass with media of *ceramic pieces and a cleaning solution. He using a water tight rolling tumbler instead of a vibrating tumbler. The inside of his cases are as clean as the outside.

*This is commericaly made product for cleaning brass cases

Ceramic Bead Vibratory Cleaning of Brass Cartridges
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:33 PM
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Glad to be of help!
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:27 PM
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If he's using carbide dies, lube shouldn't be necessary. I've never lubed a straight wall pistol case. There's something elso going on..
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