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  #1  
Old 11-09-2009, 09:57 PM
gregintenn gregintenn is offline
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Default Reloading for the public

I've had several people recently ask me if I'd consider producing ammunition for them. I like reloading, and I'd gladly do it, but the thought of some accident resulting in a lawsuit scares me to death. Do any of you do this? How would I go about protecting myself from such an unfortunate event?
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:09 PM
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In this day and age when they're trying to sue the firearms manufacurers for death and injury, I sure wouldn't even think about it. No matter what you do to try to put a firewall of disclaimers between you and problems, it won't work. Anyone on either side of the firearm using your ammo that gets hurt is going to sue you regardless. You'd be better off having them buy the components and come over and use your press and dies, with you observing. Just my opinion though, since I'm only starting to reload after a 20 year break.

Last edited by PDL; 11-09-2009 at 10:11 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregintenn View Post
I've had several people recently ask me if I'd consider producing ammunition for them. I like reloading, and I'd gladly do it, but the thought of some accident resulting in a lawsuit scares me to death. Do any of you do this? How would I go about protecting myself from such an unfortunate event?
You are having the same dilema that I have had over the years. I worried about all of the things in your post.

So, no, I won't do it for anyone unless they are immediate family, and even then, I hesitate.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:20 PM
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The following is educational info only, NOT any sort of legal advice!

It is a very tough situation. Product Liability law is one of the most unforgiving fields of law out there. In order to protect your assets from a judgment, you would have to create some sort of corporate entity, (IE, LLC or a corporation) and run it like a professional business. This would include filings with the state, and holding separate bank accounts, adequate insurance, paying taxes etc....

This does not eliminate liability at all, but limits it to what the "company" owns. Your personal assets would at least be protected, so long as the "corporate veil" could not be pierced....
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:25 PM
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If you don't wish to offend, simply inform them that in order to manufacture ammunition for sale to the public, a ammunition manufacturers license is required. On the other hand, there is nothing to prevent you from renting out your equipment and giving lessons.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epj View Post
If you don't wish to offend, simply inform them that in order to manufacture ammunition for sale to the public, a ammunition manufacturers license is required.
An 06 FFL is required to manufacture/reload ammo and sell it.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:31 PM
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Don't even think about trying to sell your reloads.

To begin with, you would be in the business of selling reloaded ammunition, and would require liability insurance, FFL, and various local permits and business licenses, IF you can get them. I am not aware of ANY insurance companies that will provide product liability insurance for a home-garage reloading setup. At the minimum, you are talking $35K-$50K annual product liability costs if your setup and equipment can pass inspection.

30-something years ago, I traded some .45 ACP ammunition to a fella that managed to shoot himself in the foot with one of my loads. The cops confiscated his pistol, and demanded to know where he got the ammunition. Luckily, he didn't know where they came from. They police kept his pistol for three months, charged him $150 "testing" fees, and he had to have an attorney write a letter to get his gun back. This was in a city where you had to produce identification and sign for ammo purchases in a sporting goods store!

The suggestion to have your friends come over and teach them to reload is a good one. You will helpt to spread the positive aspects of the shooting sports, help your friends make affordable ammunition, and get bulk component discounts as a bonus.
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Old 11-10-2009, 04:42 PM
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Just like the anti drug campaign.

"Just say No"

All the reasons have been given. It is a no win situation for you.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:08 PM
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I doubt that anyone could avoid liability in this situation by renting their equipment and teaching the process to a friend.

A 'friendship' will vanish in a heartbeat if the friend or member of his family think they can have big pay day at your expense because you, as an 'expert' provided the equipment and training to an underinformed victim.

Your equipment, your training....where is the insulation from liability?
.
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  #10  
Old 11-10-2009, 05:46 PM
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Best thing to do is...suggest them buying the Hornady, Lyman, Speer or Lee reloading books and suggesting some equipment so they can do it themselves. If you feel that you can trust showing them your set-up at all, I see nothing with that. There are few folks that I'd trust showing my reloading set up with, or even let know that I do reload other than those at my range.

This is America...anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

A person could certainly get sued for selling used reloading equipment if the person you sold it to used it for ill or hurt themselves with it. Doesn't mean they'd win, but they could sue. Heck, I bet a feller can get sued for looking at someone the wrong way.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:47 PM
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I didn't see any specific reference in the OP in regards to selling the ammunition, which does require an FFL for manufacturing ammunition and all the other hoopla that goes along with running a business.

However, if you are planning on doing this for a few friends you may want to seek real legal advice, meaning from an attorney who has knowledge in this field, and see what they have to say. You might be able to get away with as little as a waiver of liability form for them to fill out, maybe not even that much.

By the way, I'm not an attorney...either.
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Old 11-10-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
I didn't see any specific reference in the OP in regards to selling the ammunition, which does require an FFL for manufacturing ammunition and all the other hoopla that goes along with running a business.

However, if you are planning on doing this for a few friends you may want to seek real legal advice, meaning from an attorney who has knowledge in this field, and see what they have to say. You might be able to get away with as little as a waiver of liability form for them to fill out, maybe not even that much.

By the way, I'm not an attorney...either.
Yes, what if your buddy has asked you to reload for him? He buys the dies and components. You supply the labor.
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:07 PM
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All sound and valid concerns posted regarding reloading for friends and/or for sale.

Same reasons why I no longer do it. Once loaded some special low-recoil rounds for a distant relative for hunting. Did sleep well until I knew he had shot all of them.

In this legal climate, it's amazing we manufacture and sell anything at all.
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:14 PM
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Manufacturing ammunition for resale requires an FFL.
Mike
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:07 PM
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I'm with OCD1....

"just say no"!!!!!!!!!

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Old 11-10-2009, 10:44 PM
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I guess I take a different view of what it means to be an American. (Referring to Andy's comment! )

This Saturday is the start of firearms hunting season in my state and there will be 5 or 6 rifles afield with my handloads in them. They bought the components and I put them together.

Maybe what you/we need to do is have them come to our loading area and pull the handle once then we can say we "helped them" load their ammo. Nothing wrong with that is there?

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Old 11-11-2009, 09:55 AM
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Forester wrote:
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Yes, what if your buddy has asked you to reload for him? He buys the dies and components. You supply the labor.
Again I'm not an attorney, but I would think the person using the handloads should have some responsibility in what he is shooting out of his gun. If you buy them from a stranger you assume them to be safe and of a certain quality or they shouldn't be sold. If you approach a buddy that reloads and ask him to load for you, aren't you taking at least part of the liability on yourself? There are reloaders I know that I wouldn't have a problem shooting their ammo, and there are some I don't even want to be on the same range when it's being fired. If I ask one of the latter to load me some ammo, who's to blame?
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:25 AM
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I knew a guy some years ago, had a good little sideline tying fishing flies and selling them. Federal wildlife officer cited him for not paying the federal excise taxes on sporting goods and he got socked with a big fine in federal court!

Same excise taxes apply to sporting arms and ammunition.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:36 AM
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I can't cite any personal experience but one of the most astute gundealers/businessmen I have ever known just got whatever he needed from ATFE to begin manufacturing ammo. He sells it in his gunshop under the name "Blue Bunny".

I asked him about insurance and he said "it's not as much as you would think".

He has been selling for about a week and it seems to be going well.

Granted, he is operating out of an existing business where he has jumped through all the regulatory hoops that the local, state and fed government can throw at him. He has proper zoning and business licenses.

If you are serious, PM me and I will give you an email address.

Last edited by jaysouth; 11-11-2009 at 10:37 AM. Reason: ememded dangling participle
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:52 AM
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I have had many people that I work with ask me about reloading for them, but I have always in the back of my mind someone coming to me with the remains of their firearm or worse, a medical bill to pay because something no matter how small went wrong. I have known people that did reload for others, but I don't think the payout would be worth the risks of getting sued.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:09 PM
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Even if the use of your equipment is allowed, you will still have the possibility of liability simply by the fact that you are involved.

Think about it, the person that has something go awry, will have their attorney sue anything and anyone that had anything to do with producing that ammo.

It's the deep pocket theme, if the component maker won't pay, will the reloader manufacture? If they don't pay will you for the allowing the use of the equipment? Or the bolt manufacturer that you used to bolt your equipment to the bench? Every component used to produce that ammo will be liable in some way, the only thing that will stop them is when they are satisfied they have drained you or some manufacturer dry.

Pretty darn sad with this state of affairs when there are these kind of issues to worry about, but it happens every day. I would like to load some stuff for some of my friends and family, but refuse to do so because of that fear.

******* Lawyer and bleeding heart jury members have literally ruined good nature.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:48 PM
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Thanks for all the comments. Looks like I was on the right track by not reloading for anyone. I wasn't really looking to make much money, I really wanted to do it as a friendly gesture as much as anything. It's a darned shame a person has to be hesitent about helping out friends.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valkyriekl View Post
An 06 FFL is required to manufacture/reload ammo and sell it.
If they supply their fired brass its ok to reload without selling. New brass you are manufacturing without a license.
I turned down someone willing to pay $1.00 per round of .44 It didn't pass the smell test. I think I was being set up
( smelled like bacon)
..then there is the liability issue
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:40 PM
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For heavens sake, teach him how to reload. you can both do it together. If your good, you can double your output and build a really close friendship at the same time.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? [Back]

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]


(H5) Must a licensed manufacturer pay excise taxes? [Back]

Yes. Licensed manufacturers incur excise tax on the sale of firearms and ammunition manufactured. See Item 17, “Federal Excise Tax” in the General Information section of this publication.
ATF Online - Firearms FAQs

Of course, the Feds NEVER arrest anyone for failure to pay required taxes, do they?
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.
So if you reload ammunition you can sell it at cost and not need a license, right?
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:40 PM
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I don't know why you would risk the liability exposure so that you could reload at cost.
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearchecker View Post
For heavens sake, teach him how to reload. you can both do it together. If your good, you can double your output and build a really close friendship at the same time.
I think the key to successful reloading is to completely control the process to avoid errors.

Sharing the responsibility with a second person would concern me, but maybe it depends.


Although I wouldn't want to ever testify ...."Well, all I know is that if it was one of the ones I loaded it would be perfectly safe!"
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Old 11-12-2009, 05:51 PM
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a quick story about swimming pools, like reloads. my first house had a nice 20' by 40' in ground pool. one morning i discovered some beer cans and butts around the pool, not mine. i called my lawyer to ask him what i could do to protect myself from the liability of kids using my pool in the middle of the night. his response was " fill it with dirt and throw some grass seed on it ". bottom line, don't sell your reloads!
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:03 PM
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VonFatman wrote:
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I don't know why you would risk the liability exposure so that you could reload at cost.
Can anyone post a link to explain just exactly what the "liability exposure" is?

The link OKFC05 posted stated it is illegal to engage in the business of manufacturing ammunition without a license. The links in that link cited the federal laws applicable, and looking at the definitions in those laws was this definition. (it is the same in both.)

Quote:
(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;...
Looking at this it appears that there is no problem loading ammunition, and charging for it under certain circumstances. However it is always best to ask an attorney who is familiar with the laws, case history and precedents.

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to ask La z boy lawyers on internet forums for legal advice. But I don't even know where to start looking for laws relating to the voluntary use of non-commercial products. It appears as though the ATF doesn't care about legal, non licensed manufacturers, so who does?
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:41 PM
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True story. At a public range i used to shoot at, one guy used to spend everyday open to close picking up brass when it was cheap and plentiful. He would then reload all calibers and sell back to the folks at the range for about half price. He did a real good job and his ammo was fine by most accounts. With the amount he was producing it was just a matter of time before some K- boom occurred and lawsuits would follow.

He lived in the city limits and had over 500 lbs of powder, who know how many primers. Major commercial reloading machines.

Well of course BATF caught wind of it and there was the knock on the door. He was of course shut down, fined and never seen from again.

This range was on a State Wildlife preserve, so then all the State big wigs came down and imposed more rules and you could only pick up your own brass, The range officers had to collect the rest and put it in locked trash bins to be sent for recycling.
The guy wrecked it for all us other reloaders. If I needed brass, I just asked folks with their bags from WalMart if i could pick up theirs and they had no problem with it.
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:35 PM
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While there was no indication from the OP that he was about to sell ammo, it was apparant that someone had to pay for the components.
I thought my first post suggesting that he teach his friends how to reload was appropriate.
It's a sad day we're in when you neighbor sues you for their kid falling off your backyard swing. Something you need to note, but why give in to that BS.
Teach your friends how to reload as that blond prisoner said - It's a good thing.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:42 PM
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I haven't heard anyone suggest that simply 'introducing a friend to reloading' has any risk associated with it.

That's how the hobby grows.

However, the notions raised of 'renting equipment' or selling someone ammo at cost or cost+ based on materials, IMHO opens someone up to potential liability.

All anyone needs for proof, is the fact that so few vendors ship ammo into MA and like-minded states. The failure to ship here is based on fear of litigation by the state for 'consequential damages' that the law would attempt to attach to the supplier of ammo. I'm sure that with a minor Google effort, anyone could also find ample evidence of actual cases or complaints against ammo suppliers.

Go forth and grow the sport, but I strongly suggest staying out of anything that approximates the 'ammo business', including illegal sales/transfers to others without proper licenses.
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  #34  
Old 11-13-2009, 07:37 PM
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I would certainly help friends or family. I have been approached by "other people" to reload for them. My Dr. wanted me to reload for him because of lack of time. One guy is a Mall Ninja who wanted mass loadings of SSI green AP tips. Another person wanted us to reload for his Varmint rifles out of sheer laziness, and then wanted to go with us on a shoot. No thanks
Some people have no desire to learn. If I knew someone with a sincere desire to learn reloading as a craft then by all means I'd be their mentor
I'm going to teach my son and daughter before I cross the River
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:25 PM
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I don't reload for anyone and I wouldn't use anyone else's reloads.
If someone wants to save money on ammo let them get their own reloading outfit.
It will save them money in the long run and quite possibly save a lot of grief for both parties if there is ever a misshap .
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