I have two Model 14 .38 Specials. One is an older 14-3 and the other is one of the new Classics. Both shoot equally well (dead on) with my Model 52 loads i.e. 3.2 of W 231 with a Remington 148 HBWC. I have another .38-a Model 67 that shoots very accurately with a 158 LSWC (Bhn 14-16) and 3 grains of Bullseye. I'd like to develop a load with the 158s in the Model 14s since I have a bunch of them but the Model 67 loads shoot miserably in both Model 14s. Bad enough that it surprises me.

Any suggestions? Do you think I need a softer 158 and/or a heavier charge of powder?

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Pete

You might try from 4.0 to 4.5 of 231.

Those bullets are "kinda" hard to drive so slow. My minimum load for all of my 38spl is 158gr LSWC & 3gr Bullseye. The only difference is that my own cast bullets are in the 11 to 12BHN.

Size may be an issue too. What size are the bullets?

My 14-4 loves 3.4 grains of Bullseye with a hard cast 158 LSCW.

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Regards,
Guy-Harold Smith II

"You might try from 4.0 to 4.5 of 231."

Max: My Lyman lists 4 grains as a max load and Hodgdon says 3.7. Were you thinking of a +P load?

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Pete

"Size may be an issue too. What size are the bullets?"

Tell: .3585"

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Pete

Peter, in the 67 can you drop a bullet through the cylinder throats without pushing it with a pencil or something?

I just checked. In the M 67 it takes quite a push to get it through nor will they drop through chambers in the two Model 14s.

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Pete

The old Winchester data lists 4.5 grs as maximum standard load with a 158gr LSWC at 15,800 psi and 4.7grs for +P at 17,100 psi. Hodgdon lists loads below the old Winchester "Cowboy" loading of 4.1grs for W231 at 3.9grs on their website at 14,600 CUP (note change in units of measure) pressure.

Current SAAMI pressure for standard .38 spl is 17,000 psi and was 18,900 CUP's so as you see the Hodgdon's data is quite anemic and the Winchester +P data barely breaks the standard pressure level.

When loading 158gr LSWC's at 4.5grs of W231 using Winchester cases and primers the chronograph results from a 4" revolver mirrors what Winchester factory ballistics say for standard .38 spl 158gr lead bullet as does the 4.7gr loading for their +P 158gr LSWCHP load.

Here is a link to the old Winchester data in PDF format. http://members.cox.net/scollins15/tr...hester2002.pdf

Steve,
Do you have the older printed information on this subject? I have the new standards but not the one just before it.

Currently, their ".PDF" is labeled "205" and while I'm not sure what that means, I would like a copy of their older data so I could see this change for myself, so to speak.

Thanks in advance!

PeterM, I am using an older Winchester manual that I have used for years. They have recently cut way back on the recommendations.

There is probably a large "lawyer factor" there for the weak loads. The only question I would have though, is whether the smaller loads are a result of powder formula changes. What do you think?

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Pete

If powder was going to be put on the market where anyone could get it, I doubt that it would be "faster" in formula. I would think that lot would end up as something else, go to ammo manufacturers or get sold as surplus. If you used old data with a powder that was much faster than original, you are courting disaster and that would make the lawyers a bunch of money!

Unless you could confiscate the older manuals, and that just may happen with the current administration in office ( ), it would be a litigation heyday!

Many of my friends have tried older data with newer powder and found that the recipe didn't produce the results stated. Neither did the older powder of the same name. The two powders that were tested were 2400 and SR4756, if I remember correctly though.

Remember, you can use HP-38 in exchange for W231 as nowadays they are the exact same powder, at least according to the manufacturer.

I got the older CUP information from a Speer No. 11 manual in the cartrige description. FWIW +P was 22,400 CUP's. Just remember that CUP is not a linier scale like PSI so 2X the number isn't 2X the pressure.

Steve C is correct Winchester listed it at 4.5 max, standard pressure 38 special is 17,000. For some reason Hodgdon lowered their grains with the 158 SWC but if you keep looking into the jacketed area they show 4.3 with a hornaday 158 JHP and 231 & HP38. I have used 4.3 with 158 SWC and chronied this round at 760 out of a S&W 2 inch j frame. I think 4.4 is about right at 16,700 to 16,800 and the 4.5 is about 17,100 to 17,300. You have to figure out pressures lower and higher. I can tell you 4.3 is under max. Doubt if they changed the formular way too many books and manuals written with the 231 powder. Way too risky to do that without any warning on the packaging.

I don't think Max is far off the mark.
4.3 Gr of W-231 is usually my starting point for developing new 158 Gr SWC loads in a .38 Spl. (One or two tenths more or less, depending on specific gun-related results).
Not +P at all, IMO.

I, like you use a 148gr WC under a charge of 3.2gr W231 as my standard target round. My favorite 158gr LSWC load is 4.0gr W231. Give that a try and I'm sure it will soon become one of your favorites too.

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