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  #51  
Old 12-11-2009, 08:39 AM
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Depending on specific combination of firearm and load being used, bullet setback is a real concern, even with factory ammo. Especially with full power jacketed bullet loads. Using Lee's undersize die in combination with their universal belling die and a Redding competition bullet seater, bullet setback problems can virtually be eliminated. Ya also need to be aware of the brass thickness and dia of bullet being used.

The Lee undersize die can be used to undersize the brass to below the base of the bullet, when the bullet is seated in the brass. This has the same effect of cannuluring the brass.

I once mentioned loading for a .40 High Power on this forum. Skip warned me up front, but tried it anyway. Blew a mag out the bottom, using RP brass and standard brass prep procedures. Since then used up all the rp brass loads in a 646. Then used Fed brass and a Lee undersize die. No problems since, even with the strong spring of the .40 HP.

Now use this procedure for certain 9mm, 45 acp and 40 caliber jacketed loads.

A lee universal belling die does not expand the sized brass back out, past the mouth of the case. A Redding competiton die keeps the bullet straight while seating a bullet in the undersize case. And yes this is significantly more work, which is not usually required for low power lead target loads.
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  #52  
Old 12-11-2009, 11:18 AM
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Wink Been done before too!

Zeke,

Hey, having a magazine blown out the bottom of a BHP has been done before, by none other than .....................................................................ME!

I was using Clays, something that will NEVER happen again in a semi-auto round loaded by me, and a 180gr LTC.

.5gr over Hodgdon's maximum load, Lyman's top load, was all it took to have the catastrophe happen.

I know of one other forum member that had the same thing happen to them, BHP, 40S&W, Clays powder.

Again, the whole point of this thread is not to get people to stop loading for these kinds of firearms, but to do it with knowledge.

Fast powders coupled with heavy bullets are an accident waiting to happen, IMO.

I have switched to SR4756, Longshot would be another good choice, with bullets in the 180gr range in the 40S&W.

Lots less pressure, slower peak, faster velocities.

Load with knowledge that will save you some experience.

Think about it!
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  #53  
Old 12-11-2009, 01:59 PM
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I am a brass whore. At the range I pick-up other peoples leavings. Whenever I see a Glock in operation especially a .40, I expect bulged cases in my pick-ups. Obviously it is enough of a problem that RCBS sells a full length sizing die and I think promises one for .45 ACP as well. I expect this is mostly once fired because reloaders tend pick-up their own brass.
Several years ago I had the urge to shoot .45 Super in a 1911, step one said the experts; a fully supported barrel.
Obviously there is a great deal of difference between the pressures in a .40 and .45ACP which may be why my range pick-ups in .45 seldom are a problem.
I am not altogether convinced that resizing the bulged cases is a solution to the problem IF you plan to fire them in an unsupported chamber again. (Confession; I do not own any plastic pistols)
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  #54  
Old 12-11-2009, 05:08 PM
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Roger,
A BHP is not a plastic pistol. That fact alone kept little shards of the gun out of my extremities!

I use "Glocked" brass, my own and other's. I have not had any problem with it even getting a slight bulge as long as I use slower powders.

As stated above, I use nickel plated brass, most of that has been fired in Glocks previously.
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  #55  
Old 12-11-2009, 05:29 PM
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I was still in the Glock World with my plastic comment.
I suspect that you are right about the load/powder, certainly my pick-ups are mostly foreign stuff, I suppose bought because of the price. But I think the point that some pistols are at the ragged edge of problems due to tolerances also may be a good one.
Some one at the same range has a .45 which puts a nasty ding in every case, I suspect his timing is way off.
I have no real reason to load .40 S&W, I have only one pistol in it, and that seldom fired, but I save the brass none the less.
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  #56  
Old 12-11-2009, 06:01 PM
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The 40-S&W is a non issue with me. The 9mm-Luger&45ACP are the only center fire cartridges I employ in semiautomatic pistols that are reloaded.

That said the 9mm-Luger is considered to be fully supported in the Glock series 17 & 19 pistols. I’ve noted no meaningful dimensional difference between fired cases from the Glock pistols mentioned and S&W-MP9 pistols in regards to case expansion.

As for the 45ACP thou not fully supported in the Glock OEM barrel, fired cases from the Glock OEM barrel drop into OEM barrels of S&W, Springfield, and Colt along with BarSto replacement. Also noted the previously mentioned barrels have varying degree of non full support issues also.

It should be noted that I’m not into reloading/fabricating +P or +P+ equivalents in either the 9mm-Luger or 45ACP.

Last edited by dennis40x; 12-11-2009 at 06:04 PM.
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  #57  
Old 12-11-2009, 06:42 PM
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Exclamation Well noted point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis40x View Post
That said the 9mm-Luger is considered to be fully supported in the Glock series 17 & 19 pistols. Iíve noted no meaningful dimensional difference between fired cases from the Glock pistols mentioned and S&W-MP9 pistols in regards to case expansion.

It should be noted that Iím not into reloading/fabricating +P or +P+ equivalents in either the 9mm-Luger or 45ACP.
Dennis,
Good points all, especially the later point. Staying away from those rounds that "Go where no man has gone before" is a sure way to stay away from having problems.

Some do and I'm not sure that that is a smart thing in this platform of firearm.

I think we all can agree that the way to keep problems from happening is to keep the pressure down. Usually that means a lack of performance. Not always, and that is the point that needs to be explained as well.

Here is the data from Hodgdon for the 180gr XTP with SR4756
Quote:
Cartridge: 40 S&W
Load Type: Pistol
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

180 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .400" 1.125" 6.1 957 25,200 PSI 6.6 1018 28,800 PSI
Look at the pressure of that bullet to get over 1000fps. Now look at another powder, one much faster.

Quote:
180 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Clays .400" 1.125" 3.0 727 26,000 PSI 3.5 847 34,300 PSI
On some charts Clays is considered faster than Bullseye, how much difference between the numbers on a chart is hard to ascertain, still..............

One can readily see that the pressure is higher for less performance. Now, if it was my firearm, with the knowledge that it had a partially supported chamber, I can tell you which load I would choose.
Note, .5gr of powder changes the pressure by over 8000psi. What happens if you go to 3.9gr? I can tell you, DON'T!

OK, that's the 40S&W. What about the 45ACP? Let's look.
A popular bullet weight for target shooter is the 200gr LSWC, we'll check them out.

Quote:
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.225" 7.4 875 13,500 CUP 8.2 966 17,100 CUP
A maximum load gives pretty good velocity.

Now a much faster powder, again, Clays.

Quote:
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.225" 3.6 759 11,800 CUP 4.3 888 17,000 CUP
Now the difference in pressure isn't that different. Look at the velocity. What will happen is this, someone will try to eek out that extra 78fps with this powder. What if your powder drop is +/- .1gr? It is possible that bad things are to follow folks, period.

I'm not trying to slam Clays. Like every tool available to us as reloaders, it has it's place. In light revolver rounds, very good.

Good points again Dennis.
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  #58  
Old 12-14-2009, 01:20 AM
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Skip,
Really good and informative post. I have never reloaded .40 S&W (yet, don't even have a gun in that caliber these days).

I do have a G21 and it's completely stock other than the Heinie Slant-8 Nite Sights.

I never felt the need to load hot .45 ACP. I have several other like-caliber semi-autos....H&K Tactical, Springfield 1911-A1 and Sig 220

I prefer nice medium target loads and when my G-21 is "on duty" I load up the factory loads that function just fine.

I agree totally with your logic...keep those "on the edge" loads for the Rugers, Freedom Arms and the like.

Bob
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  #59  
Old 12-19-2009, 03:51 PM
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Very Good info.
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  #60  
Old 12-19-2009, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis40x View Post
Currently circulating on at a least one firearms forum are photographs of a Springfield XD pistol that suffered catastrophic failure also.

Under we donít know what we donít know and wonít know. Unless other wise notified the root cause of the catastrophic failure has not yet been determined. In a conversation with a shooting industrial source most failures are related to ammunition irregularities. This doesnít exclude firearm related design and manufacturing issues.
Now why do I think ammunition manufactures say most catastrophic firearms failure are a related to firearms manufacuring irregularities.
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  #61  
Old 12-20-2009, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLT223 View Post
Now why do I think ammunition manufactures say most catastrophic firearms failure are a related to firearms manufacuring irregularities.
The shooting industry source I referred to comes not from the firearms manufacturing side of the equation.
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  #62  
Old 12-20-2009, 12:56 PM
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Seems to me too many of kabooms are Glocks.
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  #63  
Old 12-20-2009, 03:44 PM
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Exclamation That's the reason for the thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomf52 View Post
Seems to me too many of kabooms are Glocks.
The reason there seems to be so many kabooms with Glocks is because there are so many of them out there, for one thing. The second is that folks don't heed good advice. Dennis says there is a book. To me, that might need to be required reading for folks that don't want to follow suggestions!

Either those or folks that can't figure!

Since I'm one of those folks that figure, I have successfully found a way around the danger, within reason of course.

At any rate, I'm not knocking the tool. Not when it, at least in part and at times, can be traced to operator error.
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  #64  
Old 12-20-2009, 04:07 PM
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There has been issues with probably every type of firearm known to man. For some reason there seem to be so many out there that would love to prove Glock not combat able. I trust my life to my Glock 40 more than any revolver, pistol, long gun out there. Take thes articles for exactly what they are, opinion and free, on an S&W website. Not bashing S&W, I have many and love them, but they too have there share of documented issues. I have known and supervised thousands of Officers with Glocks and never ever had one with a single problem. Truthfully, if this is not a Glock bashing thread why post it here on a S&W website.

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  #65  
Old 12-20-2009, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Truthfully, if this is not a Glock bashing thread why post it here on a S&W website.
Yup, I was hoping by now there would be some more information as to what really caused the failure. Factory gun, factory ammo (from what the OP stated), and the gun blows up? How many times is this combination used with no problems? Yet, something happened here that isn't normal. I'm not Glocks biggest fan, I only own one of them, but they aren't junk either. Was there a problem with the gun? The ammo? Or the operator?

I was just in Marshall Co. Friday, I should have thought to ask someone.
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  #66  
Old 12-20-2009, 06:18 PM
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There is not gonna be anymore info simply because it is a situation where a news report ( need I say more ) combined with a site not in love with tupperware ( not my name believe me ) got a hold of some information that needs no proof. Everyone would love to prove Glock not constructed well, but that is not the truth. They have withstood millions upon millions of rounds at this time in all calibers. I'm sure somewhere there was a lemon that got through or user error, or not cleaning, but come on, it almost seems like the German Shepard, Doberman, Pit Bull, Rotti, insert your own story that makes headlines, and the public/press/news reporter runs with it. All I'm saying is it always seems like someone elses friend of a friend in a news story. I in 28 years of Law Enforcement 20 of which Harlem NY have never heard of this happening before these websites. If Glocks are defective so be it, I will never believe it til you call me 3 fingers. I love my revolvers but count on a Glock daily, and if you need help in S.Florida when the Police arrive it will be with a competent Officer capable Glock.
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  #67  
Old 12-20-2009, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis40x View Post
An important reference to understanding the Glock pistol: The Clock in Competition A shooters how to guide 2nd Ed (Chapters 1-3 & 1-4) extremely informative
This is the book. Read it and learn (Chapters 1-3 & 1-4) extremely informative.
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  #68  
Old 12-20-2009, 06:55 PM
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All that was done here was someone posted a news article which anti-gunners love showing a Glock hurting a LEO. There was no positive info posted. There was no help as to how to make this not occur. It was nothing but a news reporter posting a story how guns ( in this case Glock ) are dangerous. I can read, I can read hundreds of possibly thousands of articles/books telling me how to care for a weapon. This thread was simply a Glock bashing thread, nothing more, only fact "read the book". If we all read the book we would'nt post non truths. Exactly what we do not need in the firearm sector. I don't love Glocks, I love our rights, but within our own we are propegating false stories and spreading non truths. Some news reporter found a story about a Glock blowing up and then all of a sudden they all blow up, I had a friend whose friend is a cop told him etc etc

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  #69  
Old 12-20-2009, 07:08 PM
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I give up, sorry if I offended anyone, just don't like unsubstantiated news articles made into grail, to each their own
Be safe and have a Happy healthy safe Holiday season
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Old 12-20-2009, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by policedontmove View Post
I give up, sorry if I offended anyone, just don't like unsubstantiated news articles made into grail, to each their own
Be safe and have a Happy healthy safe Holiday season
Police,
Please be assured that I am NOT downing the Glock, some may but not me. I did UNTIL I shot one. As a matter of fact, my son trusts his life to one now as an LEO.

What I am trying to do with the posting of the original article is to educate that there are some "nuances" to reloading for these firearms. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have loaded a ton of rounds for my Glock 22, "THE PROBLEM CHILD" of all of them without incedent.

Be assured, it can be done and there are no stones being thrown at them by me.
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  #71  
Old 12-20-2009, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
What I am trying to do with the posting of the original article is to educate that there are some "nuances" to reloading for these firearms. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't have a Glock....heck, I don't even have a S&W semi-auto pistol....but I do reload. I got out of this thread exactly what smith crazy stated. Should I ever acquire a Glock, I'll be much more informed and aware of what its needs are in the area of reloading.

If this was meant to be a Glock bashing thread....it was the weakest, milk toast version of bashing I've seen in a long, long time.
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  #72  
Old 12-20-2009, 09:42 PM
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tj,
Too kind, thanks!
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  #73  
Old 12-20-2009, 10:16 PM
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I followed this thread as I do most reloading threads and I never took it as a glock bashing thread either.
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  #74  
Old 12-21-2009, 10:12 AM
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I too had a kB! in a Browning HP 40... in fact I had two of them... one factory load and one a hand load... the BHP40 of course does not fully support the case body, so a case even slightly weak can let go... and they do.

I have seen two kB! in Glocks and one in a Sigma... the difference in the kB! in the plastic guns was that they were not as strong as the BHP. The first kB! was with Remington (RP) 180gr ball. The second was my hand load with a GFL case, Winchester primer, Clays powder and 180gr cast bullet... sort of the classic recipe for a kB! in a hand load. I suspect the GFL case had previously been fired in a Glock with a loose chamber. The Sigma kB! was with Black Dawg commercial re-loads with 180gr bullets.

In one instance when the case let go the BHP40 was not damaged at all, though the gun was shut down and the case body had to be removed from the chamber because the head had blown all the way off... the gun was not damaged however, and I was able to resume shooting it in the IDPA match I was in. The second blew the extractor off the same gun, but it was otherwise undamaged.

Both of the Glocks I saw kB! wrecked the gun, blew the magazine out... typical Glock kB!

The S&W Sigma had it's extractor blown off and magazine damaged and had to go to a "smith for repair.

I have thought a lot about kB! events since then... At first I thought the Glock was simply a weaker gun than the steel ones... but not I'm not so sure... If that were the case, the Sigma should have been scrap metal... and it wasn't.

It was also perplexing that the kB! in Glocks would blow the chamber in many cases, but not in other 40s... The BHP40 had two kB! without damage and the Sigma I saw had one... both with only minor damage... yet we see Glocks blown wide open. Are Glocks inherently a weaker design or made with weaker materials? I don't know the answer to that question... The metal on the Glock chamber is certainly of similar thickness to other guns... Perhaps the rupture of the chamber releases gas faster than the case rupture at the base... and that is the source of the damage...

So, it seems there are actually more than one cause for the Glock kB! Though Glock does not admit to knowing, I expect they now know the cause of the kB! because they have become much less common... and they have taken action to resolve the problem.

My best guess is that one kB! is caused by the gun firing out of battery... another from set back bullets and the other by defective or weakened brass... but that is not much more than a SWAG.

It is interesting that in the video clip we saw, the chief deputy blamed the ammunition... but without any explanation of why... It would be interesting to know if there is more to the story...

Anyway, it would be interesting to know the real facts...

FWIW

Chuck


Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Mark,
The reason for the thread isn't to point a finger at the Glock, but then again, I don't try to run 10mm type of rounds through my 40S&W either.

Much like your truck, you don't put JP5 airplane fuel in it either!


To others:

That is the point of the thread.

Know the tool, work within it's parameters. Then safety can be complete.

If they foul up after they are supremely dirty, don't let them get that way. If they blow up when too fast of a powder is used, don't use too fast of a powder.

I hope that explains my reason for posting this. I have, and so have others, loaded thousands upon thousands of rounds that have been fired safely in a Glock. I/We will continue to do so too. We will just do it with knowledge and not ignorantly.

This is not a Glock bashing thread. Please don't post those types of posts.

The main reason being is that I have a son that depends on his G22 everyday to protect his life while serving as a Deputy Sheriff.

Maybe what we need to bring out is the engineering flaw/idiosyncrasies that bring about the possibility of these kinds of things happening more frequently per design.

I know that I had a KB in a Browning High Power for that explicit reason, unsupported chamber and an over pressure round.

What about the 38Super. Were there any problems when that round came out?

Last edited by cxm; 12-21-2009 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy
What I am trying to do with the posting of the original article is to educate that there are some "nuances" to reloading for these firearms. Nothing more, nothing less.
I can understand your caution Skip, but without knowing what caused the failures how can you tell others what to watch out for? Problems with Glocks seems to be big news fodder, but how often do we get to hear what actually caused the problem? We can all sit here and take guesses but it is nothing more than speculation and wild guessing. I think the main reason we hear so many reports of problems with Glocks is because there are so many of them out there. And look who's carrying them. I've spent a lot of range time with police officers and I feel most of them aren't qualified to carry a gun, let alone a Glock, which isn't as idiot proof as many want to believe. And no, this isn't a cop bashing thread either. All I'm saying is, before I blame the failure on the gun I want to make sure their wasn't a cleaning patch or brush in the bore, or the officer didn't exchange his duty ammo for questionable handloads to hoard the more expensive ammo for later or... Any of a number of other possibilities that would completly exonerate both the gun and factory ammo.

For the record, I never really saw this as a Glock bashing thread, more of a peeing match that Dennis referred to in an earlier thread.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cxm View Post
It was also perplexing that the kB! in Glocks would blow the chamber in many cases, but not in other 40s... The BHP40 had two kB! without damage and the Sigma I saw had one... both with only minor damage... yet we see Glocks blown wide open. Are Glocks inherently a weaker design or made with weaker materials? I don't know the answer to that question... The metal on the Glock chamber is certainly of similar thickness to other guns... Perhaps the rupture of the chamber releases gas faster than the case rupture at the base... and that is the source of the damage...

FWIW

Chuck
ďThe Glock geometry creates a predictable failure location, but this does not indicate weak chambers (as some have claimed). Good engineering design incorporates predictable failure locations and modes.Ē

Spend $19.95 plus handling & postage for the rest of the story! (Chapter 1-4 The Exploding Glock, Fact or Fiction? By Mark Passamaneck P.E. TY40422) ISBN:0-9662517-4-1 The Glock in Competition A Shooter's How To Guide 2nd Edition.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:53 PM
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If I were a betting man (I'm not)...
I'd bet the main reason for any Kb in semi-autos is bullet set-back. I know for a fact that I need to check my carry ammo (KelTec P3AT) on a regular basis. If I shoot a skunk (or try to) many times the follow-up bullet in the magazine will do a mini nose dive into the ramp...not a full blown FTF, rather a hic-up.

When I get home and check the magazine and re-load...once in a while I'll see the chambered bullet with some set-back. It's not an always thing. It may be how I held the gun, it may be how I loaded the magazine....but never-the-less, it does happen from time to time.

I would suggest with the MANY gazillions of G22s in the field that this may be the cause of the occasional Kb.

The use of high pressure cartridges certainly makes set-back a danger as the envelope is not real deep.

And yes folks.....this is pure speculation.

Bob
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Last edited by VonFatman; 12-21-2009 at 02:56 PM.
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Reloading Thread, Glock blows up! in Ammunition-Gunsmithing; Depending on specific combination of firearm and load being used, bullet setback is a real concern, even with factory ammo. ...
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