Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-08-2009, 07:06 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Exclamation Glock blows up!

Don't anyone take this as a Glock bashing thread. That isn't the point at all. My everyday firearm is a Glock 22, 40S&W. I have nothing bad to say about them at all. This is a caution to those who reload for them though.

The caliber of this firearm is one that is not usually associated with a KB, but it did happen, and it happened with factory ammo.

Remember those diehard factory ammo for CCW folks?

While factory ammo is specifically designed for a certain purpose, my ammo is designed with the firearm in mind. If I have 40S&W ammo that I make that will be run in a M610, it can have higher pressures than if it was to be run in my G22. When I make CCW ammo for the G22 it is with the firearm platform in mind.

Lower pressures, higher velocity, consistency.

Take a look at the video, it has some close-ups of the G21. By the way, that is a 45ACP caliber firearm. One with generally a low pressure threshold.

Pistol Explodes In Deputy's Hand - News Story - WTOV Steubenville
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-08-2009, 08:06 AM
Centenniel Centenniel is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: May 2004
Location: South Eastern TN USA
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times in 8 Posts
Default

The 40 caliber Glock pistols do have that reputation. They are also the most widely used handgun in law enforcement circles today. The current upswing in the use of S&W M&P and Springfield XD pistols may be one of the results of the "issue."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-08-2009, 08:20 AM
VAdoublegunner's Avatar
VAdoublegunner VAdoublegunner is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,061
Likes: 10
Liked 78 Times in 51 Posts
Default

Wow, that's sort of a "Dog Bites Man" headline!
I have some photos of a friend's glock 36 that blew up while he was shooting at the NRA range in Fairfax. Same deal.
__________________
" I said, good DAY! "
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-08-2009, 08:49 AM
dennis40x dennis40x is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 661
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centenniel View Post
The current upswing in the use of S&W M&P and Springfield XD pistols may be one of the results of the "issue."

Currently circulating on at a least one firearms forum are photographs of a Springfield XD pistol that suffered catastrophic failure also.

Under we don’t know what we don’t know and won’t know. Unless other wise notified the root cause of the catastrophic failure has not yet been determined. In a conversation with a shooting industrial source most failures are related to ammunition irregularities. This doesn’t exclude firearm related design and manufacturing issues.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:29 AM
Markcuda Markcuda is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Clinton,Illinois
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 7 Posts
Smile

I got 4 Glocks, so far, non have went boom after countless rounds
My truck can blow up also, but I don't worry about it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:30 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis40x View Post
Currently circulating on at a least one firearms forum are photographs of a Springfield XD pistol that suffered catastrophic failure also.

Under we don’t know what we don’t know and won’t know. Unless other wise notified the root cause of the catastrophic failure has not yet been determined. In a conversation with a shooting industrial source most failures are related to ammunition irregularities. This doesn’t exclude firearm related design and manufacturing issues.
Dennis,
Do you have a link to the site about the XD? I for one would like to see it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:39 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markcuda View Post
I got 4 Glocks, so far, non have went boom after countless rounds
My truck can blow up also, but I don't worry about it.
Mark,
The reason for the thread isn't to point a finger at the Glock, but then again, I don't try to run 10mm type of rounds through my 40S&W either.

Much like your truck, you don't put JP5 airplane fuel in it either!


To others:

That is the point of the thread.

Know the tool, work within it's parameters. Then safety can be complete.

If they foul up after they are supremely dirty, don't let them get that way. If they blow up when too fast of a powder is used, don't use too fast of a powder.

I hope that explains my reason for posting this. I have, and so have others, loaded thousands upon thousands of rounds that have been fired safely in a Glock. I/We will continue to do so too. We will just do it with knowledge and not ignorantly.

This is not a Glock bashing thread. Please don't post those types of posts.

The main reason being is that I have a son that depends on his G22 everyday to protect his life while serving as a Deputy Sheriff.

Maybe what we need to bring out is the engineering flaw/idiosyncrasies that bring about the possibility of these kinds of things happening more frequently per design.

I know that I had a KB in a Browning High Power for that explicit reason, unsupported chamber and an over pressure round.

What about the 38Super. Were there any problems when that round came out?

Last edited by Skip Sackett; 12-08-2009 at 09:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:55 AM
JWiley JWiley is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Years ago I carried a G27 so I was very intested in Glock KB's when the reports surfaced.

From what I was able to come up with, in terms of the .40S&W, was the root cause was bullet setback. The round is high pressure to begin with and even a few thousandths setback will increase the pressure to failure levels. I have seen setback even in my .45ACP.

Most of us tend to rechamber a seemingly good round after cleaning, etc. The moral: Check for setback and don't be cheap. Unload that chambered round through the muzzle.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:11 AM
handgunner356 handgunner356 is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SE Iowa on the Mississipp
Posts: 3,137
Likes: 1
Liked 352 Times in 230 Posts
Default

A flyer was out to LE that recommended rotating the top round in their magazine. The angle was officers that unloaded their firearm every night and rechambered the same round over and over had a chance of bullet set back. When working with the higher pressure 40 round it wouldn't take much. It is surprising with the 45 though, you would be more suspect of a faulty round.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:24 AM
flagman1776's Avatar
flagman1776 flagman1776 is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 2,000
Likes: 2,515
Liked 1,682 Times in 703 Posts
Default

Years ago, a friend blew the grips off a competition 1911 45acp. The nearly full magazine was ejected from the gun by the blast. He was picking splinters out of his hand but the gun was undamaged & returned to service. The round blew out over the heavily throated feed ramp... but no other fired rounds showed bulging or excess pressure.
It was concluded to be a defect in his reloads. Initially suspected a double load but I think bullet set back more likely. I know he went to a heavier taper crimp after that. These are once in several lifetimes experiences, so the fact that it did not happen again proves little.
Russ
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:28 AM
sonny sonny is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 572
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Default

I used to have two 27's(.40) and two 26's(9mm). One of them blew up one day at the range when I was shooting a friend's gunshow reloads. It blew the mag out of the bottom, the casehead nearly separated from the case. I got lots of stinging debris on my hand, which was mostly black from the detonation. I was not hurt.
After examining the gun, I reloaded the mag with factory ammo and banged away just fine.
However, some time after that, at a different range, my 27 went "pop" and I realized that I was shooting 9mm in my .40 Smith gun.
I sold both 27's and one 26 and now carry the 26 when I'm not hung with j-frames.
Sonny
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:33 AM
Rule3's Avatar
Rule3 Rule3 is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 22,063
Likes: 10,777
Liked 15,464 Times in 6,787 Posts
Default

In the interview, the officer/spokesperson stated :

"Cecil says it was the first time the .45-caliber pistol had ever been used."

Was the gun cleaned before use, was the barrel obstructed, what ammo was used? Questions,questions???
__________________
Still Running Against the Wind
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:49 AM
flat top's Avatar
flat top flat top is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Flagman makes a good point! When I was a rookie competitive shooter, a fellow competitor was looking at my 45 ACP rounds at a match. He told me "here is a word for the wise....always crimp your bullets whether they be for competition (light loads) or not!" He then explained the set back issue. Since that day, I have crimped every pistol round, (or top end rifle round), that I have ever loaded. Safety first! Secondly, and I am a proponent of modern technology, but, one thing that has never set right with me is plastic or alloy firearms...somehow, high pressures and materials that are weaker (I may be wrong in that respect) than treated steel, or stainless just dont seem to go together....but, thats just me. I know that plastic and alloy firearms are here to stay and have been proven reliable, but, I dont think I would ever own one. I also think that my handloads are safer than mass produced factory ammunition, but again...thats just me! I guess that as much as I appreciate all the high technology that has made our lives easier, there are just some things that for some reason I cant accept.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:51 AM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 22,758
Likes: 18,437
Liked 22,313 Times in 8,245 Posts
Default

A couple friends of mine are writers for shooting magazines. One has just concluded a testing of bullet set-back by "re-chambering" multiple times. The reason, LEO's, and people who carry CCW will quite often unload their handgun when coming home. Reinsert the un-chambered round in the magazine, and the next day re-chamber it. That may be done many times with the "same" round of ammunition. It was found that constant re-chambering the same round set back the bullet in the case, to enough of a degree that the interior case capacity was reduced to the point the round could have excessive pressures when fired. The test was conducted with multiple different guns, and multiple different brands of ammunition. Some set-backs were in excess of 30/1000ths inch.

This article will soon be published in Shooting Times or one of it's affiliated magazines.

One thing viewed was nearly all factory ammo (9mm, 40 cal, 45 acp) was not crimped. It is believed this is a contributing factor.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:09 AM
gr8AmericanBash gr8AmericanBash is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 528
Likes: 88
Liked 41 Times in 17 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Dennis,
Do you have a link to the site about the XD? I for one would like to see it.
Try this link. You may have to be a member to view it, I'm not sure.
If you can't see it, I'll post the pics here.
__________________
not limited by 30 characters
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:27 AM
JWiley JWiley is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Having proven to myself that I'm a total incompetent at reloading so I'll bow to the experts, but...I'm not sure that putting a crimp on a .40S&W, already a high pressure round, forcing an increase in pressure is a good idea.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:34 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is online now
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 3,605
Liked 5,199 Times in 2,172 Posts
Default

Rather than repost the same info, here's yesterday's thread on this subject:
Massive G21 KB

If they had run the gun and cartridge scraps through an NDI lab, we would know exactly what happened and why.
Without that, it is all just guessing and finger pointing.
I have to wonder why the gun didn't go immediately to an NDI lab?

Last edited by OKFC05; 12-08-2009 at 11:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:36 AM
acl864 acl864 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central NC
Posts: 583
Likes: 24
Liked 37 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flat top View Post
...I also think that my handloads are safer than mass produced factory ammunition, but again...thats just me!
I definitely agree. I take great care in preparing my handloads. With ammo manufacturer's cranking out rounds 24/7 trying to meet current demand, I have zero confidence in store bought ammo for critical situations. This KB was immediately attributed to faulty factory ammo. As bad as this accident was, it would've been much worse had the officer been in a situation to use this firearm in the line of duty.
__________________
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:44 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Exclamation Controlled pressure!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWiley View Post
Having proven to myself that I'm a total incompetent at reloading so I'll bow to the experts, but...I'm not sure that putting a crimp on a .40S&W, already a high pressure round, forcing an increase in pressure is a good idea.
Wiley,
Having ALL semi-auto rounds crimped is a must, at least in my book.

This doesn't prove my theory but, what if it was setback that caused this problem. It probably wasn't because like OCD says, it was the first time the firearm was used.

Here is a picture of of a couple of bullets. Both are 45ACP bullets. One was crimped, the other hadn't been loaded yet. It shows how much I will crimp a bullet that is loaded in a semi-auto.



(It is the possibility of not being able to control the pressure that makes it a problem. Bullet setback, and this has been the point of several threads I have posted about seating depth versus OAL, is a bigger factor to increasing pressure over other ones. Once you start pushing the bullet deeper into a case, pressure raises exponentially.)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:59 AM
flat top's Avatar
flat top flat top is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Wiley; For safety's sake dont be afraid to crimp, but remember, the crimping process is started when you first start working up a load....not after you have reached the maximum load!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-08-2009, 12:42 PM
JWiley JWiley is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Thanks guys. Learning the process and seeing the pix is a great help.
__________________
John
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-08-2009, 01:13 PM
kshock kshock is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas City (Mo) metro
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Default

I did some research on this very topic and the problem is not just Glock. Google "catastrophic handgun failure" and you will get quite an education. From what I've read, any striker fired polymer frame pistol is susceptible to this calamity. It has to do with the bottom portion of the case being unsupported. Some claim this unsupported area will blow out causing the catastrophic failure. It appears that bullet setback is a contributing factor in some cases. Others claim that you should not reload cases fired from one of these guns because the unsupported area of the case stretches more, thereby creating a weak spot in the case. Who knows, but it does seem that the design of these pistols make them at least slightly more susceptible to this type of failure.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-08-2009, 01:35 PM
johngalt's Avatar
johngalt johngalt is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
Posts: 5,335
Likes: 1,443
Liked 6,647 Times in 2,564 Posts
Default

A nit about this crimping business....

In an auto cartridge, the purpose of "crimping" is to undo the flare/belling when the case mouth was expanded before seating the bullet. Crimping does not make the case grip the bullet tighter and prevent setback, it makes it worse. This is the purpose for taper crimp dies for autos - they don't really crimp at all, they just remove the flare.

If you are having bullet setback issues, the most likely reason is too much flare, not insufficient crimp (or thin UMC Remington brass).

I load a lot of .45 auto, both lead and hardball, and I've learned to expand the case mouth just barely enough so I don't shave bullets, and apply barely enough crimp (with a taper crimp die) so the loaded cartridge will drop freely into the chamber, and drop back out again when tipped up. I've also quit using Remington brass in my autos, I get setback no matter what I do.

Roll crimping for revolvers can't really be compared to taper crimping for autos, it serves a different purpose.
__________________
Common sense isn't so common.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-08-2009, 01:37 PM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Desert of AZ
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 5 Posts
Default

I have serious doubt that more catastrophic failures are caused by factory made ammo than by reloaded/handloaded homemade ammunition. I am sure that the people here that claim to be cautious are, but I am even more certain that there are careless/reckless reloaders out there. If there are more KBs caused by factory ammunition, we are in for more serious trouble than we think, as it will become impossible or WAY expensive for manufacturers to continue to be insured while paying out attorney's fees and damages for the subsequent litigation.

As for carrying commercially manufactured ammo for CCW, the kaboom factor is, well, not a factor. The reason for not carrying reloaded/handloaded ammo for CCW is how the 12 average/below average people that may decide your fate perceive reloading. If you aren't familiar with the voir dire process, anyone that has reloaded ammunition would be struck from the jury. Both sides can strike a potential juror for any or no reason, so long as it isn't based on race or sex. Limitless jurors can be struck "for cause." If you were to ask a criminal/civil defense lawyer about what gun/ammunition you should carry, MOST would suggest carrying whatever LEO carry/are issued in your jurisdiction. This sets up the easiest argument legally. Is a prosecutor or attorney for the plaintiff really going to argue that the firearm and ammunition selected by the law enforcement agency isn't suitable for self-defense? That is not something that a jury is going to buy. Stating however, that "this 'gun nut' was so overzealous about weapons, and was so eager to use his weapon any chance he got, he carried ammunition that he himself created," well, I can just see that argument being made. I myself, as I am sure all of you, do not believe that argument, but WE will not be on the jury. 12 people who know little about guns, and NOTHING about reloading will be the ones who are in charge.

Sorry if this got off track, but it was mentioned in the OP, so I thought it was relevant. JMHO.

BTW, I roll my own. Not a hater.

Last edited by ajpelz; 12-08-2009 at 01:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:06 PM
chasmatic chasmatic is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 59
Likes: 1
Liked 25 Times in 15 Posts
Default 1911PD kaboom

Here's what happened to me: reloads, 230fmj with 5.2gr win231. Double charge totally my fault. Thank God for the grips, scandium gun turned into claymore.

Now on, all steel for me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg kaboom6.jpg (59.6 KB, 3749 views)
File Type: jpg kaboom8.jpg (62.4 KB, 768 views)
File Type: jpg kaboom12.jpg (79.2 KB, 413 views)
File Type: jpg kaboom13.jpg (71.5 KB, 1778 views)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:13 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Smile Making sure we understand the statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flat top View Post
I also think that my handloads are safer than mass produced factory ammunition, but again...thats just me! I guess that as much as I appreciate all the high technology that has made our lives easier, there are just some things that for some reason I cant accept.
Quote:
I have serious doubt that more catastrophic failures are caused by factory made ammo than by reloaded/handloaded homemade ammunition.
Just to keep things on an even keel, I agree with flat top about our, his and my, handloads. The issue he is speaking to is not just the fact of them going BANG too loud but to them going BANG at all.

Ammunition can fail in the "negative" sense too. That could be just as dangerous as having a "positive" failure, one that goes bang TOO big!

aj,
You are welcome to bring up the issue of handloads for CCW here, I don't want to get off track from the issue at hand though.

One thing I refuse to do is live in fear of something that has NEVER happened. The issue of handloads in a self defense shooting has NEVER been an issue in any case. The issue has NEVER gotten to a jury as a point in any case. A murder/suicide? Yes, it has. Bice, I think was the name.

As soon as it does become a REAL issue, and if handloads are illegal in your state for CCW-obey the law, and a court makes that distinction, we will all hear about it as the NRA will have conniption fits! With us right along with them!

Just remember, it is recent history where everyone that carried a loaded firearm HAD to do so with their own handloads. It just was done from the barrel end!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:20 PM
dennis40x dennis40x is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 661
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8AmericanBash View Post
Try this link. You may have to be a member to view it, I'm not sure.
If you can't see it, I'll post the pics here.
Skip thats the link you need.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dennis40x View Post
Skip thats the link you need.
Thank you sir!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-08-2009, 02:54 PM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Desert of AZ
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 5 Posts
Default

The sentence which you quoted me saying was not aimed at flat top, or anyone in particular. Just a SWAG on my part. I must have misinterpreted your OP.
Quote:
The caliber of this firearm is one that is not usually associated with a KB, but it did happen, and it happened with factory ammo.

Remember those diehard factory ammo for CCW folks?
I took that as you were suggesting KBs happen more with factory ammo than reloads in general. If that was not your contention, my mistake on the interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Just to keep things on an even keel, I agree with flat top about our, his and my, handloads. The issue he is speaking to is not just the fact of them going BANG too loud but to them going BANG at all.

Ammunition can fail in the "negative" sense too. That could be just as dangerous as having a "positive" failure, one that goes bang TOO big!

aj,
You are welcome to bring up the issue of handloads for CCW here, I don't want to get off track from the issue at hand though.

One thing I refuse to do is live in fear of something that has NEVER happened. The issue of handloads in a self defense shooting has NEVER been an issue in any case. The issue has NEVER gotten to a jury as a point in any case. A murder/suicide? Yes, it has. Bice, I think was the name.

As soon as it does become a REAL issue, and if handloads are illegal in your state for CCW-obey the law, and a court makes that distinction, we will all hear about it as the NRA will have conniption fits! With us right along with them!

Just remember, it is recent history where everyone that carried a loaded firearm HAD to do so with their own handloads. It just was done from the barrel end!
I agree with just about all of that. The only difference is, I guess, I would rather be safe than sorry. Most of us know about Fish, Bias, Alverez, etc....I would NOT want to be the name that a legal doctrine or famous case was founded upon. If I HAD to use reloads, I would, but I have hundreds or thousands of rounds of ammo like Speer Gold Dot, HydraShoks, HST, Golden Sabres, on and on.... I just carry those, no reason not to.
My local LEO are carrying a Glock 22 with Federal HSTs.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-08-2009, 03:03 PM
Snapping Twig's Avatar
Snapping Twig Snapping Twig is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Posts: 3,504
Likes: 527
Liked 3,813 Times in 1,243 Posts
Default

I've heard quite a bit about KB in a Glock .40, most of it centers around case head support, copper vs. lead rounds for polygonal rifling and ultimately - pressure.

I would imagine that with typical reloading safety proceedures and workups, sticking with copper jacketed rounds, there'd be little worries.

I've heard that lead can be used, but extra care must be given to avoid build-up.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-08-2009, 03:06 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

aj,
OK, got it. The point I was making in those original posts was this: There is a faction that calls for ONLY using factory ammo in CCW situations. There is also a faction that claims that ALL KB's in firearms come from handloaded ammunition. My point is this, this happened with factory ammo, just as it has happened in other calibers (9mm, 40S&W) and that should take some of the "steam" out of that argument. Knowing that it can happen should make us, those that load for Glocks and other unsupported chamber firearms, more cautious in loading for them.

I hope that clears up any difference we have on the issues!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-08-2009, 03:36 PM
NKJ nut's Avatar
NKJ nut NKJ nut is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 83
Liked 80 Times in 43 Posts
Default

The only KB I have ever had was with a SIG P228. The gun was new and I was firing factory ammo. I still sometimes shoot factory ammo and i still have several SIGS, even though I have been carrying a Glock 19 lately. I haven't read anything here to make me change. A KB can happen with any firearm. Whether you choose factory ammo or handloads, don't ever think you are exempt from Murphy's law. Also both type's of ammo (and the guns) are made by human beings. Humans have a long history of making mistakes.
__________________
too TOO young!!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-08-2009, 04:05 PM
MWAG MWAG is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: atlanta, georgia
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
.......unsupported chamber firearms.......
what does this terminology mean?
__________________
s&w 500 magnum, "sweeeet"!!!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-08-2009, 04:50 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

MWAG,
I hope Dennis will grace us with his photographs once again of his various barrels showing the chambers of each.

Basically it means this: "Any firearm that has a portion of the chamber removed." In recent times, and that is all I can speak to, it shows up most of the time in semi-automatic handguns where the need to have the rounds chamber automatically, a portion of that chamber is removed for part of the feed ramp.

In a lot of firearms, the feed ramp is part of the frame, in older 1911's as an illustration.

If Dennis posts the pictures I have spoken about it will be self evident. If not, I'll try to find some of my own.

In my opinion, and that ain't worth much, some of those "run all the time" semi-auto handguns have had the chamber attacked to make them so. Adjusting the feed ramp angle and polishing them will only take you so far. The shorter the firearm, the less the slide moves, the less the barrel tips, yada, yada, yada, the more one has to turn their attention to other areas to get them to run right. I could be WAY wrong.

Jessie,
Is that Sig one of those that is considered one of those with an unsupported chamber?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-08-2009, 05:02 PM
DougE's Avatar
DougE DougE is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richmond, KY
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Here is one thread Dennis started on unsupported chambers:The often mentioned unsupported chamber issue G17 and MP9
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:03 PM
handgunner356 handgunner356 is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SE Iowa on the Mississipp
Posts: 3,137
Likes: 1
Liked 352 Times in 230 Posts
Default

I've witness several KaBooms, 2 involved both a S&W99 and a Walther 99 in forty. Both were firing factory ammo, 1 Federal and 1 Remington and required new frames. I believe both of these guns actually fired out of battery, but that is just my guess. Another was a 10mm Glock and he was doing the big no-no, shooting lead till he chambered it down to a 9mm, that caused him some hand burns and got him a new frame and a nasty letter. The thing is there are many factors that come in to play, but it is caused from TOO much pressure for the gun to handle. It is just bound to show up more offen the higher pressure cartridges to start with like the 40 and 10.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:13 PM
captainjohnsofd captainjohnsofd is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bainbridge Island, Wa.
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Liked 117 Times in 71 Posts
Default

Besides setback, there are a couple possible causes. A plugged barrel (by a projectile) will cause a catastrophic failure. A double charged case will also do it. Less likely but still possible.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:23 PM
dennis40x dennis40x is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 661
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MWAG View Post
what does this terminology mean?

The barrel on the left is the Glock-21 OEM barrel. The barrel on the right is an after market BarSto barrel for the G21 with conventional rifling. Note the throating of the feed ramp and the protrusion of the throating into the chamber and the radius contouring on the chambers circumference.



Both barrels exhibit non-support of the cartridge case notably in the feed ramp throating area with the Glock OEM more so than the BarSto.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:44 PM
ajpelz ajpelz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Desert of AZ
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Nice pics Dennis.

Truly shows how unsupported these cartridges are.

I am still thinking something was wrong with the barrel. Either an obstruction or out of spec....

What do you guys think?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-08-2009, 06:57 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Talking Hope you forgive me!

Dennis,
I added some information to your picture. I hope you don't mind. The picture is awesome but for instructional purposes I thought it would be just a tad better with arrows.



The text is "truncated" to fit on the picture. What it should say about the cases is this: "The case on the left has the feed ramp extend into the chamber far enough that the case wall is unsupported while the case on the left is supported all the way to the internal web."

I hope that makes sense!
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-08-2009, 08:00 PM
shovelwrench's Avatar
shovelwrench shovelwrench is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pennsylvania 17963
Posts: 1,221
Likes: 194
Liked 170 Times in 89 Posts
Default

I think the big problem here is how obvious it is that an overpressure event can happen (whether its setback, or overcharge),and that certain handgun manufacturers fail to support cartridges enough that when it does happen, it goes out the barrel.

Why is it the Barsto barrel has WAY more support and still functions reliably, but Glock still makes barrels with the chamber throat so generous? When I built myself a 1911 in .38super, I put a ramped barrel in it, Why.. Full case support.

And I'm no engineer

It would probably help if more was done to educate people shooting autos about setback. I see it in my carry ammo, I rotate rounds, and shoot my magfull away after a while. The bugger about the kabooms you see with factory ammo is how do know if it was setback, flawed brass, overpressure, chamber support......

I'd bet its a combination of all these, but once that round goes off, how do you tell.. Would full chamber support eliminate this from happening, no, but it would cut it way down.IMO
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-08-2009, 08:13 PM
BruceM's Avatar
BruceM BruceM is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 7
Liked 657 Times in 369 Posts
Default

"Another was a 10mm Glock and he was doing the big no-no, shooting lead till he chambered it down to a 9mm, that caused him some hand burns and got him a new frame and a nasty letter."

Are you being facetious about the bore being leaded to that extent? If not, how as that determined and would the cause of the KB have been operator error?

A lot has been written about shooting cast bullets from Glocks because of the polygonal rifling. I know Glock does not recommend it but, then again, I know of no manufacturer who approves of shooting any reloaded ammo thru their guns. They seen to suggest that there is a systemic problem with shooting lead bullets thru the polygonal rifling which leads to leading, dramatically increased pressures and the subsequent KB. One fellow on the Glock Forum insists that an engineer who works as an expert witness in some suits against Glock has been able to reproduce the KB scenario but after that, detailed information other than the bullet used in the test had a BHN of 21 (linotype) is not given. The diameter of the bullet, bore diameter, bullet shape, lubricant and propellant charge are held confidential.

I have never had a leading issue with the polygonal rifling in my Springfield Armory Omega 10mm. Is the rifling in the Glock substantially different? I wouldn't think so but I'm curious. Is this a known issue with other handguns with polygonal rifling? You would think that the amount of lead fouling would have to be enormous in order to raise chamber pressures beyond that of a proof load and to the point of a catastrophic failure. It would seem more likely to me that the cause of the KB would be firing out of battery because of lead buildup at the lip of the chamber or setback of the cast bullet. Possibly it's not the polygonal rifling but the amount of leade (freebore) or lack of same in the Glock barrel which is the root of the problem?

I guess I need more information. I doubt that any of the resident reloading guru's at the gunzines will touch this with a 10 foot pole which is too bad.



Bruce

Last edited by BruceM; 12-08-2009 at 08:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-08-2009, 08:43 PM
dennis40x dennis40x is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 661
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Default

An important reference to understanding the Glock pistol: The Clock in Competition A shooters how to guide 2nd Ed (Chapters 1-3 & 1-4) extremely informative
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-08-2009, 09:36 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Talking Who needs them gun rag writers anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceM View Post
I guess I need more information. I doubt that any of the resident reloading guru's at the gunzines will touch this with a 10 foot pole which is too bad.



Bruce
Who needs them anyway? We have enough knowledge here on this forum to be of help to one another! Bruce and others here like canoe on the yukon, and just a ton of other fine folks can share what all of us need to know to be safe and efficient in reloading for these kinds of firearms.

We will do it with knowledge and that is a good thing!

Dennis,
Without violating the copyright laws concerning the book you posted, can you provide a synopsis of what those chapters have to say?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-08-2009, 10:13 PM
dennis40x dennis40x is offline
Banned
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 661
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Default

[QUOTE=smith crazy;
Dennis,
Without violating the copyright laws concerning the book you posted, can you provide a synopsis of what those chapters have to say?[/QUOTE]

Chapter 1-3 Handloading for the Glock: Basically covers reloading the Glock for various shooting disciplines.

Chapter 1-4 The Exploding Glock. Fact or Fiction by Mark Passamaneck, P.E. TY 40422. Subjects: Do Glocks fail when fed lead bullets – An attempted Lawsuit – Pressure barrel tests – Blowing up a Glock 22 – Can’t I just watch the primers – Learning the hard way - Case failures, tight bores, and loose chambers – Now the solutions – More lab work on KBS – Words to the wise.

Those two chapters worth the price of the book alone $19.95 purchased in 2006.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:12 PM
handgunner356 handgunner356 is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SE Iowa on the Mississipp
Posts: 3,137
Likes: 1
Liked 352 Times in 230 Posts
Default

Bruce, I might be adding a little bit to the story, but he did shoot enough in the 10mm Glock to the point of raising pressures. Now was it a problem of bullet set back, unsupported chamber, out-of-battery, overcharged load or combination of all? The barrel was leaded enough I could not see the rifling till the last couple of inches of barrel. I found in my own 24 I could get by about 150 rounds till I was filling in the rifling. I would use a dential pick (and lots of elbow) to clean it out. A few years later and I pick up a 35 and shooting the very same loads I could easily shoot 500rds without hardly any buildup. Now did Glock change their rifling or was it just individual gun properties? Anyway back to the 10mm, he sent it in to Glock and they fixed it with a stern warning not to shoot lead bullets.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-08-2009, 11:31 PM
jrplourde's Avatar
jrplourde jrplourde is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Greenfield, NH
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default A questionable cartridge

The issue of deeper seated bullets in a 40S&W is not new at all, it's been well written. But the question of a bullet creep of a few mils being a problem suggests that the thing is operating at some ragged edge and the design of the thing needs reevaluation, redesign or abandonment.

Combine that with the Glock barrel with it's higher pressure potential and the unsupported chamber and it sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

Further it has been suggested above, and I have thought about this before, that the Glock bulge is likely to result in a weak spot during resizing (unequal redistribution of the brass) and reloading should be avoided. What is likely to happen if that same weak spot lines up next time around at the same unsupported spot? No mystery here.

The 9mm is a high pressure cartridge, been around for over 100 years and never has it been described as operating at some ragged edge where a few mil makes a difference.

One can blow up any gun with a bad reload but I will never have any need for a 40 cal in my collection. It's a solution looking for a problem and then can become one.

Skip has indicated he has loaded mucho rounds for his many Glocks with no problem. Lord love him but I want no part of it.

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-09-2009, 01:53 AM
Paul5388's Avatar
Paul5388 Paul5388 is offline
US Veteran
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Rusk Co. Texas
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times in 31 Posts
Default

About a year ago, I posted about my #2 son-in-law blowing the guts out of a Glock M36 (I think that's the model of the .45 ACP he was using). The gun had just over a box of shells run through it when it happened and he wasn't using reloads.

Since he has now eaten the costs of repair, so much for wonderful warranties, he now uses a Colt Lightweight Commander.

The 1911 platform has been around for almost 100 years and the KB incidents have been much fewer than with the new wonder plastic guns. With the 1911 being used in WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam, I would venture to say there has been much more ammunition used in them than any of the plastic guns.

Come to think of it, I don't hear about very many KBs in the M9 or its .40 S&W variant.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-09-2009, 03:39 AM
Steve C Steve C is offline
Member
Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 727
Likes: 1
Liked 133 Times in 93 Posts
Default

Over the years I've seen pictures and read about several Glock 45's having KB's just like their .40 s&w pistols do. Cause is usually reloaded ammo that has ruptured the case in the unsupported area.

You see similar occurances in the 1911's, usually those that have a barrel that was heavily chamfered to improve feeding.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-09-2009, 04:38 AM
BruceM's Avatar
BruceM BruceM is offline
Member
Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up! Glock blows up!  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeast Wisconsin
Posts: 1,750
Likes: 7
Liked 657 Times in 369 Posts
Default

"The barrel was leaded enough I could not see the rifling till the last couple of inches of barrel. I found in my own 24 I could get by about 150 rounds till I was filling in the rifling. I would use a dential pick (and lots of elbow) to clean it out. A few years later and I pick up a 35 and shooting the very same loads I could easily shoot 500rds without hardly any buildup. Now did Glock change their rifling or was it just individual gun properties?"

It seems that leading in the breach end of the bore is caused by undersized bullets which do not seal the bore and therefore suffer from gas blowing by the base of the bullet. Also, the fact that some barrels exhibit this problem and some don't leads me to believe that there is something going on with the manufacturing process of the barrel itself. Possibly the tolerances for the barrels themselves is an issue (dimensional and smoothness). If the bore is tighter at the muzzle than at the breach, this would present a problem with cast bullet loads that wouldn't exist with jacketed ammo. It seems that Double Tap tests their real deal 10mm ammo in Glock pistols and a problem of this nature would not go unnoticed. Also, anyone shooting cast bullets who encounters a severe leading problem at the breach end of the bore (or anywere in the bore for that matter) should start investigating the source of the problem immediately. It's very odd that at one end of the spectrum many Glock owners shoot cast bullet handloads with no issues at all and at the other are the KB's which are frequent enough that Glock sees fit to issue a formal notice prohibiting the use of cast bullets in their guns.

Regarding bullet set back and crimping, I don't feel the solution to that problem is just more crimp or less case mouth belling. If you have to crimp the bullets to the point that they actually exhibit deformation, there is something else going on there IMO. The first place I would start looking is the ID of the resized case and the OD of the expander plug. Just as in reloading magnum revolver cartridges which have healthy doses of slow burning powders, you don't get good combustion by just crimping the bejesus out of the round. You need tight bullet pull which means that the case must be sized sufficiently and the expander must be a few thousands of an inch smaller that the bullet's diameter. The crimp is the last line of defense, not the first. The military used to use a bullet sealer to accomplish this as did some commercial ammo and I still recall factory .38 special and .45 acp target loads with cases which featured a cannelure to prevent bullet setback. Anyway, the purpose of the taper crimp die is to remove case mouth belling and provide a little bit of a snugger fit for the bullet. If you get too much of a taper crimp, it's possible to find yourself in round headspacing on the extractor condition.

Bruce

Last edited by BruceM; 12-09-2009 at 04:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
1911, barsto, browning, colt, commander, commercial, extractor, fouling, glock, idpa, m36, military, nra, primer, remington, sig arms, sigma, springfield, universal, walther, winchester, wwi, wwii

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
So a guy blows up his head and... zzzippper The Lounge 31 07-09-2015 06:29 AM
S&W blows away earnings estimate. doublesharp The Lounge 3 12-06-2012 09:48 PM
.44 mag blows up with Chinese ammo! Nevadadvx S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 7 11-24-2010 11:03 PM
Judge Judy blows one? DeadAye The Lounge 29 05-06-2010 02:34 PM
Texas blows. Farmer17 The Lounge 3 01-14-2010 04:16 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:40 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)