Hot rodding the 45 Colt

[Skip Sackett]

I want to start this thread off with this disclaimer: "The loads I am discussing here are for use in Ruger and Thompson Center Contender/Encore and other firearms of that construction."

The reason I am not including Smith & Wesson revolvers is not because I don't think they can take "it". It is because of their construction, the "swinging crane" part of them.

The Ruger has a axle through a solid frame and cylinder. The T/C construction reminds me of a test barrel, so to speak, as there are no moving parts.

The loads I am going to discuss here are being shot from my new Ruger Blackhawk 45 caliber convertible. Like it's 22 caliber cousin, the Ruger Single Six, this firearm came with two cylinders. One for the 45 Colt of course and one for 45ACP. (This would be a really neat addition to the Smith & Wesson line too folks! Hello, Hello, any Smith people listening?)

At any rate, I started at the reload bench with the 45Colt. I have run some pretty hot stuff out of the 45AR cartridge already and was excited to start working on this old workhorse. What I found was amazing! There are some REALLY hot loads out there for the 45Colt and to be honest, I'm not sure I WANT to shoot them!

All kidding aside, I took this 5 1/2" barreled revolver to the range today to shoot Elmer's load out of it. The bullet was an H&G #502, 240gr LSWC (245+gr from my alloy), over 19.5gr of 2400. Now just so you know, Elmer's maximum suggested load for the 45Colt was 20gr of 2400.

To say the least, from this light of a revolver, no underlug and such, recoil was excessive. I averaged just over 1150fps and all the shots at 20 yards were touching.

Thinking that this was "THE LOAD" for the 45Colt, I was pretty much patting myself on the back. Then I opened the Lee #2 manual and got a real shock! In the 45Colt, Ruger/TC only section they have data that rivals the 44mag!

A 250gr XTP @ over 1500fps! WOW! Loaded over H110 no less! Did I say WOW yet?

I know that Pierce, Taffin, Linebaugh and others have some real thumpers too. Some questions for my comrades on this forum though are these:

"What kind of loads have you messed with in the 45Colt? Have any of you Cowboy Action shooters done any carbine work with these loads? Care to share?"

[Gun 4 Fun]

Skip,

The .45 Colt is my favorite round, and I have owned a slew of guns in this chambering, including the ones I own right now. I have owned the same gun that you have, but I didn't have the extra ACP cylinder.

Get yourself a copy of Handloader #217 , and read Brian Pearce's article on loading the .45 for different frame paltforms. It is the single best article I have ever read on the subject. The loads are all pressure tested too. If you are interested in some of my data, I can go look it up for you.

For a real eye opener, look at what the Redhawk will take! 50,000PSI, and safely too. But those loads are only for the Redhawk (not the Blackhawk) and the F/A 83.

[Gun 4 Fun]

By the way, I know not all Blackhawks will suffer from this, but quite a few have tight throats in them, running right around .448"-.450" (the last is quite common), but mine were right on at .452", and so was the bore when I slugged it (3 times).

Also, check your bore right over the screw that holds the ejector rod housing on. I had to return mine to the shop I bought it, because the factory had run the drill for the pilot hole so deep, it left a buldge in the bore. When I got back to the gunshop, we went through three more before finding one without the buldge. I doubt you will have that trouble, but it can't hurt to check.

[Keith Brown]

I've shot the .45 Colt quite a bit in the Smith 25 and Ruger Bisleys. The only .45 Colts I have now are the Bisleys, they are the proper home for hot rounds in this caliber IMO. The 240 is a light bullet in the .45 Colt, my favorite all around bullet is a home cast RCBS 270, I've run this bullet from about 800 fps to 1400. Another bullet I use and like is the Lee310 GC, I've shot a bunch of these at 1325 and they are very accurate benched at 25 yards with groups under two inches not a problem. I'm aware that a 250 swc at 850 fps is plenty for almost anything that walks but the .45 Colt Bisley is one I just plain enjoy shooting hot loads in. I have several Contenders but no straight wall cartridge barrels except the .22lr.

Keith

[redlevel]

A 255 grain SWC over 10 grains of Unique, according to a couple of different manuals I have used over the years, will chronograph right around 1000fps from a Blackhawk with 7.5 inch barrel. In my personal experience, this load will penetrate a 160 lb Georgia Whitetail deer from shoulder to shoulder, sometimes exiting the off shoulder, but often "pooching up" under the skin of the off shoulder. Same results with the same load from a Winchester Trapper short rifle. The deer usually drop in their tracks, and I've never had one go more than 25 yards. I started using that load in 1973 when I bought one of the first .45 Colt Blackhawks, and I have never seen a need for a different load. I have recently dropped the load back to 9 grains of Unique, but since I still have several hundred rounds of the old load, I haven't used it extensively. I shoot the 10 grain load in my Vaqueros and Mountain gun as well as in the Blackhawk.

From John Linebaugh:
Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Legend
I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt. My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards. In my estimation it kills as well as the .270, 30-06 class rifles if the shots are placed properly. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . My wife is 5' 1" and goes about 100 lbs with her gun on. She likes the power the .45 gives her with a minimum of recoil and blast. She has hunted with me for 15 years now and is a very serious handgun shooter. I think the .45 Colt has a lot to do with this as it gives her big bore power without big bore recoil and blast. My sons also shoot the .45 Colt a lot and I had the pleasure to watch my oldest son, age 14 take a nice mule deer buck this year with a 5 1/2" Colt SAA at about 90 yards range. The load, 260 Keith at 900 fps. Its plain, no bells or whistles, but it works every time.

Here's my three-screw Blackhawk. I gave right at $100 for it in 1973, with a box of shells. I think I am still loading a few of that original box. The revolver is "on loan" to my nephew this deer season. He was hoping to purchase a .45 revolver to hunt with this season, but a new baby, a kitchen renovation, and a teacher's salary made that impossible. He hasn't scored with it yet, but I'm still hopeful of getting some sausage out of the deal. I gave him a handful of my loads to sight in and to hunt with.

[Snapping Twig]

Good on you for experimenting and succeeding.

I go the 900fps route with my colt, it's a 25-7 and if I want a magnum I can shoot a .44mag or a Casull.

Personally, I get a kick out of a mildly recoiling pistol that can shoot a 255g SWC through a horse at 100 yards and kill whatever is hiding behind it without being a magnum.

[David Sinko]

I have a Bowen Redhawk Alpine Conversion that began life as a .44 Magnum and was promptly re-bored and re-chambered to .45 Colt. It has shot thousands of rounds of 255 gr. SWC and RF at 944 FPS. My heavy load is a 335 gr. LFN at 1260 FPS, out of the 4" barrel. I actually carried this revolver concealed for a few years (even in the summer) and shot quite a few chipmunks and groundhogs with it. The heavy load has taken one whitetail, which I shot between the eyes at around 15 yards. Sadly, this revolver sees almost no use these days because I have already worn it out once and Ruger refuses to fix custom revolvers. Bowen had an extraordinarily hard time acquiring the parts to fix it. Besides, my .45 ACP 625s will shoot 255 gr. bullets close to 1000 FPS, accomplishing all that I need a .45 revolver to do.

Dave Sinko

[MTAustin]

Attaboy. You found one of the most versatile handgun cartridges out there, and now your really getting into the fun stuff.

I also use RCBS 270-SAA Keith-type bullets; cast by me they come to about 285 grains. 18.5 grains of 2400 with this bullet is a good thumper in my 5 1/2" BH.

Never played around with H110/WW296.

You may also want to read Brian Pearce's article in the April 2007 Handloader. It's all about RCBS 270-SAA and the 45 Colt. Lots of good load data, if you're predisposed to this bullet.

[Skip Sackett]

Read the disclaimer in the original post!

I got to thinking. I know, with such limited capacity, that can be a dangerous thing!

At any rate, it was considering case volume versus powder charge with bullet weight.

Think about this with me. A 44Mag case is the same length, 1.285", as the 45Colt. The OAL for a bunch of corresponding bullet weights is the same for each cartridge too. With the difference in diameter, .480" to .457" = .023", there is considerably more volume in a 45Colt case than a 44Mag case.

Stay with me here. Bullet seating depth, for the same weight bullet is going to be less with a 45Colt too because of the increased diameter, weight for weight. A 240gr LSWC in the 45Colt is going to be shorter, maybe not much but shorter, than a 240gr LSWC in 44 caliber. Would you agree with this? As long as they are of the same type, i.e. Keith style where the driving bands and lube groove are of equal size and such.

Does this make sense?

So, a bullet that is the same weight, that has less seating depth combined with the greater diameter of the case SHOULD mean that the same weight of powder charge is going to give less pressure in that larger case. Do you agree?

Case in point: 38spl versus 357Mag. I can take a 38spl load and put it in a 357Mag case and while it may not be linear or directly proportional, it is going to be less pressure. Vice-a-versa the pressure would be much greater confining a 357Mag load in a 38spl case.

Help me think this through.

I am not going to take a 300gr 44mag load and put it in a 45Colt case, that isn't the point. I am just trying to work through, to think through, the internal ballistics of case volume/powder charge.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[Gun 4 Fun]

Bingo!

In a heavy framed revolver only, the .45 Colt can do exactly the same thing as the .44 magnum, but at much lower pressures. At the top end, that means the .45 Colt can do at 32,000 CUP ( again in heavy framed guns like the Blackhawk, and Redhawk, F/A), what the .44 magnum can do at 40,000 CUP. That is an obvious advantage for the .45, in terms of gun life, muzzle blast, recoil, etc. The .45 has a much wider cross sectional area for the expanding gasses to push against. Case head thrust against the recoil shield, which is what tends to stretch a frame, is less also.

[shovelwrench]

I shot a buck yesterday morning with a 300gr XTP over 24gr of H110, they go about 1350fps. 30yds, and right in the neck, dropped like a ton of bricks.

[VAdoublegunner]

When I first got a Blackhawk, then a Redhawk, I felt it essential to experiment with the "Ruger Only" whopper loads. Why? Just because I could! I liked the fact that you could obtain similar ballistics at lower pressures than a 44 Mag. Plus, I thought it would make it more versatile as a hunting choice. So I loaded up 300 gr Sierra and Hornady jacketed bullets to 32k psi levels with huge doses of 296. Big thunder and lightning, no doubt about it!! Some of my 250 gr Hornady loads for the Redhawk did approach the 50k psi levels, at least based on Pearce's (later) published information in Handloader.

Lately, I've been experimenting with Lil'Gun (yeah, I know about the erosion issues) in 45 Colt and like the way it performs. Lower pressures yielding good velocity, and accuracy has been excellent. I like those loads in a Win 94 carbine or 92 rifle. It seems to work best for heavy for caliber bullets and longer barrels.

But you know what? As good as those handgun loads worked for accuracy and as field loads, when I discovered the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet, that all changed. I load that up to moderately stiff levels, but nothing that is necessarily in the Ruger Only category. Post WWII Colt SAAs should be able to handle them. I use 20.0gr of 2400, which is not a particularly hot load. It will completely penetrate any critter that needs penetrating on the east coast and performs so well for accuracy and lethality that I've not needed anything else in a handgun for quite a while. I don't mind shooting those in my S&W 25-13 at all (952 fps). It is probably one of the best cast bullets ever devised for the 45 Colt.

Now in a carbine, like my Win 94 Trapper, I still like the WW296 loads with 300 or 250 gr jacketed bullets. Those loads easily exceed 45-70 ballistics and are superbly accurate. If I need a heavy hitter, that's what works. It's a handy little rifle to carry too!

If I was in Alaska or out west where I had to worry about big bears chewing on me, I'd load up some 300gr thumpers for the Redhawk and feel well armed. But for the most part, I don't need to rely on those as much anymore. The 270SAA loads will adequately let the air out of and discourage any eastern black bears, I'm fairly certain.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by MTAustin

Attaboy. You found one of the most versatile handgun cartridges out there, and now your really getting into the fun stuff.

I also use RCBS 270-SAA Keith-type bullets; cast by me they come to about 285 grains. 18.5 grains of 2400 with this bullet is a good thumper in my 5 1/2" BH.

Never played around with H110/WW296.

You may also want to read Brian Pearce's article in the April 2007 Handloader. It's all about RCBS 270-SAA and the 45 Colt. Lots of good load data, if you're predisposed to this bullet.

This is also my bullet of choice, either solid or HP. With a shallow cup point & cast 25-1, they go about 265gr & expand well @ 1000fps. Unique, 2400, IMR4227 or H110 all work well for 1000fps loads that fall from the cyl. I did have to polish out the tight cyl throats to get better accuracy & less leading., They came in right @ 0.450" & I took them to 0.4155" for use w a 0.452" 280gr+LSWC.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by shovelwrench

I shot a buck yesterday morning with a 300gr XTP over 24gr of H110, they go about 1350fps. 30yds, and right in the neck, dropped like a ton of bricks.

Shovel,
What was the firearm? I am assuming that the cartridge was the 45Colt.

That is a lot of smack down power, Dude!

[Skip Sackett]

VA,
Which carbine action do you believe is stronger? The '92 or Marlin 1894?

That's the next thing that is coming home with me, a rifle in 45Colt of some kind. Maybe a Puma '92 or something. One with deeper rifling so I can shoot cast loads better.

Fred,
Those are awesome looking bullets.

I need a mould like that!

[VAdoublegunner]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

VA,
Which carbine action do you believe is stronger? The '92 or Marlin 1894?

That's the next thing that is coming home with me, a rifle in 45Colt of some kind. Maybe a Puma '92 or something. One with deeper rifling so I can shoot cast loads better.

I would probably default to the modern '92 action as being stronger. I say that because the Rossi Puma is being chambered in .454 Casull. Winchester had to develop the "Big Bore 94" extra reinforced receivers for a step up in horsepower. So, while the Win '94s seem to handle 32k psi Ruger loads with no problem, at least in my experience, they apparently cannot compete with the 92s twin lug arrangement for strength. I'm not aware of them being chambered in anything near the 454s power level, but since they handle 44 mags just fine then the parallel to revolver strength seems logical. My '92 is a Winchester/Miroku, a very well made rifle, but I can report that its crescent steel buttplate is no fun with the thumper loads!! The Marlin 1894 is also a very strong action, but I havent heard of them handling 454s either. It is a slightly lighter frame than their 1895 45/70 models, which can take some pretty substantial loads.

[ms]

Originally Posted by Gun 4 Fun

Bingo!

In a heavy framed revolver only, the .45 Colt can do exactly the same thing as the .44 magnum, but at much lower pressures. At the top end, that means the .45 Colt can do at 32,000 CUP ( again in heavy framed guns like the Blackhawk, and Redhawk, F/A), what the .44 magnum can do at 40,000 CUP. That is an obvious advantage for the .45, in terms of gun life, muzzle blast, recoil, etc. The .45 has a much wider cross sectional area for the expanding gasses to push against. Case head thrust against the recoil shield, which is what tends to stretch a frame, is less also.

Why is the case head thrust against the recoil shield less?

[shovelwrench]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

Shovel,
What was the firearm? I am assuming that the cartridge was the 45Colt.

That is a lot of smack down power, Dude!

Blackhawk 7-1/2" 45Colt

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally Posted by MS

Why is the case head thrust against the recoil shield less?

The .45 Colt can launch the same weight bullet at the same velocity, but at 20% lower chamber pressure (40,000 cup vs. 32,000 cup), which in turn equals less case head thrust.

[ms]

Lower pressure against larger bullet base = same velocity as .44 mag.

Lower pressure against larger case diameter = same thrust as .44 mag.

It goes both ways.

[Gun 4 Fun]

I am no engineer, and am only reporting what Pearce says in the article in Handloader #217, but the pressure is lower in the .45 because it has a much larger area to work against in relationship to the column or bore dimeter.

The case head thrust is reduced due to the same principles. Larger area to push against= reduced thrust. The stuff that Pearce talks about in that article, was tested at HP White labratory. It is their opinion, not mine.

[Skip Sackett]

Force = P*A
P=Pressure(whatever unit you want)
A=Area(whatever unit you want)

Force = 32,000psi * (pi*r^2) or (d^2 * pi/4) or (d^2*.7854)

d of a 45Colt case(inside) = .452"
A of a 45Colt case head(inside) = (.452" * .452") * .7854 = .160sq/inches
d of a 44Mag case(inside) = .430"
A of a 44Mag case head(inside) = (.430" *.430") * .7854 = .145sq/inches

It is obvious that the head area of the 44Mag case is smaller. Now take those numbers and multiply them by the pressure developed in the cartridge.

.160 * 32,000psi=5,120lbs of Force
.145 * 40,000psi=5,800lbs of Force

5,120/5,800 = 88%

The 45Colt has about 88% of the force against the frame as the 44Mag.

Think about this, which one would you want to get hit with? The one with more pressure with a smaller focal point or one that had a minimal amount less force with a bigger focal point?

It would seem to me, and I have engineered a tad, that the smaller focal point would mean deeper penetration, the bigger focal point would transfer that force to the object better.

Agreed?

(These formulas aren't from an article. It came from a 13 week college course a long time ago! )

[Gun 4 Fun]

I wouldn't want to get hit with either Skip.

Looks right to me though, and goes right along with all the numbers in that article. As Linebaugh says on his sight, the only real way to gain power in with a handgun round, is to go to a bigger wider bullet, since all handgun bullets slow very quickly to the speed of sound, then taper off noticably in losing velocity as quickly.

The thing about penetration is that the .45 usually will run a heavier bullet at roughly the same speed as the .44 will with a lighter bullet ie; 325 gr. vs. 300 gr. in the two rounds respectively, so penetartion will be about equal. When using the same weight bullet, then the .44 will have the edge.

If you would like a copy of the article Skip, I will have it in PDF form tomorrow evening. It really is worth having in your refference collection.

[ms]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

Force = P*A
P=Pressure(whatever unit you want)
A=Area(whatever unit you want)

Force = 32,000psi * (pi*r^2) or (d^2 * pi/4) or (d^2*.7854)

d of a 45Colt case(inside) = .452"
A of a 45Colt case head(inside) = (.452" * .452") * .7854 = .160sq/inches
d of a 44Mag case(inside) = .430"
A of a 44Mag case head(inside) = (.430" *.430") * .7854 = .145sq/inches

It is obvious that the head area of the 44Mag case is smaller. Now take those numbers and multiply them by the pressure developed in the cartridge.

.160 * 32,000psi=5,120lbs of Force
.145 * 40,000psi=5,800lbs of Force

5,120/5,800 = 88%

The 45Colt has about 88% of the force against the frame as the 44Mag.

Think about this, which one would you want to get hit with? The one with more pressure with a smaller focal point or one that had a minimal amount less force with a bigger focal point?

It would seem to me, and I have engineered a tad, that the smaller focal point would mean deeper penetration, the bigger focal point would transfer that force to the object better.

Agreed?

(These formulas aren't from an article. It came from a 13 week college course a long time ago! )

The point I've been trying to make, apparently not very well, is that if you increase the force against the bullet by increasing its diameter, you also increase the force against the frame. If a .45 Colt load pushes against its bullet as hard as a .44, it should also push backwards as hard as a .44.

I'm not clear on how a 32,000 psi load in a .45 Colt can push forward more than backward. But I'm willing to learn.

[Gun 4 Fun]

By increasing the base area of the bullet, you decrease pressures, not raise them, and that is also true on rearward thrust.

[tdan]

Skip.......What barrel length was used to get that 1500 fps with a Hornady XTP? Looking at my old Hornady #4 in their section for 45 Colt(Ruger & TC only), the fastest load for the 250 gr. XTP is 1350 using H4227. They had no loading with H-110 for that bullet. I'm betting H-110 would speed things up a bit. They also have a load for their 300gr. XTP with Win 296 that clocks 1300. That load would get my attention if shot from a Blackhawk. My brother-in-law has an old model Flat top in 45 Colt. If I bet him that he couldn't run off a cylinder full of that load, I'd damn sure win that bet! Test gun for these loads was a T/C Contender with a 10" barrel.

[Paul5388]

A longer barrel will create more velocity, but my 22" Handi rifle has only produced around 1450 fps so far. I was using a 270 gr bullet with 2400 and H4227.



A shorter bullet with more in the case, like an Oregon Trails 255 gr LSWC or a RCBS 255 gr LSWC, might boost the velocity some.

As you can see in this comparison, the Ohaus bullet, the one in the picture above, seats much shallower than any of the others, except the H&G.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by ms

The point I've been trying to make, apparently not very well, is that if you increase the force against the bullet by increasing its diameter, you also increase the force against the frame. If a .45 Colt load pushes against its bullet as hard as a .44, it should also push backwards as hard as a .44.

I'm not clear on how a 32,000 psi load in a .45 Colt can push forward more than backward. But I'm willing to learn.

MS,
You are exactly right. The force is equal in all directions @ 90* to the outside wall of the case, base of the bullet included.
We are talking NEAR 44Mag velocity, with less pressure. 80%.

I would never think of saying otherwise.
Does that help?

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by tdan

Skip.......What barrel length was used to get that 1500 fps with a Hornady XTP? Looking at my old Hornady #4 in their section for 45 Colt(Ruger & TC only), the fastest load for the 250 gr. XTP is 1350 using H4227. They had no loading with H-110 for that bullet. I'm betting H-110 would speed things up a bit. They also have a load for their 300gr. XTP with Win 296 that clocks 1300. That load would get my attention if shot from a Blackhawk. My brother-in-law has an old model Flat top in 45 Colt. If I bet him that he couldn't run off a cylinder full of that load, I'd damn sure win that bet! Test gun for these loads was a T/C Contender with a 10" barrel.

Dan,
Doesn't say what the length was in the Lee #2. I doubt though that they got that information from their own tests. Most of the data is from a manufacturer, either bullet or powder. Maybe it came from Hodgdon, not sure.

[Skip Sackett]

Paul,
I need to borrow that mould for about a month!

[ms]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

MS,
You are exactly right. The force is equal in all directions @ 90* to the outside wall of the case, base of the bullet included.
We are talking NEAR 44Mag velocity, with less pressure. 80%.

I would never think of saying otherwise.
Does that help?

I think so. The main issue I've had recently is that several members seem to think that pressure exerts less force when it has a greater area to press against. In a different thread someone was arguing that a 696 forcing cone had a strength advantage over one with a smaller diameter, since the pressure was over a greater area. In this thread, it has been argued that a larger case diameter reduces "thrust" against the frame. When I state something to the effect that the same pressure over a larger area = more force, someone always disagrees.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by ms

I think so. The main issue I've had recently is that several members seem to think that pressure exerts less force when it has a greater area to press against. In a different thread someone was arguing that a 696 forcing cone had a strength advantage over one with a smaller diameter, since the pressure was over a greater area. In this thread, it has been argued that a larger case diameter reduces "thrust" against the frame. When I state something to the effect that the same pressure over a larger area = more force, someone always disagrees.

ms,
Physics is physics is ............ Let's look at it from a Hydraulic perspective. The difference is this between the two, and it needs to be stated up front, hydraulic oil is only SLIGHTLY compressible. Gases and compressed air are significantly different. I use hydraulic oil as an example because there is no "loss" to figure into the equation.

OK, all of that being said, let's look at a real life situation.

I have a load, Xlbs. I am going to use a hydraulic cylinder to move that load. I am going to use a 2" diameter cylinder to move that load. The pressure needed to move it is going to be Xlbs/area of the piston end.

OK, real life numbers: 1000lb load, 2" cylinder. The square inches of the piston is 2^2 * .7854 or 3.1416sq/in. That would mean that I need to have a minimum of 318.309psi to move that 1000lb load. If I reduce the pressure by 80% to 254.65psi and use the same size cylinder, what happens? The load that I can move becomes less. OK, force is less. There is a place where it breaks over, so to speak. To do that though I would need a cylinder with an area of 3.9269sq/i or a cylinder with a piston diameter of 2.236". What happens if the difference in size is only .1" instead of the .236"?

Less force.

Is that clear as mud? There is a break over (for lack of a better term) point.

Maybe Dennis40X can explain it better, he is a bona fide Engineer.

[Skip Sackett]

Loaded up 6 rounds with WC820 Lot #47321. Now this lot number is very important. There are other lots of this powder that this load would be unsafe with. Read the disclaimer in the original post.

My lot of powder loads like H110/W296. I used Wolf Large Magnum Pistol Primers and 25gr of WC820 with the H&G #502.

I looked in the barrel but haven't cleaned the firearm yet and there seems to be a speck of leading, nothing more.

I ran these loads over the chronograph and was pleasantly surprised. Here are those results:
Low 1332fps
High 1365fps
Avg 1347fps
ES 32.6fps
SD 11.95fps

The recoil was substantial and so strong that shooting 50 or more at one time would require using a padded shooting glove.

What I need now is a M92 Lever Action rifle to test these in!

[shovelwrench]

One thing to watch with the '94/'92, chamber dimensions..

I have a saddle ring carbine, the chamber is pretty sloppy, to the point 10gr of Unique behind a 255LSWC bulges the brass noticeably. That load shows no other signs of pressure. My 24gr H110 behind a 300gr is just starting to flatten the primer in my Ruger.

Can I rely on the brass if I put my 300gr load in my levergun? Or am I gonna rupture the brass....

I haven't got the gumption to try it yet...

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally Posted by ms

I think so. The main issue I've had recently is that several members seem to think that pressure exerts less force when it has a greater area to press against. In a different thread someone was arguing that a 696 forcing cone had a strength advantage over one with a smaller diameter, since the pressure was over a greater area. In this thread, it has been argued that a larger case diameter reduces "thrust" against the frame. When I state something to the effect that the same pressure over a larger area = more force, someone always disagrees.

I am not disagreeing with what you say here, but maybe you don't understand what I am saying either.

The .45 Colt can do the same thing at less pressure, because it uses that pressure more efficiently since it has a larger area for the pressure to work against. If you look at the loads in the article, you see that the .45 is shoving 300-325 grain bullets to roughly the same speeds as the .44 shoves 240-250 grain bullets, while using darn close to the same amount, of the same exact powders. It does that at 32,000 CUP vs. 40,000 CUP for the .44 magnum. The .45 is working at less pressure, but using it more efficiently to move its bullets down the bore.

It is the same priciple that the British used in making the huge nitro express rounds. They went to a huge case with slightly more powder but the same weight bullet, to reduce pressure, while maintaining the same velocity.

What I do know, is that I have used a lot of the loads listed in Pearces article, and they worked great in my Blackhawk, and Redhawk, giving me nearly identical numbers over my chronograph as those he got. I have used the ones listed for S&W guns as well, and they too, worked as shown, with no problems what so ever.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by shovelwrench

One thing to watch with the '94/'92, chamber dimensions..

I have a saddle ring carbine, the chamber is pretty sloppy, to the point 10gr of Unique behind a 255LSWC bulges the brass noticeably. That load shows no other signs of pressure. My 24gr H110 behind a 300gr is just starting to flatten the primer in my Ruger.

Can I rely on the brass if I put my 300gr load in my levergun? Or am I gonna rupture the brass....

I haven't got the gumption to try it yet...

Shovel,
What would you suggest then for actions? What about the Marlin 1894?
Thanks!

[shovelwrench]

I'm not sayin the action is'nt strong enough, just that the Winchester I have has a pretty sloppy chamber. Others might be better.

I'm sure the action is plenty strong, I was reading some old posts on another forum just the other day, posted before the "Ruger Only Loads" were common. And one guy playin around was hittin over 2000fps with a 300gr from a 94. SCARY STUFF IMO.

I wish I had bookmarked that forum page, it was full of info.

[NiklasP]

Fellow shooters using 45 Colt chambered leverguns seem to have lots of oversize chambers. Two explanations are popular: 1) overly generous chamber IDs because of sloppy specs and 2) overly generous chambers to provide more reliable rapid-fire chambering of straight-walled case (pandering to Cowboy Action Shooters?). Don't forget, those Winchester 92s and 94s and Marlin 94s were designed for tapered (sometimes called bottlenecked) cases, such as 32-40, 38-55, 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, 25-20, 30-30, etc. Also, they all have sloping cartridge feed ramps, which work just fine with tapered cases, less well with straight-walled cases.

Niklas

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by shovelwrench

I'm not sayin the action is'nt strong enough, just that the Winchester I have has a pretty sloppy chamber. Others might be better.

I'm sure the action is plenty strong, I was reading some old posts on another forum just the other day, posted before the "Ruger Only Loads" were common. And one guy playin around was hittin over 2000fps with a 300gr from a 94. SCARY STUFF IMO.

I wish I had bookmarked that forum page, it was full of info.

Yeah,
There is a limit to this madness!

I don't want to go above that!

ms,
I am still thinking about your post. In my analogy with the hydraulics the point I am a little fuzzy on is what happens when the case head stops moving when it hits the frame and all the expanding gases work on the base of a bigger bullet. Theoretically, the load can be moved more easily because there is more area for the pressure to work against seeing it is the same weight as the bullet in the 44Mag. Just gotta think it through!

[Skip Sackett]

Shovel,
I acquired a Puma M92 in 45Colt. The chamber in this rifle must be a duplicate of yours! The case just ahead of the head swelled outward considerably, I'll measure it later.

I did get almost 1800fps with the WC820 load. Only problem is they were very inaccurate. I have a theory, see if you agree. I think the base of the bullet is burning, maybe not melting but burning, and causing it to spin uncontrollably.

I will get a "lead friendly" proven powder and go at it again. H110/W296 comes to mind. 2400 would be another and will get a chance too.

I can tell you this, that curved steel butt plate is MURDER with these loads!

One thing I like about the action is that the lever stays closed under recoil. My Marlin has to have help under it's 44Mag pressure. This one doesn't, I like that!

The action seems strong enough to keep things together. Back to the drawing board!

Any advice is welcome!

[Centenniel]

Originally Posted by Gun 4 Fun

I am not disagreeing with what you say here, but maybe you don't understand what I am saying either.

The .45 Colt can do the same thing at less pressure, because it uses that pressure more efficiently since it has a larger area for the pressure to work against. If you look at the loads in the article, you see that the .45 is shoving 300-325 grain bullets to roughly the same speeds as the .44 shoves 240-250 grain bullets, while using darn close to the same amount, of the same exact powders. It does that at 32,000 CUP vs. 40,000 CUP for the .44 magnum. The .45 is working at less pressure, but using it more efficiently to move its bullets down the bore.

It is the same priciple that the British used in making the huge nitro express rounds. They went to a huge case with slightly more powder but the same weight bullet, to reduce pressure, while maintaining the same velocity.

What I do know, is that I have used a lot of the loads listed in Pearces article, and they worked great in my Blackhawk, and Redhawk, giving me nearly identical numbers over my chronograph as those he got. I have used the ones listed for S&W guns as well, and they too, worked as shown, with no problems what so ever.


I have it on PDF now, for anyone who wants it. Just PM me your e-mail addy, and I'll send it out to you.

PM sent. Thanks!

[Skip Sackett]

I have it on PDF now, for anyone who wants it. Just PM me your e-mail addy, and I'll send it out to you.

This is a generous offer no doubt. What I am wondering though is if there is a copyright infringement though.

Even if we buy the magazine we have no right to pass an article on for free or otherwise.

That's one reason I didn't ask and that I don't post too much stuff on the web that is someone else's intellectual property.

Maybe this is a "no harm no foul" situation. Just be sure before it gets out of hand!

[shovelwrench]

Smith crazy,
Man that was quick, where'd you find that so fast?

Yeah, thats the same thing my brass does. Hows you primer? My H110 loads just start to flatten a little in the Ruger. Still haven't tried em in the '94. 1800 is impressive, maybe 2000 isn't that ridiculous...

Flat Top had sent me a PM in regards to the sloppy chamber, said he might have a solution, I sent him a reply but haven't heard back yet.

I did see where some guys where short sizing them,leaving the bulge, but I haven't tested it out yet. I wish my reloading room wasn't in town

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally Posted by smith crazy

This is a generous offer no doubt. What I am wondering though is if there is a copyright infringement though.

Even if we buy the magazine we have no right to pass an article on for free or otherwise.

That's one reason I didn't ask and that I don't post too much stuff on the web that is someone else's intellectual property.

Maybe this is a "no harm no foul" situation. Just be sure before it gets out of hand!

That is a good question Skip.

Since the PDF is a direct copy of the article and includes their name and the issue number etc., and that fact that I am in no way taking any credit for any of it, nor am I profiting from it in any way, I believe that I am alright here, especially since they told me on the phone that some of their back issues are now out of print, so I should try to find someone who has one I want, and copy it from them. Add to that, that once I buy the magazine (which I do) it is mine to do with as I please, ( again, short of making a profit) which means that I can let anyone read it that want to, and that is all that I am really doing here.

I will be calling them to inquire about it, so I won't send out any until further notice.

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by shovelwrench

Smith crazy,
Man that was quick, where'd you find that so fast?

Yeah, thats the same thing my brass does. Hows you primer? My H110 loads just start to flatten a little in the Ruger. Still haven't tried em in the '94. 1800 is impressive, maybe 2000 isn't that ridiculous...

Flat Top had sent me a PM in regards to the sloppy chamber, said he might have a solution, I sent him a reply but haven't heard back yet.

I did see where some guys where short sizing them,leaving the bulge, but I haven't tested it out yet. I wish my reloading room wasn't in town

Shovel,
I found this one in an out of the way place. What I really wanted was the 24" octagon model. There were none of them to be found though. Kempf Gun Shop is about an hours drive from here and they specialize in Cowboy Action stuff only they didn't have one in 45Colt. 480Ruger yes, 45Colt no.

The bore was/is pretty rough so I think I am going to have to work on it a bit. Either with jacketed bullets or lapping. That is something I have never done though.

When I got home tonight and cleaned it there was a pretty good lead streak down one groove. Not all of them mind you, just one. The bore is shiny but there are "tool chatter" marks in it. I have done some polishing before but never lapping.

I think I need to use a different powder anyway. The WC820 is fine for short barreled or long barreled with jacketed stuff but isn't all that good for lead, I knew that but was hoping against hope, so to speak.

I have Lil' Gun, Longshot, W296, 2400 and AA#9 for magnum powders. I'll give AA#9 a try, then 2400. Maybe I will use the Elmer load of 20gr and see what happens. Haven't made up my mind yet.

I am impressed with the M92 action. When you "rack the lever" that empty case goes flying with a "twang". Kinda cool!

The rifling twist is pretty fast too. 1:16 in a 20" barrel means that baby rolls over more than once inside the tube! Heavy bullets should work pretty good in it.

Hang on, we'll sail these uncharted waters together!

[shovelwrench]

I might be able to get into town, and my reloading room, Sunday. I do have a bunch of 255gr Lazer-cast over 24gr of h110 I could try before goin in. I haven't seen any signs of leading with that load in my ruger @ 1400fps.

Isn't H110 and 296 the same?

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by shovelwrench

I might be able to get into town, and my reloading room, Sunday. I do have a bunch of 255gr Lazer-cast over 24gr of h110 I could try before goin in. I haven't seen any signs of leading with that load in my ruger @ 1400fps.

Isn't H110 and 296 the same?

Only exactly!

They are like different lots of the same powder. If you are loading by volume and not weight then you may want to reset your powder measure.

Dial up the weight you want and go from there.

[shovelwrench]

OK,
FT says my chambers OK, so I'm at least gonna run some of my Ruger loads through the Winchester tomorrow. Probably won't get to the range with the chrony till at least next weekend.

I am lookin forward to feelin that but in my shoulder bite.....

Have you looked at the XS series of sight for these? Don't know if the Pumas have the same holes, but I sure do like em on mine!!!!

Brownells Search : Rifle Parts : Lever Action Rifle Parts - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools

[Skip Sackett]

I can tell you this, I definitely need something to aid these old eyes! A scope or something! With the M92 action that may be a bit of a problem. I'm going to check into a mount and go from there.

Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check them out too!

[Paul5388]

Skip,

I put a Williams peep (that came off of a Buffalo Classic) on my .45 Colt H&R Carbine, but I had to include a 1/4" riser under the tallest front sight available. I just couldn't get enough adjustment without out it with the original sights or the Williams. The 20" barrel probably wasn't helping the situation either.