I load oversized cast bullets in my handguns...normally .431, .432

I also like the Lee Factory Crimper, and use it with a heavy crimp for my 44 Mags.

The Lee Factory Crimper has a a carbide collet insert in the base of the die, and that insert is used to size the loaded round before the crimp takes place....according to Lee, to allow the loaded cartridge to fit standard sized chambers, and to reduce crushing of the cartridge during the crimping process. The only problem with this collet is the fact that it WILL size down an oversized cast bullet. A buddy of mine reported that his Lee Factory Crimp Die was sizing down the case/oversized cast bullets as much as .002 therefore negating the oversize condition of the bullets and affecting accuracy.

I ground the collet in my die, to allow a .432 seated bullet to "slip fit" the collet. The die collet no longer "sizes" the rounds that I crimp, and it works properly and gives a nice uniform and square crimp, and will not crush the cases during the crimping process regardless of the size of bullets that I am working with.

Grinding the carbide collet by hand is very hard, to impossible, but any good machine shop that has a cylindrical grinder could accomplish this task.

Because of the amount of folks that shoot cast bullets on this forum, I though (that if this has not been mentioned before), that it should be posted for your info.........

That's interesting info. I don't use them myself, but I know a lot of guys here do. I bet they'll appreciate the info too.

Good information, flat.

I just have one question though. Your modified die, what difference does it have over the crimping portion of a regular die now that you modified it?

This is how I do what you explain but without modifying anything. I use two regular Lee seating/crimping dies in my turret and progressive presses. I am blessed with a 5 hole progressive so I don't lose any of it's benefits either.

I screw the stem all the way in on the bullet seating portion or rather to the point that the case comes back to straight then in the next hole I have the same die with the stem almost removed but turned down far enough to give me the crimp I desire.

The over size bullet is not touched and I get a great crimp on the bullet.

If I was doing this in a single stage press it would be cumbersome, but I just pull the handle and the machine does the rest!

Thanks G4F!!!

SC; If I understand your question...The crimping portion of the die is not affected by the modification...only the dimensions of collet (actually, it is a carbide insert) in the base of the die. I studied this as best I could, and I think that the base of the Lee Factory Crimping die needs to center/support the head of the case as the bullet is crimped, to assure a "square" and uniform crimp. When I set the die up in my press, the shell holder is touching the bottom of the die (and thus the case is centered and supported) as the crimp is applied. The "stem" portion of the die not only sets the crimp, but also centers the bullet, so the cartridge is being centered for the crimp at both ends of the cartridge. After I ground the collet to allow a seated .432 cast bullet a slip fit thru....the collet is still snug enough to center/support the case head (if I remember correctly, the tolerance on that was .0002 over the nominal diameter of the case head). I also ran a variety of different sized bullets from .429 through .432, and the crimps were square and uniform regardless of the diameter of the bullets, so, the smaller bullets were not affected by the modification, the crimps were square and uniform, and there was no case crushing.............In the case of my (and my buddies) Lee Factory Crimp dies, the minute the cartridge entered the die there was resistance...it kind of "chunk and clunk" (the sizing effect of the collet on the oversized seated bullet) as it moved upward towards the crimp area of the die. Now, the cartridge enters the die smoothly, the crimp is applied and the cartridge is removed with no resistance from the collet. I hope I have answered your question?..................I dont have a turret or progressive press...really, just never had a need for one. Most of my reloading is purpose driven, and all my rifles, except for my 444 levergun, are loaded with custom made benchrest dies (hand dies). I load the pistol rounds with an old single stage press.

How do you get the oversized cases to chamber in your revolvers unless you have particularily generous chambering?

I've found that while many times rounds that are slightly oversized will fit in Smiths but they will not chamber in a Colt with their tighter tollerances. The Lee FC die makes sure the OD of the case is no greater than maximum SAAMI standard and rounds shouldn't be sized by the the FC die at all unless they're bulged in the loading process.

I have never had issues w/ magnum rounds fitting in any revolver. I find the LFCD counter productive to accuracy w/ lead bullets. One could certainly go the route as FT did, but a properly sized case & a good roll crimp have sufficed for my revolver rounds for years. Same for pistols, a good taper crimp is all that is needed. I think Lee came up w// this little gimick to acount for poor tolerances of their sizing dies. AS always, JMO.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Steve and Fred; I have never had a problem with a cartridge fitting in any of my chambers (like Fred)....and , Fred may be correct about Lee's Factory Crimping Die being indigenous to the Lee line (all my other dies are RCBS). There have been a few times when I have shot cartridges that have not been put through the Lee crimping die, and they fall right into the chambers with the oversized bullets that I use. I have found that the Lee Factory Crimp Die does improve accuracy and ballistic uniformity (chrono) in my pistols and my 444 levergun (although the 444 crimp die is of a different design, and does not have these issues). In spite of the problem I had with this die, I believe that the results of using this type of crimp have proven to work well, and if anyone was experiencing this issue, I was hoping that my post would solve the problem for them.

Exactly, and if I understand the Lee design well enough, and I use them almost exclusively, the 44Mag die has a roll crimp in the seating die that comes with the set. So again, since you modified the collet, virtually taking it out of the procedure, how does that die differ from a regular seating die?

The whole purpose of the LFCD is not to improve the crimp but to size the case after loading to factory ammo spec's. At least, that's how I understand it's purpose. I only use it in one caliber, a LFCD, 45ACP where I have had some problems with brass that was thick, Fiocchi, and bullets that were running in the .453" neighborhood. Those will not chamber in my M625JM, period.

In that firearm, the resizing of the bullet is not an issue as when I can get them to chamber with the LFCD, they are still able to obturate just fine.

There is no one thing fixes all when it comes to firearms, they are all individuals.

I don't have or use factory-crimp dies, but have considered experimenting with one. Thanks. That's good information, and something that could be easily overlooked. I too generally use oversize cast bullets in my .44 Magnums - usually .431".

SC; I have no clue as to what Lee Die's do or how they are made...I only have RCBS Dies. The RCBS dies apply a roll crimp, the Lee Factory Crimp Die applies a taper crimp (truthfully I dont know if that would be the correct term for that crimp...but, I believe thats what Lee calls it. It actually looks more like a swage of the case mouth more than anything else), and that is the crimp I prefer, and that crimp that has given me the best accuracy. Regardless of what its called the Lee Crimp Die applys something other than a roll crimp, and thats the one that works for me. I only shoot 44 Special and 44 Magnum handguns, and that is all I reload for now....so, how the Lee Factory Crimp Die would be set up for other applications is up to the user to decide. I shot 45ACPs in competition for years, and even with that gun I would always put a very slight crimp on the case mouth, but, not enough to upset headspace of course. As far as the universal to all firearms issue that you mention....This Lee crimp has shown an improvement in accuracy in all my Smiths and Rugers, but I would or could not say that it would do so in every handgun out there.....the "odds" are against me in that case!!! Anyway, it was just something that we came across and wanted to share...Take it or leave it, its just another experience shared with the forum.

M29since14; You know, I have a 444 Marlin that uses a very different Lee die to apply a crimp (its a collet die, that does not resize the case...and, has no effect on the diameter of the seated bullet). That die works like a champ, and in the 444 it really shows a great improvement in accuracy, and ballistic uniformity (as judged by the chronograph).....Now, you have me thinking. I wonder if the 444 die could be shortened for use with the 44 Magnum?!?! This would be the ideal set up if it would work! This may be something worth looking at. It would be much easier to shorten the 444 die, than it would be to open up the carbide insert in the base of the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

flat,
I still think you are missing my point.

I crimp everything. Some I use a LFCD some I use the seating/crimp die that comes standard with the pistol set.

I agree that the right crimp is essential for accurate rounds. The modification that you are sharing about is one that I see a place for. Some handguns would really benefit from the bullet being left alone. The point I was trying to make was that some bullets that get resized, still function just fine in that individual firearm. Like my M625JM.

Now if it had big throats or bore things would be different for sure! I would look at something like you have described.

The 444 crimp die is a rifle collet die. It doesn't work like the handgun dies at all.

The crimps that are applied by the LFCD are specific to caliber. A cartridge that is a traditional revolver round gets a Factory Roll Crimp, one that is traditionally a semi-auto cartridge is given a Factory Taper Crimp by the LFCD for that caliber.

Now I understand...I must be delusional this morning! You are correct, some revolvers, especially with light target loads dont even need a crimp to perform well, and some guns just dont like oversized bullets. Most of my loads are midrange to top end, where the crimp really makes the difference, not only in eliminating "jump", but aiding in accuracy and ballistic uniformity...also, all my guns shoot oversized bullets much more accurately, but I can see where the die as it comes from Lee can work in situations other that my own. I will not dispute that.....The 444 is nothing more than a long 44 Mag (in essence), and I dont see why a shortened version of the 444 collet die would not work with the 44 Mag "if" the interior demensions of the 444 die would accept the 44 mag case and perform the same function. I actually like the 444 collet die better than the Lee Factory Crimp die that I am now using for the 44 Mag. It would be worth researching to see how or if it would work out. Right now I am in the middle of another project, so that will have to wait............I am not all that familiar with Lee products. The Lee Factory Crimp die that I have does not put a roll crimp on my 44 mag cases, matter of fact, the crimp looks identical to the crimp that is applied to the 444 cases by the collet die.................Just to clarify, does the regular Lee seating die that comes with a "set", roll or taper crimp? My RCBS seating dies roll crimp, and that crimp is not at all like the crimp that my Lee Factory Crimp Die applies to my 44 Mag cases. I have had all these dies for many years...I wonder if something has changed?

Here are some of the crimps I put on my bullets.
The first one has no real crimp. It is a 38spl with 158gr LSWC and 3.5gr Bullseye. No crimp needed at all. These will shoot 1" groups @ 25 yards all day long.



Same type of round, target, only with roll crimp via normal seating die.



My 44Mag rounds with an H&G #503, Elmer Keith 250gr bullet. This crimp is what comes standard with a Lee 44Mag seating die.



Do these crimps look anything like the ones you get from your dies?
Can you take pictures of your rounds and post them?

SC; I would have to say that both the 44 Mag and the 444 Marlin, Lee Crimp dies that I have produce a crimp that is more similar to the last photo. I cant post on this forum, but, if you email me I will "try" to take a photo: [email protected]

SC! I got some photos of my crimps, and they dont look anything like yours!!!! I thought your last photo was close, but it seems that I was wrong! My cartridges after crimping look like they have a swaged ring or "band" residing in the crimp groove, and both the 444 and the 44 Mag die crimps are exactly alike!

How do you guys know that the Lee FCD is crushing the bullets? I can load a bullet into a case and insert it into the FCD with no resistence until it hits the crimper?


Thanks

Bearcat74; It all depends on the diameter of the bullet. If I load a .429 jacketed (or cast) bullet I would not have the problem, but, some of my handguns need .431 and .432 cast bullets, and thats when the problem starts. The tolerance of the Lee die sizing insert is so critical to the standard dimensions of the the 44 Mag cartridge (in my case), that any bullet over .430 actually gets sized down, which ruins accuracy. You can tell this is happening because you will meet resistance as the cartridge enters the insert in the bottom of the die...and, the larger the bullet diameter the more resistance you will encounter. A buddy of mine told me about it...he had mic'd some cartridges that he had just loaded, and he said after a trip through the Lee Factory Crimp Die, the measurement he took, where the bullet was seated, was reduced by .002 ! So, the bullets he loaded (.432's) were worthless for accuracy in his handgun. I am not saying that the Lee Factory crimper is bad, I am just saying that if you are loading "cast bullets" larger than the "standard", that the Lee die will size them down...then offered a remedy for that issue. Hope this helps.

Flat top, thanks for the explanation. I am shooting .430" so I think I will be ok. I was worried that it would size down .430's.


Thanks again!

Bear; If you dont feel any resistance when the loaded round first enters the die, you are good to go!!!!

I have never use the Lee crimp die on pistols.I do use it on rifle.many are dropping the pistol die.I have never had to resize my loaded rds.I roll crimp all my pistol rds.there was no taper crimp when I started loading,so I never saw reason to change.

I dont need to resize my loaded rounds either, even in my Smith which has tighter chambers than anything else I own. I like the rifle die as well, and it has made a big difference in accuracy in my 444 Marlin. I started with the roll crimp too, but, I like the pistol die, and the performance I got from the crimp, but, went I went to the larger cast bullets it just ruined accuracy. I think the crimp alone is worth keeping the pistol die for, so I just modified the die to suit my needs. At least others have an alternative to dropping the die altogether...

Correct heavy crimp for Lee Factory Crimp for pistol, and Lee collet crimp for rifle dies. I would like to thank Gun 4 Fun for seeing the trouble I was having posting photos on this forum, and taking the time to walk me through the steps. Its nice to know that there is somebody here who cares enough to help out a fellow forum member!!! Thanks G4F!!!!!

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How are you adjusting your dies, flat? To me that is an exorbitant amount of crimp. Just me though. I have gotten by for years with much less and to me that means brass life.

I do like the looks of that bigger 44 case though. Never shot one yet, maybe that will be my next firearm! Same molds, same type of rifle only with real rifle performance!

I could go for that.

Glad to help . I have been following this thread with some interest.

I know the picture thing can be a little frustrating until you get a handle on it, and I was more than a little curious as to what your loaded cases looked like. I am always up for learning something that is new to me.

The big Marlin round, and the .45/70 are both impressive looking rounds, especially when compared to handgun rounds. I have not loaded for the .444, but I have quite a bit of experience with the .45/70 in a couple of different rifles.

Your crimp certainly looks like it'll hold the bullet in place, both from jumping crimp, and from setback, both of which can be very costly in a life or death situation when hunting dangerous animals.

SC; On the Lee crimp. G4F has it right, this type of crimp if applied correctly will stop set back and jump. It will also aid in ballistic uniformity/accuracy. Just about everybody I know who are serious lead shooters, accuracy buffs, and (like G4F mentioned) those that hunt large dangerous game with rifle and handgun, use this type of crimp.

The crimping groove on most cast bullets is about .050 to .060 or so. On most cast bullets, the top part of the groove is a flat/square edge that sits under the nose. The bottom part of the groove is a bevel.

The key to getting the proper heavy crimp is to allow the swage of the crimp at the mouth of the case to sit against the flat/square edge of the crimp groove beneath the nose of the bullet, and then to apply enough pressure to the crimp to allow the lower portion of the crimp to pinch the bevel on the lower side of the crimp groove. You will know when you are there by the pressure that is exerted by your press, and when you see a near vertical swage on the case mouth. (see my previous photos).

What you will end up with is a swaged crimp that is as wide as the crimp groove on the bullet. This is the ideal crimp for this type of die............also, I have used these dies for years, and have cases that I have used for years and many loadings.....well over 20 with one set of 100 cases that I use for 44 Mag testing purposes. I have never had a case mouth crack or any case issues, and, I have never annealed the cases.

I believe I read that you are now working with the 45LC in a handgun? If so, set your dies up to size in this manner and then go to your starting load and work up.......I think you will like the benefits of this type of crimp, especially for the top end loads! Use this crimper die as an extra/seperate step. Seat your bullet in your regular seating die, and allow that die to roll the bell of the case mouth back to its vertical position. Then go on to the Lee Die to apply the final swaged crimp. If you are working with compressed powder charges, allow your regular seating die to apply a light crimp to hold the bullet until the Lee die completes the crimping process.

Here is a photo of my 444 Marlin. I built this rifle 2 years ago. I shortened the barrel to 16.5", and lapped it to a perfect .4305 chamber/.4300 muzzle dimension. I shoot cast .432 sized bullets. I also modified this rifle to take an oversized COL. The standard for the 444 in the Marlin is 2.580. After reworking the cycling spaces (which requires parts modifications/TIG welding, etc), retiming the action and giving everything a precise fitting and polishing. The action is now "butter smooth". This rifle will now take a 2.655 COL. That is an increase in 5 grains of powder, uncompressed! This gives me the power of the 404 Jeffrey/400-450 Nitro Express 3" with like weight bullets. I also bedded and freefloated an MPI Kevlar/Graphite stock and finished it off, added a reworked WWG Happy Trigger and WWG Bearproof Ejector, and a Longhunter one piece firing pin. The rear peep, front post, and scope rail is by XS Systems, the rings are Warne Optima Quick Detachables, and the Scope a Leupold 2.5 Ultralight. This gun weighs 6.2 pounds field ready, and is short and very handy in the thick environment that I hunt in...and best of all it is a "one holer"!!!......The revolver in the photo is my New Model Super Blackhawk that I just finished up on. Birds Head Grip, cocobolo grips, 4" barrel...the works. I carry this in a weak side crossdraw holster that was made for me by Alan at Chisholms Trail Leathers. It is the Ranger Flat Top Crossdraw, and for rifle carry it is ideal...keeps the handgun out of the way of the rifle...carries close and tight to the body, and allows for draw with either hand....This gun is also set up for lead, and shoots one hole groups.

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FT-

could you post some more pictures of your crimps, both before and after? I am curious about this style crimp. I don't see anything wrong with them, but I don't use them either, so maybe I can learn something new here.

Very Good Tip Thank you

Scrapper; I hope this hint comes in handy....

G4F; Your photos: 1. Case belled and bullet ready for seating in the standard seating die. 2. The bullet is seated, and the bell has been reduced to near verticle. 3. The Lee Crimp die (used as a seperate operation) applies a firm crimp to the case mouth. Notice that the crimp is near verticle, and will not allow the bullet to jump or set back, because of the crimps "fit" in the crimp groove of the bullet. This is the "ideal" crimp for this type of die.

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I love the looks of that crimp which is why I'm going to get one for my 460 Mag. I should get one for all the cartridges I load, 454 Casull, 45 Colt, 40 S&W.

Thanks for all the tip as they are greatly appreciated.

FT, what is that blue band, and where did that brass bullet come from?

Scrapper; If you like the looks of the crimp, you will really like its performance!

G4F; PM sent.

Thanks for that info. That is really cool!

I hear that loud and clear I'm sure it help the powder burn much more completely before the bullet cuts loose. I understand the slower burning powders like the crimp.

Scrapper; The powder "will" burn more completely, because the crimp helps charge to charge uniformity. It really shows up on the Chrono (more uniform velocities/lower SD's), less unburnt powder, and on paper...tighter groups! Remember, always back off your favorite load if you are going to change to this type of crimp, and then work back up. In some cases I have found that the load does not change, and in other cases it does, by a bit.....so, it is best to err on the side of caution, especially if you are pursuing maximum performance loads. This crimp is not the end all for absolute accuracy. It is just a part of what needs to be done to achieve those one hole groups, but, myself and others have found by comparison, that this crimp is the best crimp going.

Thanks flatop, I'm going to get a chronograph one day and that's when I'll try changing what I'm loading now (460 S&W Mag with 200 gn Hornady FlexTip Win 296 @ Hornadys minimum recommendation, using WLR).

Right now I don't have a way of checking velocities so as long I hit the target with at least 4-5" groups free hand @ 50 yards with my 8 3/8 460 Mag with open sights I will stay with those loads. I still have to try bench resting and I also have a scope (Bushnell 3200 Elite) to try out. I'm working slow cause I currently have a trouble getting to the range.

Patience is a virtue

Well, I thought I would give this type of crimp a try with my regular Lee dies.

Guess what? It looks just like the one from the modified factory crimp die. So, I ask again, why go to the extra work?

The one on the left is a 45Colt with a H&G #502, 240gr Keith bullet designed for the 45AR, the one on the right is a H&G #503, 250gr Keith (THE Premium Keith bullet) in a 44Mag case.

To note; I have never used this heavy a crimp in any of my handloads. I will have to now to see if there really is any difference in performance. Like I noted above, I don't work the case mouth this much as #1: I had adequate accuracy from my loads, #2: Working the case mouth this much means shortened brass life, period, #3: Once you get to single digit SD what more do you need?

But, just to show I have an open mind, I will try this crimp with some of my loads and see if they improve or not.

Still don't see why I need to grind out a LFCD to get these kinds of crimps. I just never set them this deep before.

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Great pics Skip. Now we know that a "modified FCD" is lurking inside each seating die. All you have to do is turn the die in further. Voila you have a modified FCD and case life reducer in one easy step. Ingenious!!

__________________
too TOO young!!

Scrapper; Good luck!!!

SC; The reason for the modification to my die as stated in the first post, was to keep the Lee Factory Crimp Die sizing insert (in the bottom of the die) from sizing down the over bore sized cast bullets that I shoot in my guns. The "crimp" is a seperate issue. As I said in a previous post, .429, or even .430 bullets did not cause a problem in my die, and I am sure they do not cause a problem in yours. Its when I use bullets that are sized larger than .430 (and all of mine are), that the issue arises. The sizing insert in my die would actually size the larger bullets down as the cartridge entered the die...therefore they would not shoot accurately in my guns, because they were undersized (although they didnt start off that way!). I only offered up this remedy for anyone else who may have been having that problem. An easy way to determine this is to seat the bullet in the case and mic the diameter of the case above the bullet seating depth. Then run the bullet into the Lee Crimp Die, remove, and mic the case in the same spot. There should be no reduction in the measurement............Anyway, your crimps (an entirley different subject), look ideal. If they work for you the same way they work for all of the folks that use the Lee Crimper in this manner, I think that you will be very satisfied with the results. Again, as I stated before, you may need to adjust your loads a bit to gain optimum performance and accuracy after changing to this type of crimp. If you choose to continue useing the crimp, I think that you will find, as I have, that your cases will last just as long with the Lee heavy crimp as they did before.

I have to admit something. At the beginning of this thread I was going to go get a LFCD cause I wanted one of them crimps. I didn't have a way to do the ream job myself and with the economy like it is and all, I didn't want to have to spend the money for a machine shop deal, so now I find out I can have it all with the same old die I have had all along!

And some folks say there ain't no Santa! HA!

See, that's just the point, ft. I have shot 44Mag for years and never needed a crimp like this. I will try it now only because I don't have to go get another die, have it reworked to attempt it. The die I have, and many other reloaders already have, will do that kind of crimp quite nicely at no extra cost.

If it were I that wanted a crimp like this, I would go into it with some very simple, and proven knowledge. Worked brass gets harder. Harder brass does not remain as ductile. When harder brass is forced to work past a certain point it splits.

Now, unless you want to take that quantum leap, like the new technology you proved here with this die thingy, and say that worked brass doesn't become harder, you may want to back off your statement concerning the same. Don't make me produce metallurgical reports to prove this issue.

I shoot bigger bullets in all of my 44Mag firearms, as cast, .433" to .431" and don't use a LFCD. It has been correctly stated by you that the LFCD would resize the bullet in the case without the modification you have done, I heartily agree, no argument there. Good work.

Now I know I can get the same results, ,in the 3 calibers mentioned, without spending the money for a LFCD with my standard Lee crimping/seating die that came with my 3 die set AND have no worries with that die trying to resize ANY of the oversize bullets I enjoy shooting.

To me, that is a win/win. It would be a win/win/win if my brass would last as long and would be a win/win/win/win if it improved performance. The last one will need to be verified, the next to last one........................... I just ain't that gullible to believe it will ever happen.

Jessie,
You crack me up dude!

SC; If the standard Lee seating die applies the crimp, and does not reduce the size of a "fat" bullet...that is good. My post was concerning the seperate Lee Factory Crimping Die. There are many folks that use this die as a seperate step crimp, and do not use any other Lee dies. I do not use Lee dies other than the Lee Factory Crimping Die, and that is what this remedy concerns.....I would guess that anybody that has this issue has a choice...modify the LFCD, or buy a new set of Lee dies to get the factory crimp. As far as the crimp ruining brass, neither I, nor anyone else I know who uses this die has had any problems with that, but, for safety's sake, I do not over extend the use of my cartridge's.............Anyway, keep an open mind....try the crimp, and report your results. It works for many, it should work just as well for you.

Tell; If I only would have known!!!! I bought this die when it first came out, and I dont know how many years ago that was...dont even know if the regular Lee dies could have supplied that same crimp back then, although, I was under the impression that their regular dies did not...but, I may be wrong. Anyway, good for you!!! Many have found this type of crimp to really improve performance and accuracy...but, dont forget to reduce that load a bit and work back up...cant stress that enough.

ft, minds that are too open are usually a sign of something of great value not being up there.

I understand about you not using other Lee dies, they are almost all I have ever used and I've had mine a while.

I do have a LFCD though, 1 cartridge, 45ACP. All of my firearms will work just fine with .452" bullets. When I use too thick of brass, such as Fiocchi, the bullets get sized down to .451". Still fine for the type of loads/alloy used in my firearms.

Your experiences may vary. That is because of the tolerances in things made by man.

As for the cases lasting quite a while, well, that would only mean one thing. They aren't reloaded much. Either they stay loaded a lot or they are tossed after few reloadings.

FWIW

SC; I "try" to be open minded. There is always something to be learned. My daddy used to say that if a day passes, and I havent learned "something", then it has been a day wasted. I try not to waste my days....

Many years ago (almost 50), when I got into shooting/reloading, etc, a fella (who was very old, and very wise) once told me that if I always use Winchester brass in my handguns, and Remington brass in my rifles, that I would never have a problem with brass. I never have questioned what he told me (open mind), and to this day, I still use only those two brands for the purpose....and, I have always had long brass life and no problems!

As far as my shooting habits...most of what I do is experimental, and most of my shooting is done during the winter (I am on the road during the summer working). I dont fire thousands of rounds a year. I was a competitive shooter in National Match Course and Benchrest rifle for most of my life, and I know how to shoot...so, with the range work that I do, mostly on and for guns that I build or work on, getting ready for the hunting seasons, etc, I stay in "practice". I have no reason to shoot anymore than I do. One thing I have learned over the years... its not the amount of shooting that makes one a great shot...you either have it...or you dont......and maybe thats why my brass lasts so long!

So, now if you "have it" not only will you always "have it" but as a side benefit, your brass will last forever?

Of course, you "have it" and have reaped the benefits of that for a long time.

I want to be respectful because if you have been loading for 50 years, you are my senior in age, that is unless you started reloading when you were 3.

But I think you answered the question about brass life. Your shooting habits are much different than most shooters. Surely the 444 nor the 44mag are your benchrest calibers, so what little practice you need to stay at the top of your game isn't done with those calibers, which means you shoot them very little. Now it makes perfect sense.

I load for folks that like to shoot and who hunt a lot. There were 6 rifles afield this this year with ammunition I loaded in 44Mag. If memory serves me, all but two took deer, and one took more than one. The two that didn't take anything didn't see something worth taking.

Some of them get together just to "blast away" with their rifles as they enjoy each other's company, they are mostly related, and like to make things down range move with them.

Not benchrest shooters by any stretch of the imagination and they don't want to be. Just simple folks with simple guns doing simple things and having a ton of fun doing so.

I found this sequence picture that has to deal with seating/crimping that I thought would be helpful.
It is from someone that shoots a lot. He has some really neat articles out too, most of them in Handloader Magazine. It's Brian Pearce.
This is part of his article on setting dies correctly. Notice the bullet type and crimp employed. I found it to be rather interesting.

Attached Images

Brian Pearces 44Mag crimp.jpg (23.3 KB, 166 views)

SC; First you speak of "respect", and then you insinuate that I am "senior".....well, I never!!!!! I will have you know that I am in perfect physical shape, and am still strong and active. I lead a rugged lifestyle, am hard as a rock, and my mind is sharper now than it has ever been! You kids can only hope to be in my shape when you reach my age!

Seriously: You will find that most who have shot competitively have the skills so ingrained, that even after a long layoff from shooting, their proficiency does not falter. I do believe that those on this forum who have been there understand what I am talking about.

As far as brass life...I have never given concern to how long brass lasts. I do keep record of the amount of times that each lot that I have has been loaded. I have one lot of 100 44 mag brass that I have used for heavy bullet (250 to 405), top end loads, and I am getting ready to load that lot up again for testing 405 grain bullets. This will be load # 20. The cases are still in excellent shape, and the crimp that I have shown on this thread has been used on all of those loadings. As I have stated before, I do not anneal cases. I also have one lot of 444 brass that I have used exclusively for my modified COL Marlin 444. All of these loads are at the top end with 300+ grain bullets, and the cases are still in excellent shape after 12 reloadings....I have load #13 ready to go to the range. My other rifles have fitted chambers, so those cartridges will last forever....and have to date! I have some cartridges that I used in my Benchrest rifles that are still as good as the day they were made...after hundreds of firings!!! I have always looked at brass as a "long term" expendable...eventually it will have exceeded its usefulness...then, ya just gotta buy more!

I have taught a number of folks how to reload, but, I have never reloaded for anyone else other than myself....I am just not willing to take on that responsibility....and, it gets more folks into the hobby. I just introduced a fella I work with to reloading, and he loves it. He loads for a 45-70, and 45 ACP. We talk reloading all the time, and of course most everything we talk about is safety oriented.....He uses my three step safety check as he reloads, and he is putting together some very nice and safe rounds to play with. He shot a one hole group at 50 yards with his 45-70 and his own reloads...He was overjoyed to say the least!

The reason I use the crimp I do, is that with the heavier bullet loads (300 and up) in the 44 mag, there have been issues with bullets jumping crimp, and hanging up a cylinder. This crimp eliminates that issue. It has been used by many folks that I know to great success and has become a "standard" for most of us that pursue these types of loads. In the course of testing, it was found that this crimp also improved ballistic uniformity, and accuracy even with lesser loads and bullet weights. I am not saying that everyone should or needs to use this crimp. All I am saying is that I do...others do, and by our shared experiences, this is what we have found. My LFCD is set up for this crimp, it is never changed and I use it on all mid and top end loads that I put together for my 44 mags and 44 Specials. I have found that even lighter loads can benefit from this type of crimp. I dont think that there is a right or wrong crimp...if the crimp one uses works for them, then thats all that matters. Its up to the individual to make that call.

Anyway, before this goes any further, you need to try the crimp, and make the decision for yourself. If it suits your needs, thats great, and if it does not, thats ok too!