I've been looking all over for any loads with this combination. Accurate is saying 6.1-6.8gr behind a 240gr LSWC at 1.600" OAL, and reloadammo.com is saying 6.3-7.0, unknown OAL. My final source is the Lee's Modern Reloading, 2nd Edition, though I'm a little hesitant to trust that data. My other manuals, Speer #14 and Lyman #49 (and the free Alliant loading guide), don't say anything about AA#5 and a 240gr LSWC bullet, but curiously they do have Bullseye, W231/HP-38 and some AA#2 data (fast powders), and 2400, W296/H110, AA#7, and AA#9 data (slow powders). They seem to skip over AA#5 (which is supposed to be in between)...I wonder why.

Does anyone have any personal experience with this combination of AA#5 + 240gr LSWC for .44 Special? Any pet loads?

Maybe I ought to find a can of Unique and give that a try--I seem to find data for that powder for everything from .38 to .357 to .45 and even .44..

Sir, I haven't tried AA#5, so can't help there, but I do like Unique in .44 special and .45 Colt. It's bulky enough that double-charges are immediately apparent, and it shoots cleaner as you approach the top of the data. The only thing I don't like about Unique is that it doesn't meter very well.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

hmm...maybe I can be the test case, then.

I'm looking for a good target load for use in in my 629-5 and accurate enough for Conventional Pistol/Bullseye competitions (because I want to try shooting it with an unconventional pistol...).

I've also heard of a .44 hollow base wadcutter, but I've never seen one...

Val,
From the older Alliant data:

245 (L) RN N100 3.4 661 N100 3.8 752 14,100 1.600" LY429383
S1000 4.0 696 S1000 4.5 791 14,000
No.2 4.2 721 No.2 4.7 819 14,000 Penny’s
No.5 6.1 757 No.5 6.8 860 14,000
No.7 7.8 792 No.7 8.7 900 14,000
No.9 9.7 818 No.9 10.8 930 14,000

250 (L) SWC N100 3.8 679 N100 4.2 772 14,000 1.575" LY429421
S1000 3.9 661 S1000 4.3 751 14,000
No.2 4.5 711 No.2 5.0 808 13,900
No.5 6.3 760 No.5 7.0 864 14,000
No.7 8.1 779 No.7 9.0 885 14,000
No.9 10.4 832 No.9 11.5 946 14,000
5744 11.9 692 5744 12.5 737 12,600

You will have to extrapolate some data because the data doesn't list your exact bullet.

Remember to keep the two powder companies, Alliant and Accurate, separate!

I have used AA#5 in other calibers with good success. Just don't load it down as it will produce squib loads when trying to go below the listed data. Don't ask how I know!

Hmm...if the general rule of thumb says that I need to increase the powder charge as bullets get lighter to maintain pressure, then going 6.3ish as a starting load of AA#5 behind a 240gr LSWC might be the way to go.

I might load up a small batch of that tonight and see how it goes...

I use AA#5 for full-power .38 Special loads (I found the traditional 3.5-4.0gr of fast powders that people were using for Bullseye practice to be unsatisfactory), and I understand that it can be used successfully for .45ACP and lighter .41 Magnum loads, so I think it will probably work well for .44 Special.

FWIW, I've used AA#5 with excellent results in .40 S&W and .38 Special. Its burn rate is pretty close to that of Unique (#5 is a few notches faster), and it has always seemed cleaner than Unique to me. I'd think it might make a dandy powder for .44 Special, although I've settled on my duplication of Skeeter Loads with SR-4756 instead of Unique for all-around use.

SR4756 is a GREAT POWDER!

OH.................. WAIT................................AA#5..........................GOTTA.............................STAY.....................................FOCUSED..............................................SR4756..........................................AA#5..........................................

Hey 38/45 started it!

Case: Remington
Primer: Large Pistol Mag.
Bullet: SWC (L) 240 gr.
Powder. AA #5, weight: 6 .3 gr
THIS IS THE MOST ACCURATE LOAD WITH GOOD BURNING.

Using this load is at your own risk.

I shoot the Model 24-3 6.5 inches and the 696 3 inches.
For the 696 i prefer the following load:

Case: Remington
Primer: Large Pistol Mag.
Bullet: SWC (L) 240 gr.
Powder: Solo 1000, weight: 4.2 gr

Using this load is at your own risk.

Swissman

Well, then, I'll give it a try. At my own risk, of course =)

Thanks.

I have older Accurate data for the 429421.

Start 6.3gr 760 fps
Maximum 7.0gr 864 fps
14000 C.U.P
Cartridge Length 1.575
Test Barrel 7 1/2"

I'm happy to report that I still have all my fingers.

I loaded 50 rounds, 6.3gr AA#5, 240gr Competition Proven LSWC, PMC brass, Remington 2-1/2 primers, 1.485" OAL. Pretty accurate at 50 yards (shots were on-call, shot Bullseye style), and blew out the center at 25 yards. It felt a bit like mid-range .45 ACP LSWCs through my N-frames. Nice; I think I like it!

Thanks, everyone!

I can tell you what I use for PPC with my M629 with a 5" BBL.

4.5gr of Bullseye, 200gr LRNFP (Cowboy Bullet) and a Wolf LPP.

It will shoot the center out of most any target if I do my part!

Feels just like a 200gr LRNFP fired from my 44Mag revolver though!

For practice I use 7.0 grains of AA#5 behind a Keith Style SWS which have been running about 246 grains. I started with 6.5 grains and have seen no noticeable deterioration in accuracy.
For field use I load 8.0 grs, this works fine in my 696-1 and 624-0, no signs of excessive pressure at all. I suspect that accuracy suffers some when compared to 6.5 grs but not to the problem level.
Brian Pearce (Handloader) has done a lot of work on the .44 special at pressures above the current 14000 cup which Accurate uses as their limit.
If I was shooting a Triple Lock I would also keep pressures to this limit (14000) or lower as well, but IMO modern guns designed higher pressures can be approached differently. Please do not consider this information as sufficient to try this load without further research.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Thanks, oldRoger.

I'm quite satisfied with the 6.3gr AA#5 load I tried yesterday; since all I'll be doing with it is punching paper, I don't need the terminal ballistics offered by the higher charges. There weren't any signs of excessive pressure (even though the bullet was seated a bit deeper in the casing than my load data suggested--I seated them to 1.485", while the books said 1.600"), and it burned pretty clean with little left-over propellant residue.

Flatter trajectories between 25 and 50 yards, however, would be nice...and I'd probably look at lighter bullets for this application.

I have to agree with 7 grs. of AA#5 with a 240 SWC. I also load 9.9 grs. of AA#5 for the 210 WW STHP in my 44 Special Ruger. AA#5 is a good powder even if it is a little dirty. Leaves little tan balls, but it cleans up easy and is very accurate. AA# 7 is also a winner IMO. The Speer Bullets Data says: 250 gr. cast bullets sized at 430, 10.6gr=846 fps. and 11.5 grs. = 948 fps. with AA#7. I use 11 grs. for around 900 fps. in my Ruger. With AA#5, Speer says, 8.4 grs. =868 fps. and 9.3 grs. = 936 fps. I use 9 grs. for around 900 fps. These loads fire one hole groups in my Lipeys' 44 Special Ruger with a 4 5/8 barrel. I don't know if they are safe in other guns, but the data came from " The Complete Reloading Manual for the .44 Special". From U.S. Bullet and Powder Makers. The data from Accurate Powders is more conservative and lists 7 grs. as the max. with AA#5 for a 250 gr. 44 SWC. There are no pressure signs with 9 grs. of AA#5 with the 240 SWC at .430 size in my Ruger and is very very accurate. I find that 900 fps. to be optimum for accuracy in my situation. I live at 7000' and am not sure if this as any relevance. The Speer data used a Cimarron Single Action Army with a 5.5 " barrel with a 1-20 twist.. Accurate Powders used a 7 1/2" DOUGLAS Barrel. Like I said, Accurate is very conservative and can understand why with so many different 44 Specials out in service. I don't want to see any body getting hurt, so if you have any doubts about the strength of your revolver, use the Accurate Data.

Running,
One thing about those little tan balls. I have had them lock up a firearm before. This will not happen in yours as you don't have an extracting star. When we fired a bunch of rounds out of a M66 we found out what could happen. Not pretty!

Tipping the gun muzzle up in one hand and working the star with the thumb of the same while the other hand goes for a reload, puts those little brown balls right under the star. Forcibly close the cylinder in that speed reload drill and VIOLA, STUCK CYLINDER!

Couldn't even get it to turn. Now we had a stuck loaded cylinder! I don't want to say what we did to get it open as I am pretty sure it was totally unsafe!

Gotta watch.

I have never used .44 SPL brass in my 629. My impression is that you would be very likely to get the infamous carbon ring in the cylinders, much like the .357 when using .38 SPL brass. That is a situation to be avoided assuming you want to load .44 Mag without really tedious cleaning.
You might get as good or better accuracy switching to .44 Mag brass, although you will have to slightly increase the charge.
In any event if you want a flatter trajectory increase the charge, you will not go over the 14-15000 cup standard for the .44 SPL until you pass 7grs.
You may find it just as accurate with a slightly higher charge.
HBWCs, my uncle used to shoot Bullseye with his .44 SPL, a 1950 Target, I know that he used HBWC bullets, I think of about 220 gr, that was many years ago and I haven’t any notion of where they could be found. I would also be interested in having a few.
Lyman had a SBWC mold for the .44, I suspect not made for many years.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Hmm. The carbon ring doesn't bother me--I shoot .38 Special wadcutters out of one of my 686s all the time...of course, it's also a dedicated Bullseye gun and will shoot only .38 Special wadcutters.

I'm trying to work up a good Bullseye load specifically using .44 Special cases because some Bullseye ranges forbid the use of Magnum loads--their backstops can't take a 240gr slug hitting it at 1400fps, or the concussion would bother other shooters during a match. If I use .44 Magnum cases, I might have to somehow prove that I'm using a .44 Special load. If I use Special cases, then it isn't as likely to be a problem (of course, I could load up a Keith-type load in a Special case, just for the hell of it).

At any rate, I think the suggested 6.3gr AA#5 load worked pretty well; I loaded up another 50 rounds tonight, and I should be able to test them sometime this weekend. I'm going to have to put in an order from one of the commercial casters for some bullets, though. Probably Missouri Bullet Co.: their 185gr .45ACP semi-wadcutters were pretty good with a 4.3gr AA#2 load; I'll bet their 240gr .44 semi-wadcutters will be pretty good, too.

The carbon ring only becomes an issue when you go back to shooting magnum cases from either revolver.

They come out real easy with a fired magnum case though. Soak them down good with bore cleaner, insert a fired magnum case, a little (very little) bell can be placed on it, and insert it into each chamber. Do that until the case inserts easily in each hole, not a big deal.

It has to be done though or your magnum rounds could generate catastrophic pressers the next time you want to wind them up!

Your project sounds like fun, val.
Keep us informed how you do on the range!

Back in the day, there were people who used the .44 SPL in Bullseye instead of the .38 SPL. My Uncle was firmly convinced that his scores were better with a .44, he was a very good shot, and competed regularly until in his seventies.
He used wadcutters, I think hollow based, somewhere out there someone still must produce them (?) with a little Bullseye they are extremely accurate.
I don’t know about your range but one shot should convince the doubters that you are not using magnum loads. You will not have that mighty flash and roar.
Even my 8 gr load is really not very impressive to see.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Hopefully, my local .22 Bullseye league will again allow for-fun centerfire shooting on the last relay in the Spring (we shoot at least four relays of .22, since we have only 15 firing points when all the lanes are working and about 50-60 shooters who show up every week; I'd shoot the .22 for record, and then centerfire for fun). My shooting mentor suggested that I try a head-to-head competition with some of the other guys, .45ACP vs. .44 Special, to see if the .01-cal (really more like .02": .451" vs .429") makes a difference.

I suspect it's more about the person working the gun, rather than the round itself, that makes the difference...

I tried the 6.3gr load again today, and I'm pleased to report that it is still as accurate and precise as on Thursday: shots were on-call at 50 yards. I tried shooting against a turning target at 25 yards...not as pretty, but that has a lot more to do with me than the load. Interestingly, the load seemed to have a bit more recoil than Thursday, even though pretty much everything was the same...but then I was shooting .38 wadcutters before trying out the .44 and those seemed to have more recoil, too. Probably something about me changed, rather than the gun/ammo.

Hmm. I think I'll go load up a batch of 100 more and try it again tomorrow.

My shooting mentor said that among the top shooters, when they go from .22 to .32, their scores will go up simply because the bullet diameter is larger and so has a better chance of breaking into the next higher scoring ring. I'll bet that's probably the same idea between .38 and .44. Though most people now shoot their .45s for both the Centerfire and .45 aggregates, since it means they only need to learn two guns (rather than three).

If I used a .44 Special load in a magnum case, one shot would definitely convince anyone that it's a paper-puncher load, and most officials at the matches (including the ones at ranges that I've shot at that have the no-magnums rule) don't check the ammo anyways (except for the Distinguished Revolver matches), so it probably wouldn't be an issue if I used a magnum case.

Hmm... Penn Bullets sells a .44 Wadcutter, 185gr, DEBB. I think I might've hit paydirt! Ain't a HBWC, but it'll probably do the job...

I had an Ideal 180 gr .44 wadcutter mold l that I never could get decent results with. Maybe it was just the weight, but it never produced groups as good as I got with a 240 gr HP SWC.

Yeah...that wadcutter looks to be a little short, like one end will hit the cylinder throat just as the other end leaves the case when fired in a .44 Special case in a .44 Magnum chamber. I wonder if I used a .44 Magnum case and some case-filling powder like Trail Boss with that bullet if it would work...

There's at least one way to find out!

I have speculated that the length of the hollow base bullets made for a more stable bullet. Swaged dead soft they also obdurate easily which got us to the 2.7 grs Bullseye in .38s.
Certainly the 180 gr .44 bullet is a stubby looking thing and may be under the optimum, although it seems to be very popular in the 45 ACP where it really looks peculiar to me..
The .44 SPL bullets in general and wadcutters particularly, had very good reputation for stability in cross winds. And of course it does not hurt that the dia is larger.
As for powder there is always Red Dot.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

The length, certainly, to get past the jump in the chamber, as well as lots of bearing surface in contact with the rifling. The soft lead + hollow base obturates well in the barrel. Then there's the mass distribution--the head makes for a nose-heavy bullet, giving it better stabilization (it would stabilize like a nose-heavy badminton shuttlecock, as well as from the spin stabilization from the rifling).

Currently, I have Bullseye, AA#2, and W231 as my 'fast' powders, then AA#5 as my 'medium' powder, and 2400 as my 'slow' powder (slow for handguns, anyways). I wanted to pick up a can of Unique at the last gun show, but it was all gone by the time I got there. Maybe next time.

i use 7.5 gr of unique, but thats what works for me and my 624, you should realy try unique i bet you will like it, its my most used powder in 357, 44 spec, 44 mag, 44 colt

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

One thing I've noticed is that my .44 Special hollowpoint loads are more accurate than the solid versions. Maybe it's the 10 grains or so of alloy the HP loses, or maybe it's the shift on the bullet's center of gravity.

OK guys find us some .430” 200-220 gr swaged wadcutters somewhere; we'll take a step back in history.
I would guess that the Bullseye might be the answer, if you have a HB and soft bullet the theory is get it moving and obturate quickly.
At the speed you want, I suppose 700-800 you will not need much. Dependent of course on the case and seating depth.
I know that lots of people experimented with seating depth in K 38s by no means was it a given that your pistol was most accurate with a deeply seated bullet.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

valkyriekl,

I really like it, that you like the AA#5 load. Here is another combination for shorter barrels.

Accurate-Arms got a nice choice of powders. I personally like the faster powders more and the results are in most of the case good or better.
It burns cleaner and better and it needs less powder per round so its more economic. Honestly, who really needs a fullpower load for targetshooting at 25 or 50 yards?
A to standard-velocity loaded round is enough for me. I don't hunt with handguns, this is strictly forbidden in Switzerland.



Swissman

I have a .44 Group Buy 200 gr dbl ended W/C and it shoots very well with 4.0 grs of Red Dot. 5.0 grs will give you just under 900 fps and would make a good self defense load in a light revolver. Order out a few of those Penn bullets and try them. If they work, you'll be "good to go". I shoot it in my 624's and my Ruger .44 Lipsey Special. Nice light recoil and full size holes in the targets.

You might want to ask on the Cast Boolit forum if anyone has a Group Buy mould they want to get rid of (if you want to cast your own).

FWIW
Dale53

don't give up on AA#5...
It is, by far, the most accurate (no pun) load for the .44 special that I have ever loaded (since 1975). Recently ran out of #5 and used Unique as a substitute, but accuracy was lost.
For target use (competition bullseye), use a 215gr. bullet. 7.6gr #5, Fed large pistol primer.
I fact, i prefer #5 to most powders in .38, .380, .44 special, .45 Colt.

For serious bullseye, use #2 or VV310 as replacements for Bullseye.
Terry

For my .38 wadcutter loads, I use either 2.7gr Alliant Bullseye, 2.8gr AA#2, or 3.1gr W231 under a flush-seated hollow-base wadcutter. I haven't tried VV310, but I've heard good things about it.

For my 'full power' .44 Special and .38 Special loads, however, I'm liking AA#5 (6.3gr in .44, 5.8gr in .38).

I just loaded up a new mini-batch tonight: Bayou Bullets was so kind as to send me a sample of their 240gr lead semi-wadcutter bullets (I suppose it's a "Keith-style" bullet), so I dropped my normal charge of 6.3gr AA#5 and seated the bullets in the crimping groove (though I may have used too much crimp for my .44 specials):


Shown here next to my earlier loads (6.3gr AA#5 behind a Competition Proven 240gr LSWC):


I'll have a chance to test them out tomorrow evening. Should be fun!

I was surprised that I got such a good morning at the range.
I go to sleep very late Saturday night, but it doesn't affect my
skills. The results with the Model 19 were in the 45 - 48. After
150 shots of .44 Special and .357 Mag. I got enough.

Here's the highlight of the day, that I've shot after some sighters and the first five-shot-serie.
Conclusion: "THE .44 Spec. LOAD" is good for long barreled guns.

Very nice! I conclude that you wouldn’t want the swissman shooting at you!

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

I was going to suggest some things, but folks have already got it handled very well. My loads are a little hotter than you would normally use for your Bullseye work. I just might try out some of your AA5 loads myself.
Sonny

I'm coming in here a little late but this is a great thread. I just purchased a 6.5" 24-3 and am doing some homework on working up some good loads when I get possession in a couple of weeks. (Takes 2 weeks in Hawaii to go through the bureaucracy). This has been very helpful. Does anyone out there have experience with 231 in a 44 special load? I've had very good accuracy (like others in this thread) with 3.1 gr of 231 in a 148 gr wadcutter. Was wondering if it works equally well in a 44 special. I have some #5 on hand and will definitely try the 6.3 grains with my 240 gr SWC Rainier bullets. mahalo

My Speer #14 manual suggests using 5.2gr - 5.7gr of W231 behind a 240gr LSWC bullet for 701fps - 796fps in .44 Special. My Lyman #49 manual doesn't have anything about that specific bullet type, but from the data given for other similar bullets/weights, I'd say that's pretty close. I might whip up a batch of this to see how it hits.