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  #1  
Old 12-22-2009, 11:01 PM
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Default Herc 2400 V.S. Alliant 2400

I started reloading about a year ago, and I am just now starting on magnum loads. I purchased a can of 2400.

I now noticed my manual shows the load I was wanting to start with as herc 2400. Is herc 2400 and alliant 2400 the same powder?

Thanks in advance for any help.
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:09 PM
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I think, and the key word here is think, that they are the same powder, but I seem to remember a thread on some forum that said some loading data has been changed with some of the powders that are manufactured by new companies. To be safe, I would try and browse a newer loading manual, or preferebly buy one, and compare the loads in the newer manual with the loads in your older one. It is cheap insurance to make sure you don't have a mishap.
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2009, 11:22 PM
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They are indeed the same powder. I have been using it for years, and when the switch from Hercules to Alliant took place, I found no more difference in performance than you get from lot to lot.

Last edited by Gun 4 Fun; 12-22-2009 at 11:51 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-22-2009, 11:45 PM
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Alliant bought Hercules and continued to operate most of their facilities. I never noticed any change in 2400.
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:17 AM
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Different ownership.....same product.
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  #6  
Old 12-23-2009, 06:11 AM
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2400 is THE original magnum handgun powder and is the standard others are judged against. There are many, many more powders for magnum loads today and some of them are outstanding, none though are really better than 2400. Good choice.

The only real difference in 2400 from then until now are just like any other powder, no more than lot to lot. That is the reason some of us harp on working loads back up when you change any one component. Make sure you do the same when starting out, start low and work up.

Oh, yaah, have fun too!
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  #7  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:04 AM
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One of my favorite powders, been using it for 30 years. The old Herc 2400 required magnum primers, the new Alliant 2400 doesn't. Something may have changed. Use a current reloading book.
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  #8  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:11 AM
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Not to worry, there has been much written about 2400 and the change of ownership, all agree the powder remained the same.
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  #9  
Old 12-23-2009, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fla_Sun View Post
One of my favorite powders, been using it for 30 years. The old Herc 2400 required magnum primers, the new Alliant 2400 doesn't. Something may have changed. Use a current reloading book.
Don't mean to nitpick but this needs to be corrected for those who might be misled by this.2400 never "required"a magnum primer.It was common for a number of loading manuals to recommend magnum primers with it due to it's being considered a slow powder but it was never required.The powder has not changed.
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  #10  
Old 12-23-2009, 07:58 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canoe on the yukon View Post
Don't mean to nitpick but this needs to be corrected for those who might be misled by this.2400 never "required"a magnum primer.It was common for a number of loading manuals to recommend magnum primers with it due to it's being considered a slow powder but it was never required.The powder has not changed.
Canoe is right. Elmer, Skeeter and others have proven long ago that you don't HAVE to use a magnum primer for 2400.

That was long before every Tom, Dick and Harry (Skip) had a chronograph. When I used 2400 in cold weather and standard primers in large caliber handgun cases, I wasn't too impressed with the numbers across the chronograph. I thought I would try, Winchester Large Pistol primers and Wolf Magnum Large Pistol primers and see what happened.

I backed off my load about .5gr and went to the range. Near the same temperatures, 30*F or so, and tried again. Exactly what I thought would happen happened. My ES and SD numbers changed dramatically. They came down to the low double digits and stayed there.

So, to be technically correct, 2400 doesn't need magnum primers. For those of us that are a little OCD and watch the numbers on our chronograph WAY TOO CLOSELY using them may help!

If you do use them, make sure you back off any previously worked up loads.
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  #11  
Old 12-24-2009, 09:17 AM
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The Alliant website alliantpowders.com has a "reloaders guide" go there!....... 2400 is an excellent powder for magnum loads, and although I have experimented with other magnum powders, I just kept coming back to 2400. It is now my "standard" 44 Mag powder, and I can find no reason at this time to use anything else. I still have a large supply of the old Herc 2400, and with it, in my 44 mags, I have always used magnum primers. Some powders are affected by variations in temperature, but I have always found 2400 to be very predictable/stable, even in near zero degree shooting conditions. It is a great powder with a proven track record and I dont think that you could ask for more!
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  #12  
Old 12-24-2009, 12:24 PM
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One side comment. I know I use small pistol magnums on 2400 with the 357 magnum mainly because I have a lot of magnum primers right now and small pistols are hard to come buy (bad pun I know) right now.

Once I burn up the magnum small pistol primers, I will switch back to small pistol primers.
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  #13  
Old 12-24-2009, 12:42 PM
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And about 2400 & Win Large Primers; I use them because I assume they were hotter than everyone elses non-magnum large pistol, but milder than Magnum primers- because its labeled both std & mag loads. It seems to work just perfect for a milder 44 mag load of 16gr/2400 with a 240gr lead swc, but haven't used that load in less than 50 degree weather.

I'd be interested to know how they work in colder weather (like 20's or lower)
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:43 PM
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In my original tests, and I have got to do a better job of record keeping, the Federal Large Pistol Primers I used showed abysmal chronograph results with 2400. I went to Wolf Large Pistol primers with the exact same charge weight and has similarly poor results.

They were accurate enough but the numbers just seemed exceptionally wide. I went to the Winchester Large Pistol and the numbers closed right up. Then I used the same load with the Wolf Large Pistol Magnum ones and had the exact same results as the Winchesters.

I can't remember anyone ever saying they had a squib with a reduced 2400 load and I know I have never had one.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:37 PM
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I have always used CCI mag primers, but, a buddy of mine told me to try Winchesters...he likes them. The CCI have always worked well for me!..........One thing for sure, I have noticed BIG differences in uniformity by using Federal Benchrest Primers in rifle loads. I have a number of cartons of CCI and the Federals, and will probably just continue with them, but the point is well made that something as simple as a change in primer can alter the ballistic uniformity of a load.
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  #16  
Old 12-24-2009, 04:04 PM
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Thanks to all for the great information.

I am using Modern Reloading by Richard Lee 2nd Edition, I am not sure but I think it is recent. Thanks again and Merry Christmas. Dave.
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  #17  
Old 12-24-2009, 04:37 PM
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The old Herc 2400 required magnum primers
Should have said listed instead of required.
Speer #10 lists magnum primers used for 2400 loads. Speer #14 doesn't, go figure. My current reloading supplier says magnum primers not needed for any magnum powder but I always went by the book and still do.
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:58 PM
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Fla_sun-

The maker of 2400, Alliant, doesn't recommend the use of magnum primers for 2400. I doesn't matter to me if anyone uses magnum primers or not, but they are not needed, and I have proven that to myself with my Oehler chrono many times over the last couple of decades. I'll take a load that is accurate, over close SD's and ES's everytime, as long as the SD's and ES's are not way out of line. I know that accuracy generaly comes with those factors being closer together, but not always.

Uniformity in SD's and ES's are as much a part of the dynamics of a particular gun/load combo that are used, as they are in which primer you use. I can fire the exact same load out of two or three of my guns that are exactly the same model/caliber, and get entirely different results in ES's and SD's. There are just too many variables from gun to gun, to declare any one set of components to be best, and that includes which primer to use. Since the manufacturer of 2400 doesn't recommend them, I listen to them. They have fired more rounds of different calibers, and from more different models than any of us could possibly hope to do in a lifetime, so their opinion matters.
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Old 12-24-2009, 07:19 PM
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I have no particular aversion to using magnum primers in 2400.The old rule never changes.....whenever any component is changed,reduce the load a bit and then work back up.

According to Speer,testing has shown that pressures go up disproportionately in relation to the velocity increase when magnum primers are used with it.Many years ago,I used the mag primers with 2400 because that's what several(including Speer)recommended.After I switched to standard primers with it,I saw no difference in results although I didn't have access to a chronograph then.

About cold weather use.......2400 was the only pistol powder I used when living in Alaska.It got pretty nippy and I never had any problems with it.
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:28 PM
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I have tried magnum primers with 2400 and did not get better results. In some cases the SD's and ES's were actually larger. Never did I experience better accuracy when using them. I also noticed more leading with some loads.

I'll stick with standard primers from now on when using 2400.

As to the difference between Alliant 2400 and Hercules 2400; the only difference is the label. In my use of both brands of this fine powder I have never found the difference to be more than the normal lot to lot variation we experience with powders from the same manufacturer. Which is usually very small indeed.
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  #21  
Old 12-24-2009, 11:03 PM
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Jessie,
What kind of standard primers where you using? I haven't used but a handful of CCI and none of them with 2400.

I have a theory as to why I got better results with magnum primers. My loads were less than full powder. I hadn't gotten to the place where 2400 was working optimally, generating enough pressure on it's own to "play nice".

Maybe not, just kinda thinking out loud here. What do you think?
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Jessie,
What kind of standard primers where you using? I haven't used but a handful of CCI and none of them with 2400.

I have a theory as to why I got better results with magnum primers. My loads were less than full powder. I hadn't gotten to the place where 2400 was working optimally, generating enough pressure on it's own to "play nice".

Maybe not, just kinda thinking out loud here. What do you think?
Skip I used CCI and Federal for those loads. They were full power loads.

I suppose that was what made the difference. With lesser loads with this powder I can understand your results. Of course there are many other variables that might enter the picture too.
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:06 AM
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I have only been using 2400 since 2004. I completely ignored it for close to 40 years, but that one can convinced me to get a 4# can!

I don't think I have ever used a magnum primer with it, regardless of caliber being loaded. I normally use CCI, but I have also used Remington and Winchester.

I normally don't worry about SD or ES, since handgun cartridges in a rifle will usually let me know what is accurate at a particular range and what isn't.

I shot this 25 yard target with a .357 Handi rifle and it isn't good results, unless you consider the 3.5 gr of Bullseye "target load" to be good. The .357 load with 2400 might be usable, but would need to be checked at 100 yards.



A good set of numbers might also produce this kind of results, if all factors aren't relatively close between a rifle and a handgun.



The keyholes are out of a different .357 Handi rifle, but it was the same loads as the non-keyholes out of a handgun. The bullets were Laser Cast and they were just too small and too hard for the rifle, especially with a micro groove barrel.
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  #24  
Old 12-25-2009, 10:04 AM
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Year 1979, mister reloader buys some Herc 2400 and a then current Speer #10 manual. There is an asterisk that indicates magnum primers were used with the listed 2400 loads. Mr reloader uses magnum primers as indicated and all goes well.

Year 2008, mister reloader finishes his last blue and silver can of Herc 2400 and buys a bottle of Alliant 2400 and the now current Speer #14 manual. The manual lists standard primers for all 2400 loads. Mr reloader doesn't question the change and uses standard primers and all goes well.
...That is the simplest I can explain.

Now, it is very obvious that 2400 powder has not changed but the reloading data has, can you answer that?
Thanks...
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:19 PM
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This may be a topic for a whole nuther thread..........
I did a little research on "primers", and found that there are three classes of primers...A, B, C.

Class A primers are used for light charges of/or fast burning powder in rifles and pistols. (These are considered "standard primers" in both types of firearms).

Class B primers are used for medium burning powders in rifles. (These primers have a slight increase in burn time and briscance over the "standard primers")

Class C primers are used for heavy charges of slow burning powders in rifles and pistols. (these are termed Magnum primers in both types of firearms).

As we all know, primers have specific rifle and pistol designations, and are numbered as such. The interesting part of what I had found was that the pressure difference produced from Class A to Class C primers is 12%... If you are working at max charge and using a Class A primer (a "standard primer"), and change to a Class C primer (a magnum primer), you would get a 12 % pressure increase with that load providing all other things remained the same!!!

Some other interesting facts. Magnum primers are a better choice for sub-zero climate temperatures, and Benchrest or Competition quality primers "are" a better choice for extreme accuracy because of the high quality control of their manufacture, but as we all know there are many other variables in the accuracy equation.

Now, back to the topic at hand....2400 powder primer selection: Because of where 2400 sits on the powder burn rate chart...a bit below 296/110 and the even slower 4227....which would make 2400 an upper medium burning rate powder (in pistols), I would surmise that a standard primer would suffice....as would a magnum primer. 2400 seems to be at the tipping point were either/or could be used with good results. Because most of my load development/hunting is done in colder weather the choice for me would be the magnum primer, which I have always used.

This is just some basic info I wanted to share, and it seems that 2400 is perfectly suited for standard primers under normal shooting conditions.

As G4F had stated, there are many variables to consider when it comes to ballistic uniformity and accuracy, and the primer only plays a small part in that. I would caution only one thing here. The primer you use when starting load development, is the primer you should stay with until your tests have been completed. If you feel that a change of primer is necessary, be it from one class to another, or, from one brand to another reduce your charge (remember that 12%?), and work back up to maximum charge. SAFETY FIRST!!!!...................Merry Christmas everyone!!! FT
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fla_Sun View Post

Year 1979, mister reloader buys some Herc 2400 and a then current Speer #10 manual. There is an asterisk that indicates magnum primers were used with the listed 2400 loads. Mr reloader uses magnum primers as indicated and all goes well.

Year 2008, mister reloader finishes his last blue and silver can of Herc 2400 and buys a bottle of Alliant 2400 and the now current Speer #14 manual. The manual lists standard primers for all 2400 loads. Mr reloader doesn't question the change and uses standard primers and all goes well.
...That is the simplest I can explain.

Now, it is very obvious that 2400 powder has not changed but the reloading data has, can you answer that?
Thanks...
#1: It is no secret that data has been changing downward for a considerable amount of years. It is possible that "trend" is hitting this fine powder as well.

#2: Lawyers.

#3: Preference. "I want to do things just like Skeeter & Elmer & Sharpe &..................... (What usually follows this line of thinking is: "If you don't follow them you are wrong!" )

In this climate of component availability I think that may dictate what gets used in some folk's loads. I personally don't see the harm in that with one caveat, knowledge. If I have a full bore charge and switch to a different primer, what should I do?

Work the load up from minimum again. It is the safest advice.

I too am a newcomer to 2400, being only on my second pound. For magnum loads previously I used two powders. AA#9, which never needs a magnum primer & a MILSURP powder WC820 which loads like H110/W296 and always gets them.

Recently, and this is a serious thread drift, I started using H110/W296 with 45Colt and 44Mag loads, with good results. Magnum primers all around.
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:21 PM
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Thumbs up merry Christmas all...

I appreciate the great replies. Lots to be learned here.

Now I'll be looking at my boxes of primers to see what type they are. My guess A is regular and B is bench rest.

BTW, I like H110 too. Maybe has a little more performance potential than 2400. How about a new thread? I have some H110 to use up.
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:32 PM
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I still use 2400 for my standard 44 Mag loads...with240/250 grain bullets @ 1250...it always has been a performer. When I load the heavyweights (300 grains +), in my 44 Mags, at "top end" velocities, I find that 296 is my powder of choice, but, for midrange velocity loads with the heavyweights I have found again that 2400 does an excellent job. Like some have stated here..."the powder for the purpose". In all my 44 Mag loads be it midrange or top end (I do not shoot light loads), I also use Magnum Primers exclusively, but only because of the climate conditions I hunt under. I try to work up all my hunting loads at 30 to 35 degrees or so. This gives me a good temperature range for those loads to work within, and I have never had any inconsistancies with those loads from the mid 60's down to sub zero condtions.
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:56 PM
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I began reloading over 40 years ago and soon afterwards,started reloading the 44 magnum.Per Keith's recommendations,I used 2400 from the get-go.Around 1970,or so,I read a piece written by Lee Jurras who stated that H110 was slightly better(pressure/velocity ratio)than 2400.For those that don't know,Jurras owned and ran "Super Vel",an ammo company (now gone under).He had at his disposal,a complete ballistic lab which Keith did not.I bought and used up a couple of cans of H110 and was pleased with it's performance.

In that time period,almost no one except for ammo and ammo component companies had a chronograph and so case extraction,primer condition,etc was relied on in conjunction with load manuals.

I owned and used three 44 magnum revolvers in those days.For full loads,I worked up to max with all 3 while using both 2400 and H110.I won't give any of the load data numbers here.It might cause some forum readers to have a seizure.The loads that I used and that were given the nod of approval by the manuals that were then current showed no signs of excess pressure in either of my revolvers.In that time period,I also used magnum primers with 2400.

As time passed,most manuals began a trend of toning things down.At present,much of the data available is quite mild compared to the data back then.

Most ballistic lab data shows H110/W296 to be slightly better than 2400 for full powered magnum revolver loads.(just as Jurras said it was).Redu ced loads have nothing to do with this.

I keep 2400 on hand and I will continue to use it however I also use H110/W296 and much prefer it for full powered loads.For the 44 magnum, bullets in the 240 grain range driven to the 1400fps range,H110/W296 is slightly better but 2400 is not far behind.However,better is better.For bullets heavier than the 240-250 weight range,W296/H110 are far ahead when using full loads.

Since I seldom use bullets much heavier than 250 grains in that caliber,I could quite cheerfully use 2400 exclusively.It all depends.As others have noted,2400 is more agreeable when reducing loads down to 240 grains at around 1200 fps or so.W296/H110 is not so agreeable with that.(which is of no concern to someone sticking with full power)
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Old 12-25-2009, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canoe on the yukon View Post
I began reloading over 40 years ago and soon afterwards,started reloading the 44 magnum.Per Keith's recommendations,I used 2400 from the get-go.Around 1970,or so,I read a piece written by Lee Jurras who stated that H110 was slightly better(pressure/velocity ratio)than 2400.For those that don't know,Jurras owned and ran "Super Vel",an ammo company (now gone under).He had at his disposal,a complete ballistic lab which Keith did not.I bought and used up a couple of cans of H110 and was pleased with it's performance.

In that time period,almost no one except for ammo and ammo component companies had a chronograph and so case extraction,primer condition,etc was relied on in conjunction with load manuals.

I owned and used three 44 magnum revolvers in those days.For full loads,I worked up to max with all 3 while using both 2400 and H110.I won't give any of the load data numbers here.It might cause some forum readers to have a seizure.The loads that I used and that were given the nod of approval by the manuals that were then current showed no signs of excess pressure in either of my revolvers.In that time period,I also used magnum primers with 2400.

As time passed,most manuals began a trend of toning things down.At present,much of the data available is quite mild compared to the data back then.

Most ballistic lab data shows H110/W296 to be slightly better than 2400 for full powered magnum revolver loads.(just as Jurras said it was).Redu ced loads have nothing to do with this.

I keep 2400 on hand and I will continue to use it however I also use H110/W296 and much prefer it for full powered loads.For the 44 magnum, bullets in the 240 grain range driven to the 1400fps range,H110/W296 is slightly better but 2400 is not far behind.However,better is better.For bullets heavier than the 240-250 weight range,W296/H110 are far ahead when using full loads.

Since I seldom use bullets much heavier than 250 grains in that caliber,I could quite cheerfully use 2400 exclusively.It all depends.As others have noted,2400 is more agreeable when reducing loads down to 240 grains at around 1200 fps or so.W296/H110 is not so agreeable with that.(which is of no concern to someone sticking with full power)
Amen, and right on!

Merry Christmas canoe.
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:28 AM
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Tim,

Thank you and Merry Christmas to you as well.

ray
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Old 12-26-2009, 02:34 AM
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Back in the "old days", the manuals were pretty specific about H110 not being quite as good as other powders in loads up to a certain bullet weight. With the old Speer 225 gr HP in .44 Mag, H110 was an also ran that used more powder to accomplish what lesser amounts of other powders would do.

However, when you got to the 240 gr Speer, things changed somewhat, but an equal amount of 2400 was still faster than H110 (both with mag primers).

The Lyman 49th Edition lists pressures for it's loads and H110 isn't necessarily the lowest pressure for a given heavy bullet, like a 300 gr .44 Mag.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:12 AM
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I've heard of problems when using reduced loads or not using magnum primers with H110. Any expert comments on that?
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:14 AM
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Very interesting and informative thread. Thanks to all contributors.
I use WLP exclusively. I have some CCI and other stuff sitting around in ammo boxes that I would use if I ever ran out of WLP. Which I won't.
It has been surmised, by one awfully good retired gunsmith over in a different forum, that WLP is maybe 15% hotter than standard primers and 10% below magnum primers. I have seen some comparison photos of various standard primers going off, and the difference is remarkable. Same with mag primers. However, using the same moment of exposure may not be optimum for ignition comparison with all primer manufacturers, given different burning curves. Video would be a better indicator. And, primer burning curves affect the ignition efficiency of powders as well.
I had one 250gr cast bullet stuck in the forcing cone by primer force only, in hot Florida weather. The H110 was a large wad of unburned powder stuck to the base of the bullet. And I have read of others with the exact problem. Also, within the same time period, I was having a problem with jumping the crimp, by 0.030"-0.040" in a "light" Colt SAA New Frontier .45 Colt and 273 gr hard-cast.
How much crimp-jump does it take to reduce the pressure enough to cause H110 ignition failure? And then stick the problem of primer variability on top of that???
Perhaps a topic for another day...I need more coffee.
Hope all you guys had a good Christmas.
Sonny
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:16 AM
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Paul; You are correct, but, with the heavy weight bullets, from 300 grains on up, H110/W296 produces high velocities, but NOT the highest pressures to obtain velocities in that range. There are other powders that can top out the pressure chart, and only obtain the velocities of H110/W296, and the remainder of the powders produce sub-par velocities at lower pressures and maximum loads. The 44 Mag is rated at 36,000 psi, or 40,000 CUP. Even in my Redhawk I dont need to exceed the SAAMI standard (although some do with no ill results, but, when you get to those levels, the amount of gain for the amount of extra powder charge is so negligable, that I see no profit in doing so, ) to achieve top end performance with the heavyweight bullets, and W296 can give me that performance and still be within the SAAMI specs at max loading. As I said in a previous post, it is my "opinion" that its the "gun", not the load you run through it, that makes the difference. Choose the gun for the purpose (some are stronger than others.....Smith Tech says that a 300 grian bullet at 1000 fps is the max weight bullet/velocity that should be run through a Smith...The Redhawk, Dan Wessons, can handle the heavyweights at the max), maintain the SAAMI specs with your loads, and use powders that are suitable for the bullet weight that you are pushing, and you will have excellent performance at reasonable top end pressures, and, the most bang for the buck.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:25 AM
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Fla Sun; Any slow burning powder will not give the desired results with reduced charges. Thats why the manufacturers have a "starting load" for any given bullet weight and powder. I always use mag primers with W296 (a slow burner), and have never had any problems using that powder for heavy bullets at top end loadings....but, that is all I use that powder for.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:57 AM
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I'd like to make a few comments. I'm not attacking anyone. I'd just like to place in the public view some of my conclusions over the years. Way back, like in the 1960s and 1970s, I worried about the concept of working up loads. Of course I had better access to places to shoot then. But from my fathers teachings, I always started low, spent the time looking at my brass and my targets.

But what happened was my virgin brass and once fired stuff became a motley crew of items with different numbers of firings. Worse, the old advice of start over anytime you change a component was becoming a real pain.

So I took a different course. I couldn't understand why I should change a component. All I needed to do was invest a little in a long term supply of bullets, primers and powder. Note I don't consider reusing the same brass a change (it probably is because using the same .30-06 case for the tenth time isn't the same as the first or second use.)

Those with severe financial restraints probably can't do things my way. but buying primers and then not using them for other applications was pretty easy (when you could take your pick of primers.) Even powders that are only commonly seen in small cans can buy several at a time. Just check the lot numbers as you pick up 3 or 4 of them. Same for bullets. Just buy in bulk. Its actually cheaper. Much cheaper than buying 100 bullets and then expending 30 of them in load development each cycle. Just buy 300 or a thousand!

If you find experimenting to be fun, go for it. I don't really enjoy covering the same ground multiple times economical or fun. its just a waste. So I take the approach I need to buy in quantity.
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:10 PM
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rburg; Same here. Many years ago I bought in quanity. I shoot only a few calibers, and really dont intend to own any more. My loads are pretty well developed, standardized and loaded for the guns I have, and the guns that I need loads for are very few...two if I am not mistaken, but the powders and primers for those two have been in the loading cabinet for years. On very rare occasion, I will buy cast bullets, but, I also buy in a quantity that will last me the rest of my life. I also still have all my casting equipment, and tons of lead, wheel weight, tin, etc,, so, I can cast up what I need if sources dry up. I still have around 500, 250 Keiths that are weighed, sized and lubed and ready to go if the need arises. I cast them up years ago...... Other than hunting, and occasionally working up a load, I really dont shoot that much, so, what I have will last forever. If folks can afford to do that, "right now" is always the best time to do so, because, I dont think that anything is going to be cheaper in the future. One thing for sure, I am darn glad I bought all this stuff years ago...cause the prices have really skyrocketed...especially within the last year or so.

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Old 12-26-2009, 09:05 PM
canoe on the yukon canoe on the yukon is offline
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It may be somewhat of a thread drift but the thread has become almost as much about H110 as 2400 and so I'd like to make a comment about it.

It's hard to miss the fact that some people choose any opportunity possible to so some H110 bashing.It's often,subtile and often,not so subtle.

H110 and W296 are NOT suited for reduced loads....period.It's not supposed to be and never was.If someone chooses to use it thusly anyway,the problem can be located by looking in the mirror rather than the powder can.

If someone wants a more versatile powder,they should avoid it and stick to something "versatile".H110/W296 is not versatile and it's not supposed to be.If one chooses to use a different powder,they should,by all means, do so.

Examples of bad performance when someone has "misused" H110 seem to pop up continuously.The solution is very simple....Don't misuse it.I've used H110 and W296 for years and have had exactly ZERO problems with it.So have thousands of others.Do we have the "magic touch"?Maybe it's because we follow instructions.When a hand is on the press handle,there is supposed to be a brain behind it.

Making an issue of a few grains less powder to acheive an X velocity has always seemed to be a pointless point to me unless large volumes of target ammo,etc are being discussed and in this case,it's not.It seems to be just another slippery way for someone to inject a snide comment about something.

Much of the powder's reputation is tarnished because someone has heard "negative comments"made about it.You should consider the source of those comments.I have and I'll continue to use it.
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:25 PM
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I personally love both H-110, and 2400.

H-110 will do things in magnum rounds, especially the larger cased rounds, like the .454, .475 Linebaugh etc., that 2400 simply can't.

I get sick of all the comments about it being a flame thrower too. I have never had that problem, and I have fired more pounds of H-110/296 through more different guns, than any other powder, period. In fact, I have never read any other comments about it being a flame thrower, on any other board. It will give a muzzle flash off, but so will almost any other powder under the right conditions (or the wrong ones, if the load isn't correct for the bullet/cartridge combo). I get flash regularly with Unique and 231 on the indoor range. There is an excellent article in either one of my issues of Handloader, or Rifle on that subject. It was written by John Barsness.


I have never used it for reduced loads, nor have I ever tried to. I use it for what it was designed for, and in the amounts shown in the loading manuals, and by authors with good reputations, and have always been completely happy with it.


OP- Please excuse the drift.
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:48 PM
canoe on the yukon canoe on the yukon is offline
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Tim,

We're in complete agreement.The endless tirade of H110/W296 bashing is not only shallow,but infantile.
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Canoe,
The "endless tirade"? I have to admit I haven't seen that here. I remember a thread not too long ago where forum member nitesite posted some pictures of flash from several loads through his revolvers. Some were short barreled and some weren't. If I remember correctly there were other folks that posted in those threads too and they showed some really bright flash pictures from loads with H110/W296.

I know that there are folks, and I used to be one of them, that shied away from H110/W296 from short barrels. I just don't like muzzle flash. Then I started developing loads for my carbine rifles in both 44Mag and 357Mag. I found H110/W296 to be wonderful in those applications. Am I going to use it to load self defense ammo for my 1 7/8" snubby? No. Why? Muzzle flash and extreme amounts at that.

Saying that doesn't mean it is worse than xxx powder, it's just given as information to those that would use it to load such. 2400, SR4756 and a ton of other powders will produce flash as well. Recognizing it's full attributes isn't meant as a slam, just information.

If someone would say that it doesn't produce some spectacular flashes, light shows, or even flame thrower effects, they have either read too many magazines, stayed on an Internet forum too much or just plain hasn't shot as much as claimed.

End of the story, H110/W296 will produce a bunch of flash and especially if shot in short barreled revolvers. This information has been written about for decades. Slower powders produce greater velocity even in shorter barrels AND they also produce greater muzzle flash.



To ignore this knowledge is not only infantile but is downright ignorant.
(And no, I'm not referring to any comments you have made.)

Last edited by Skip Sackett; 12-26-2009 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:43 PM
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??? What are you two guys talking about? I haven't noticed any H110 bashing on this thread, just some good comments as what not to do with it. Light crimps, low charges, standard primers, etc. Not everyone knows the nature of H110/W296. It is best to earn from others mistakes. One of my favorite loads has H110 with a heavy hard cast bullet. Definitely not a "wimp" load! And I must have missed the "flame thrower" comments in this thread. I thought Blue Dot had that title. Whats with the sensitivity? Never mind I don't want to know, end of looking at this thread for me.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:46 PM
canoe on the yukon canoe on the yukon is offline
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Skip,

My comment was not a personal dig at you.It was a general observation.If you claim that there has not been a lot of bashing of this powder on the site,you're not being genuine.Only a couple of digs on this thread but on the forum in particular,it's been obvious.

Yes,W296 produces muzzle flash.I have not said that it doesn't.If you don't want to use it then don't use it....period.

My biggest gripe is for those who are constantly criticizing it for not being appropriate for downloading.If you want to download....choose another powder....period.The petty digs are often accompanied by volumes of mis-information which doesn't help.

If your comments about a lack of experience were aimed at me,perhaps you might re-think that.I doubt if you'd want your background compared to mine.

About your gun rag and internet comments....those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:00 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Canoe,
NONE, let me say that again, NONE of my comments about magazines or Internet were aimed at you.

Not throwing stones at all.

I whole-heartedly agree with your assessments of H110/W296. Folks have mentioned that you cannot reduce loads with that powder but, I have never felt it is bashing. Just me though. Folks have mentioned it and I acknowledge that. Never been a complaint of mine though. It's designed for a purpose, use it in those parameters and it works superbly.

As a matter of fact, concerning H110/W296, I am going to be loading some 357Mag loads with it very shortly to use hunting for my wife's Marlin 1894.

I have the highest regards for your experience and as a matter of fact, have rethought using H110/W296 partly because of your comments. *See added comments at the bottom of post.

Notice in the image I posted from the Speer #8 that H110 is not mentioned as a short barreled powder. 2400 is AND it is mentioned in the heading that major flash was reported using it.

No bashing here about the flash aspect either. It is just something to consider for the reloader. That is my only point.

Sorry for ruffling your feathers! Not intended.

Just to set the record straight, I usually post chronograph results weekly from some load that I have developed/concocted!
(Small disclaimer: Since we have been in the middle of a snow storm it has fallen to once every two or three weeks! )

* Another BIG factor in deciding on H110/W296 had nothing to do with dissatisfaction with another powder. I had a 40 minute phone conversation with John Linebaugh about the 45 Colt (Ruger only loads) and the 44Mag in a carbine. He made mention of the fact the he greatly prefers H110/W296 in all of his handgun loads because of the slower "push" type of recoil. Now, I'm no brain surgeon as many of you forum members have noticed when studying my sentence structure, but I am smart enough to recognize an expert and when to take subtle suggestions as they are given! I have been loading some really strong stuff in the 45Colt lately and running it through my Puma rifle as well as my new Ruger Blackhawk 45 caliber convertible. So, to give credit where credit is due, I felt remiss not mentioning Mr. Linebaugh's name when speaking about a new use for H110/W296.

Last edited by Skip Sackett; 12-27-2009 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Added some reasons to start using H110/W296
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:19 AM
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If muzzle flash bothers some of you folks, may I suggest that you try shooting on bright sunny days...it works wonders!!!
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:56 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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You mean like this one shot in broad daylite?



The original poster of the picture stated that it was shot from a 22Jet with H110 in an 8 3/8" barrel and he had no need to wait until dark!
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:11 AM
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Skip,

I did not mean to seem hostile.Perhaps it came across that way but it was unintended on my part.

The flash issue was not something I brought up.It is obviously more important to some than others.Recoil is obviously very important to some (it must be-it's constantly talked about).Within limits,I simply ignore it.

Your post was addressed to me personally and so I took your remarks to be directed at me.I don't want to get into a flaming match with anyone on the forum.Actually,I usually enjoy your posts.

It was not even particualarly you that I thought about when I made my comments.It was a generalization.The whining and belly-aching from those who want target loads and therefore condemn this powder ad nauseum because it's not suited for that are the one's I was referring to.Such was getting evident in this thread but not nearly as strongly as on some of the threads.It's a subject of great annoyance to someone who uses it properly and gets the predictable excellent results.

My comments were not aimed at anyone directly.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:14 AM
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The jet is famous for fireballs, regardless of what powder is being used, if they are at least appropriate for the round. That picture sure looks like an indoor range to me. There are what looks like fluorescent lights overhead.

My .475 uses fairly large charges of H-110, and I have never had a fireball from it. I use it in my .45 Colt Redhawk, and Blackhawk, and even in my M-25's with no trouble as far as excessive flash, and not in my .44's or .41 either. I get just as big a lightshow from 2400 as I do H-110, which is to say, not much.

All powders flash as I said in my last post. You can take video and crop pictures from the moment of ignition, but most of the time the flash is too short lived to be detectable in real time. We have watched this on numerous hunting programs on TV lately. Mostly from big double rifles over in Africa. We don't see the flash when the scene is being played in real time, but when they play back the shot in slow motion, the flash is quite noticable.




The smaller the caliber, the more it seems to show up when using this powder from what I have observed.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:26 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canoe on the yukon View Post
Skip,

Actually,I usually enjoy your posts.
Well, that comment is better than some I've heard!

I'm right there with powder selection too. If you want target rounds, use a powder that is geared to that venue/genre.

If you want magnum loads, get one that is geared to that type of performance as well.

There is an overabundance of powders to choose from. Find one that will work in your application.

That is why I don't use H110/W296 for my PPC load in the 44Mag. I shoot a 200gr LRNFP over a load of Bullseye for that.

They all have their purposes, I have found that they all will perform as designed when used in their respective proper criteria.

Have a good evening folks!
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