HODGDON, HP-38 is supposed to be identical but cleaner than Winchester 231.

I see .38 Spcl. load data for 158 gr lead is the same for HP-38 & W-231.

Anyone using HP-38 in place of W-231?
Any comments on use?

Thanks - J.Solo

I don't now about cleaner, but I do know they one and the same.

I bought a bottle of HP-38 a month or so back because it is the same powder as W231- just different packaging. I'm still working on the last of my W231 so I haven't opened it yet. I'll use it to substitute for W231 in my 38 Special and 9x18 Mak loads but I'll back off to the minimum charge and work up again on a couple of loads just to be on the safe side.

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Andy

W-231 and Hodgdon HP-38 is one and the same. According to an article in GUNS magazine and the maker , St.Marks Powder Co.. Formerly owned by Winchester , now owned by ATK , more commonly known to reloaders as Alliant!

Lot to lot differences are all you are going to experience with these and the other powders that are exactly the same.

I have used HP-38 in 38spl with great results. Just don't try to download it or you will be dissatisfied with the results. It is a mid to lower upper range powder. I have had a couple of squibs when trying to go as low as I could behind a 158gr LSWC. It wasn't the powder's fault as I was trying to go low enough to get those results. I'm not sure you can have this problem with Bullseye but you sure can with HP-38/W231.

It is a great all around powder and can be used in a wide variety of calibers for the kind of shooting 99% of us do anyway. Midrange target rounds.

4.5 of 231 and a cast 158 gr swc is pretty much my standard load.

HP-38 is all I use for my .38 loads. What I also like about it is the way it meters the same every time in my RCBS.

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You'll shoot your eye out kid

I use 231 & HP-38 interchangably and almost exculsively in .38 special.

3.0 grains with 148 HBWC
3.3 grains with 148 DEWC
4.2 grains with 158 LSWC & LRN

I'm happy with the results in a wide & diverse range of S&W and Colt .38 special revolvers.

For years I used W-231 for .38 Spl, but then I learned that they are the same, and since HP-38 is cheaper and seems to be more available, I have switched over to it. No difference that I can tell.

HP-38 and W231 are exactly the same powders, one can't be cleaner than the other. Just look at the back of both bottles, they are now both made in the same plant. I buy the one that's the cheapest and call it good...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I have also used hp 38 interchangeably with w231.

By having the two powders to choose, it assures better availability.

jed

I have probably loaded more rounds with W-231 / HP-38 than any other powder.

.38 special cowboy loads get 3.5 grs. under a 158 gr. LRNFP.

.38 special everyday loads for range work get 4.0grs. under LSWCs

I just loaded up some 147 gr. LWCHB heads with the 4.0 grs. and will test them for accuracy this week.

I also use it for the .45ACP. A 230gr. FMJ over 5.0-5.2 grs. makes a nice target load. I've loaded thousands of these over the years.

The only downside to this powder is that it does not take up a lot of space in the case, and you need to be especially careful that you don't load a double charge. A double charge will fit in the case, and will turn your gun into a hand grenade!


WG840

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Freedom above all else.

I use HP-38 for most handgun calibers. Even though it is the same powder as ww 231, I find that in my area, HP-38 is a little expensive ($2- $3 ) than ww 231.

Where I live it's the other way around. W231 is more expensive than HP-38 most of the time. That's why I said above, "I buy the one that's the cheapest and call it good." I see you do the same...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I live in Illinois about 100 miles from the Winchester plant in Alton. W231 is always cheaper in the shops around here; however, if I mail order it, I noticed that now, HP-38 is ALWAYS cheaper. I think it has to do with Hodgdon now being the distributor of Winchester powders. (They - Hodgdon - are making sure the Win. powder is a couple bucks per 8-lb keg more than their branded-version of the same powder, is what it looks like to me... Wonder how Winchester feels about that arrangement?)

Anyway, it's all the same SMP-231 powder designed and made in Florida. Sometimes you can find "surplus" SMP-231 powder at a good price. I haven't seen any in about 10 years, but I had a keg of it once. I use W231/HP-38 for probably 90% of my handgun loading, including 380, 9mmP, 38, 357Mag, 10mm, 45ACP, 44 Russian, 44 Spl., and 44 Magnum.

It's bad points are smokiness (especially with lead bullets using soft lube) and dirtiness (not too bad really, but worse than the powders whose claim to fame in these modern times is "clean-burning"). The great parts about 231 is that it flows in measures VERY well, and it is an amazingly flexible powder. Here's my basic loads:

380 Auto x 105gr LRN + 3.0grs W231/HP38 = 800 fps (roughly - haven't chronoed that yet)
9mmP x 135gr LRN + 4.4grs W231/HP38 = 1100 fps (depending on barrel length)
38 Spl. x 158gr LSWC + 4.4grs W231/HP38 = 800 fps (again, depending on bbl.)
357 Mag. x 158gr LSWC + 5.6grs W231/HP38 = 1000 fps (light load for a 357)
10mm Auto x 175gr LTC + 5.6grs W231/HP38 = 1100 fps
45 ACP x 230gr LRN + 5.6grs W231/HP38 = 870 fps
45 ACP x 200gr LSWC + 4.4grs W231/HP38 = 700 fps (target load)
44 Russian x 205gr LRNFP + 4.4grs W231/HP38 = 725 fps (depending on bbl.)
44 Spl. x 225gr LRNFP + 5.6grs W231/HP38 = 775 fps
44 Mag. x 250gr LSWC(Keith) + 7.5grs W231/HP38 = 950 fps

As you can see, HP38/W231/SMP231 is quite a universal powder, and it flows well, and is very economical. Out of 10 loads in 9 calibers, 8 of them use one of two weight settings. This allows me to keep two powder measures basically permanently set up for these two standard loads and move them from tool-head to tool-head.

I noticed someone said that they believed St. Mark's Powder is owned by ATK / Alliant. As far as I know, St. Mark's Powder was sold by Winchester to General Dynamics, and is still owned by General Dynamics. The connection here is that St. Mark's makes the propellant for rockets as well as gunpowder, and Gen. Dynamics is of course an aerospace giant... Here's a branch of their website which shows that the new 100V powder is definitely a St. Mark's product: GD-OTS Propulsion Solutions

I have been told that at the Zero factory in Cullman, Al they have barrels of powder marked W231/HP38 People there said it is the same powder.

I've taken to loading HP38 the last 18 months as W231 hasn't been readily available locally.

It seems to work fine in my 38/357/45ACP loads, although there is more of a smoky residue on the exterior of the gun than such as Tite Group and Trail Boss.

I'm not particularly fond of HP38 but don't have any specific complaint either. I do prefer it over such as Unique.

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

The first powder I ever used for reloading .38s was HP38. Use 231 nowadays because it's usually more available in my area. From what I've heard, they are the same now and as before, either one works fine.

From Hodgdon's own site:

"In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchester® Ammunition announced that Winchester® branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon. Winchester smokeless propellants, the choice of loading professionals, are available to the handloader to duplicate the factory performance of loads from handgun to rifle and shotgun."

I use a lot of WW231/HP38 in 38 Special and .45 ACP. In .45 ACP, using 230 grain FMJ or Rainier plated bullets, I've found it tends to burn a little dirty at loads below 5.4 grains. Once you hit 5.4 to 5.5 grains it seems to suddenly clean-up. I think the slightly higher pressure causes complete combustion. My normal load is 5.7 grains of WW231/HP38 with the 230 grain FMJ or Rainier plated bullets.

I haven't noticed the dirty burning tendencies in .38 Special. I don't load it down very far, however, because I found I could stick a bullet in the barrel at will in cold weather using 158 grain Rainier bullets (they have a higher coefficient of friction than a lubricated cast lead bullet) and 4.2 grains of WW231/HP38. In cold weather on the draw the powder was tossed to the front of the case causing poor ignition and the bullets would stick in my 5-inch M627. I've started using 4.5 to 4.7 grains of WW231/HP38 with 158 grain Rainier bullets. A bullet won't stick in the barrel no matter what the conditions with that load level, but they kick a bit hard in my 2-inch S&W M642. They are within the suggested load levels of my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, and the Jacketed bullet data of my Speer #11 manual.

By the way, I have absolutely NO FAITH in the load data for 38 Special in the Speer #12 or #13 manuals! They don't even have data for 158 grain jacketed bullets for the .38 Special in those manuals! They evidently want us to suddenly believe that after all these years the .38 Special is incapable of handling 158 grain jacketed bullets! Using that line of thought, maybe we should all refuse to buy any ATK manufactured 38 Special ammunition with jacketed bullets that weigh more than 140 grains!

I have no problems at all with lubricated cast lead 158 grain bullets and 4.2 grains of WW231/HP38. It is my standard light load. It is very pleasant to shoot, and very accurate.

I agree there's no reason not to shoot 158gr bullets in the .38 Special, after all, that was the original bullet weight used in it's development. I'm guessing the lawyers had a big hand in this. since they forced the load data to become so anemic they are also scared the anemic data will cause a squib with a 158gr bullet.

My favorite loads for the .38 Special are:
3.2gr W231 under a 148gr DEWC
3.5gr W231 under a 148gr DEWC
4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC

For the .45 Auto I charge 5.5gr W231 under any 230gr bullet, lead of jacketed.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

HP-38 is a great powder for .38 Sp and others too.

I've used the 3.2gr load on 148gr WC for more years than I can remember. It is also a pleasant plinking load for the swaged 158gr SWC that leaves little or no leading.

I've found that 7.2gr under a 240gr SWC is a great 'cowboy' style load in a .44Mag case. Clocks at about 900 from a 6" 629, with very mild recoil. Would be great in a mountain gun. (Where's my checkbook?)

I'm just now switching from 231 to HP38 (I'm out & HP38 is $5/lb cheaper here) I'm starting with starting loads for the HBWC. It looks like it'll be a good load.
Frank

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US RIDE FOR THE BRAND OR LEAVE

I am new to reloading but I reloaded about 100 rounds of 9mm ammo with HP 38 and it worked fine but I just tried 5 rounds for my 38 special using a Lee chart that said to use 3.2 grains and I fired a couple of rounds into the ground and it was like a toy cap gun. I'm not sure what I did wrong. I noticed you were using 4.4 grains. My gun is a 38 Special +P so there should be room for some error. I am using a Lee scoop to measure. The chart said to use the 3cc scoop. The next bigger scoop was the one I used for 9mm. It is a 5cc scoop.

Thanks,
Larry

I've got a lot of it . How is it when used for reduced loads in .44 mag ?

Don't go by the scoop recommendations. It sounds like you aren't using a scale. If that's the case, get a scale before proceeding.

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Minimize the variables

This is another 4 year old thread!

Don't go by the dipper chart, you must weigh the amount from the dipper and must scoop or dip in the correct way.

Scoop and use a flat edge like a business card and scrape off the top. Then weigh on a good scale what that equals. You may have to use a smaller or larger dipper to get the WEIGHT you want.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Larry, welcome to the forum. You would have been better off starting your own thread instead of bringing back a 4 year old thread.

Like said above, never use a scoop without verifying the weight of the powder it scoops. As you see that leads to bad loads. If the rounds were as light as you say you are lucky you didn't shoot a squib.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

This is [I]not[I] a 4 year old thread for me and there will always be new people on forums like this. That is the purpose of a forum. Experienced people helping new people. I expect to pay back the forum by helping others as I gain experience.

By the way the gun I am now using for carry is a S&W 38 Special +P Airweight that has been through the S&W Performance Center where they do a trigger job and whatever else they do plus put cherry grips on it. I'm very happy with it.

Thanks for the info,
Larry

Granted, did not mean to come across rude, it is just that the HP38/W 231 debate has gone on for a long time and the issue has been beat to death!

As Arch mentioned your question on dippers or scoops could be a new thread started by you without all the previous posts on the HP 38 debate.

The LEE chart is only a estimate at the time they tested the dippers. Your batch of HP38 will weigh a different amount then mine. Some powders are very close to the chart others are so far off it's dangerous.
I started with the dippers, even made my own custom ones from filed down brass and a wire handle (still have them) They are actually very accurate if scooped as I mentioned above, but you must weigh the powder. Volume and weight are not the same thing.

Anyway, yes we are here to help and ask away! I also meant to type GOOD scale and not Food scale,

Welcome to the forum

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Still Running Against the Wind

Glad you cleared that up, I was wondering what kind of diet you were on that you had a food scale that was calibrated in grains.

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Minimize the variables

i'm new to the forum and glad this thread got bumped. it's all new information to me. thanks

I ordered a scale on eBay today.
Thanks for all the help.
Larry

Old threads never die they just stay dormant until they are needed again

I went to a reload shop a couple of days ago and they sold me 158 grain bullets and said that was the most popular bullet they sell for target shooting with a 38 special.

Thanks for all the good info. Sorry I'm so late but I have had my knees replaced and a spinal chord injury and I have let those little things interfere with my other interests, like shooting, loading and golf. I'm slowly getting back though.

By the way I now have a single stage Lee kit with a good scale and most things I need. I am using 4 grains of HP-38 in my 9mm and 3.1 grains in my 38 special and for now that works for me.
My carry ammo in both guns in Hornady hollow points.
I don't trust my ability to reload carry ammo yet and besides, I hope I never need to reload it.

An all-grain diet?

(I'll take mine with extra gluten, please. :roll eyes: )