An update for those of you that showed interest in this project. I received the next batch of 405 grain .432's for testing in the 44 Mag. I will get them loaded up this week and as soon as the temps here warm up into the 30's (a heat wave compared to what we have been experiencing), I will get out to the range and continue testing. Here is a comparison photo with "lesser" bullets. From right to left: 240, 250, 300, 325, and the 405.

Attached Images

405.jpg (69.3 KB, 223 views)

That 405 looks really close (just a little longer) to the LBT Cast Performance 360gn WFNGC I'm gonna be trying out for my 460 S&W.

When I weighed these bullets a-lot of them weighed 355gn.

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

Scrapper; I would be interested in your results....and, dont forget the penetration tests...an important step in the process!

Is that three crimp grooves? And if so, which are you going to be using?

Jelly; It depends on the gun (cylinder lenght) that you shoot the 405 from. For my Redhawk (the test gun) I use the second from the top....for a Super Blackhawk, or a Smith I would crimp between (this is where a Lee Factory Crimp Die comes in handy) the top and second crimp groove....seating the bullet to sit about .050 behind the front of the cylinder face. Because of the length of the bullet you want to get as much of that bullet out of the case (to make room for more powder, and proportionately lower pressures) as you can, but, you do not want the bullet to sit flush with the forward face of the cylinder. The set back of .050 keeps the hot flash gap gases from melting a portion of the nose of the bullets in adjacent cylinders, and thus affecting accuracy.

If you crimp between the grooves, won't you have bullets jumping the crimp with recoil?
Sonny

Sonny; The bullets will not jump crimp "if" you use the Lee Crimp Die, and crimp the way I do (heavy crimp as pictured in other posts). The Lee Crimp Die will actually create its own crimp groove on the bullet, and not distort the driving band when doing so. This is why I like the Lee Crimp Die so much...it is a very versatile tool for those of us that work outside of normal or standard reloading procedures.

Well, I had the 405 grain 44 Mag bullet loads out to the range, and working up from the minimum charge this is the best group/load that was shot that day. I really didnt think that this heavy, long bullet would do this well in the Redhawk given that the twist is a bit shy for a bullet of this weight and lenght. But, being "open minded" I decided to pursue this excersize at the insistance of a friend. I shot at 20 yards (measured) which is perfect for my old eyes (cant hit what ya cant see). Most of the groups ranged from 1" to 2" depending on the charge weight, but as I came up with the charge I worked into this fine group. Velocity was 1020, and that is ballpark to where we need this bullet to perform. So, reloading and experimentation does have its surprises, and sometimes they are good! The maximum measurement of the group (I threw in the flier cause I am an honest guy), was about .750, and the cluster measured about .500, so, this would equate to one ragged hole at 25 yards, and well under 2" at 50 yards. The testing will continue as time permits with this load, but, I wanted to share this with you.

Attached Images

	405 Target 1020 1.jpg (54.6 KB, 96 views)
	405 Target 1020 2.jpg (32.5 KB, 117 views)

That's interesting, and I think you guys are on to something cool here. It can be hard to get guys to abandon their old beliefs about what is useful and what isn't, but when it comes to penetration with acceptable recoil levels, a 400 grain class bullet moving at 1,000 fps + is going to penetrate well, while not kicking you out from under your beanie. The Redhawk will take much stouter loads than these, but these should still work quite well in any decent M-29 in sound shape if someone chooses to use them. After all, they are a specialty item and not for every day shooting, but perfect for deep penetration on large game at close range.

Still, I bet you'll hear from the nay sayers.

Excellent job FT

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

G4F; Our goal is to produce a bullet/load combination, that will as you say, penetrate well at close range, yet, allow for controllable double action followup shots....a last ditch dangerous game load for a backup revolver. Any revolver that is capable of throwing this 405 grain pill at 1000 fps should be able to get the job done, but, there is still much work to do. Now that I have an accurate load at the intended velocity, the next step will be a trajectory plot. This load needs to be able to produce a reasonable trajectory out to 50 yards or so. Comparing it to lighter heavy weights (300 and 325 grain bullets), this 405 load looks like it will be within sight adjustment for most revolvers, and if the trajectory remains reasonably flat in comparison, this load will show much promise. Keep in mind that in tests with this heavyweight, others in our group have found that with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps, that the 405 is still traveling at well over 900 fps at 50 yards, so, we are hopeful that it will carry good velocity/trajectory beyond that, but our goal is close range self defense. I hope to accomplish the plot this coming weekend. If all works out, then the rapid fire double action controllability tests will come next, followed by penetration tests in media that replicates the structure and mass of large game animals. When all is said and done, we will make a final decision as to whether this bullet/load is up to the job, and meets the goals that our group has set, and if so, we will share the load data here so others with a need for this type of load will have access to the information............As far as "naysayers".........I would encourage anyone who can bring forth concrete physical evidence as to why this load would be unsuitable for the intended purpose to do so. Our small group has done this before, and with well over 200 years of combined experience we feel that we have covered all the bases....enough to make a verifyable decision as to whether this bullet and load will serve the purpose it was intended for.

Thanks Scrapper! We are giving it an honest shot.....stay tuned, there is more to come.

Looks like you may be successful in all the aspects you have in mind for this load. I know you still have more tests to run but with what I saw there in your photos it looks real promising.

I'm still wondering what these large lead pills (360 gn WLNGC) are going to do out my 460 with the "gain twist" 1 in 20". I'm patient tho I may be going out to shoot in a few weeks.

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

FT,
where could I get my hands on some of those things? I would like to conduct some tests using the M-29 platform. I have several of them of varying barrel lengths to try them in, and at that velocity level I believe that I can still be well under SAAMI spec pressures for the .44. I have plenty of referrence sources on heavy for caliber bullets to cross referrence/extrapolate from.

Scrapper; We will wring the daylights out of this load to insure that it does everything to meet our goals. If it does not, we will share that info as well. Over the years, I have come to realize that failing at something does have its plus side....its all a learning experience whether you win or lose. We appreciate your support, and keep us posted on your tests with those 360's!!! Big bullets are a "blast", arent they?!?!? LOL!

G4F; PM sent!

We sent the 405 through some water jugs last weekend to do a comparison test with a known penetrator....the 45-70, 425 grain bullet at 1850 fps. This bullet has consistantly penetrated 9 one gallon water jugs, and is captured by the ninth jug. We shot the 405 at 1020 fps out of the 44 mag Redhawk into 9 water filled jugs, and it not only penetrated the jugs, but continued another 30 yards down range and buried itself in the backstop. More "true to life" penetration testing will be in the near future. We also did a trajectory plot to see if the trajectory would be suitable for the intended purpose. With a zero at 25 yards....from the muzzle to 50 yards all bullets will hit within a tad over 2 3/4"...at 65 yards the bullet hit about 6" high, so this bullet is carrying a lot of momentum downrange, but, for the intended purpose of a close up backup load for the big bears, this trajectory is more than suitable, and, would even do well as a hunting load within standard handgun range. Also, there was some doubt about the 405 stabilizing at these velocities in a 1-20 twist barrel. The targets have shown no indication of that, and the bullet flies straight and true, with no evidence of upset. More to come.....

Attached Images

	405jugs1.jpg (92.6 KB, 47 views)
	405jugs2.jpg (128.4 KB, 48 views)
	TP405.jpg (88.9 KB, 51 views)

Nice report FT. Thanks and I bet your having a-lot of fun too. I know I would.

We used to soak news paper bundles out in the rain and then stack them up about 5-6 ft deep to do our penetration and mushrooming test. A friend of mine did a test with 3 feet wet papers @25yds with the 454 Casull and he said it blew a whole in the papers about 10" in diameter and he never found the bullet. lol

P.S. I'm not sure of the actual numbers on the test he did but I do know he was impressed and the boy knows how to shoot and hunt. He (in his mid 60's) goes by himself to Maine and always brings big deer home. Just this year he brought 2 Nice sized Bucks home...Dang he is good and an inspiration to me as I learned how to do a-lot about wrenching, hunting, fishing and morals.

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

Cool! Keep posting on this Flat Top. I know there are several of us here who are interested in this project, and what you find out. This may not be a load for everyone, but some of us actually may be able to use this info to our advantage sometime.

I have used the wet newsprint medium for years, and it is very consistant in terms of results. It may not be exactly like flesh and bone, but we have actually used animal bones taked from our game that we have taked in the field, and placed them in between layers of wet print, and it works quite well. I have used this for every caliber I have owned from .22LR up to .416 Remington. I haven't tried my .458 Lott in it for some reason even though I have had it for 20 years, but I already know what the results will be. This method is very useful in dertermining what one bullet vs. another will do in near game tissue conditions. It takes about 2 1/2-3' of wet newsprint to stop most any centerfire bullet that is of the expanding variety. 4-5' will stop most all handgun bullets. There are some exceptions to this though, and they are the .475, .500 Linebaugh's, and most likely the .460, and .500 S&W's with hardcast bullets. These will very nearly always penetrate through 4 1/2-5' of wet print and keep on going.

Scrapper; From what I have been told by folks who have actually taken the large bears, moose, etc, is that the use of bone, thoroughly soaked newspaper, denim, etc, makes about the closest "test media" to the real thing. One of my buddies who had hunted Alaska for years, and had actually been involved in numerous brown bear hunts, attacks, etc, and had also taken some good sized moose, gave me his recipe for a penetration box...I am going to use that to test this 405. Regardless of "comparisons" the 405 load must stand on its own, and penetrate sufficiently to get the job done. The nice thing about this load is the ease and speed of followup shots...something that has always been an issue with full bore 44 mag loads...and, I am sure is an issue with other large magnums. Again, the key here is having enough power to penetrate to the central nervous system/brain, but still allow the shooter those fast follow up shots. Also, one of the guys that has been working on this with us, is heading to Alaska this fall, and he hopes to do some testing on the real thing....Linebaugh Seminars have proven that it doesnt take monster loads to get the job done, so, we have high hopes for this "balanced" combination. More shall be revealed as the testing takes place.

G4F; Will do! This is not only a 44 Mag thing....there are other large bore handgun cartridges that can benefit from what we are doing here. A very heavy for caliber bullet that could be utilized at low to midrange velocities to accomplish this same task (penetration and controllability) would be universal to any large bore handgun....the 45 Cal comes to mind. If this all works out, any 400 grain bullet at the 1000 fps mark should be able to accomplish the feat...but, only time and testing will tell. I believe I heard you say on another post that you own a 475 Freedom Arms.........there is a 420 grain cast bullet made for the 475 (maybe some that go beyond that), that driven at 1000 fps or so, would have the same effect (maybe better) to that of the 44 Mag with the 405. Once we have this proven (or disproven as the case could possibly be) with the 44 Mag, I would encourage folks like you, Scrapper, Sonny, etc, that have some large bore handguns of other calibers to pursue what we have done. A "full blown" test of other calibers would be very interesting!!! By the way, in talking to the "originators" of this idea (who are also performing tests), we have yet to see anybody who has pursued a venture like this, so, it would be nice to see others get involved with different caliber handguns...the more, the merrier.

I know that John Taffin mentions in his book Big Bore Handguns, that he took an 1100-1200 lb buffalo with his 4 3/4" .475 Linebaugh Model 83 with the .480 Ruger cylinder installed. He used a 410 CPBC at roughly 1100 fps to do it, and had complete penetration through the shoulders, in and out. That's about what your load should do as well, and maybe even better due to the better sectional density of the .44 bullet.

G4F; In discussions that our group has had from time to time, and from info gleaned from Linebaugh by a friend....the magic number as far as velocity seems to be that 1000 to 1200 fps mark, regardless of what bullet weight is used.....the larger the game, the heavier the bullet, but the velocities remain in that range. For years, I shot the 44 mag at top end loads, but, a 250 grain Keith at 1000 fps changed my way of thinking forever. I took two deer with that load, and in both cases the bullets penetrated fully...dead is dead. It makes sense to me that a heavier bullet in that same velocity range would get the job done on larger game, and there are a few that have proven that out. If memory serves me, Linebaughs old 44 Mag load for the big bears is a 310 grain cast at 1200 fps, and he should know more than anyone about "penetration"!!! I do know one thing for sure, "overdriving" bullets will cause deformation of the bullet upon impact, and actually reduces penetration. You are on point about the sectional density as well. A lot of factors determine the penetration capabilities of a given load, but, blistering velocities in a handgun, and at handgun ranges are proving to be nothing more than a waste of powder, and palm skin. This is why we feel that this 405 at 1000 fps will work well for the purpose....now all we need to do is prove that out.

Just started reading this, VERY interesting indeed!
I can't wait to get to the penetration tests, I suspect it might read something like.......... 8 cows, side by side, or 2.5 cows, end to end!

Maglvr; I dont think the results will read "that" good....LOL! I am doing some research now, trying to find all the items necessary to put together a penetration box that will replicate a large game carcass. A friend who attends the Linebaughs every year...has taken many large game animals, and has been involved in bear attacks, etc, has given me the recipe that he uses to test his handgun loads, that have proven reliable over the years. Even he has shown interest in what we are doing....His loads with lighter bullets, and at higher velocities, are a bit steeper than ours, and he admits that follow up shot controllability could be improved. Also, one of the fellas that is working with us on this will be carrying this load on his next trip to Alaska, and will try to get some real penetration tests done on large game carcasses. This excersize is very interesting indeed, and we will keep you posted.

My 435gr LFN in my .500 Linebaugh, at 1000 fps, traveled through 30" of soaking wet newspaper at the Linebaugh seminar in New Braunfels, TX, about 8 yrs ago or so.
Glad you guys are working so hard on this. I'm waiting on some 405's for my .44 Mag.
Have a good day; company coming...gotta run.
Sonny

Excellent !!!!!

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

FT,

Keep us posted, it sounds interesting. I'm running 250gr in my 41's @800fps and am seriously looking at the 300gr.

todd

__________________
Blessed, not lucky

Sonny; Keep me posted on your results!
Scrapper; We are trying!
zan516; There are so many variables in testing penetration compared to penetration on actual game animals, that all we can do is "guesstimate" through testing what will occure in a real life situation. Nothing is written in stone. My one friend who has had first hand experience in the "real world" told me that any handgun capable of pushing a 300 grain cast bullet (suitable for the purpose of hunting...which is a whole nuther story) at 1300 fps, or a 325 grain bullet at 1250 fps has enough oomph to get the job done...and, has proven that out.....but, in my working with these loads, even in a large, heavy Redhawk, quick follow up shots are hard to make in a timely manner (speed counts!). As I mentioned above....On the flip side of that there are those of us that believe that there is a "magic" velocity (around 1000 fps) that will produce phenominal penetration on all size game animals, and, increasing the weight of the bullet to suit the size of the game is all that is needed...while the velocity stays about the same....and those quick followup shots are easier to make. In your 41 Mag, you can push a 300 grain bullet from 1000 to 1225 or so (depending on barrel lenght...and your particular firearms strength), and maybe even beyond that, and the only way you would know what penetrates best is to run your own series of tests. So feel free to jump on the wagon, test those 300's in your 41, and report the results. I am sure that there are many 41 Mag owners who would appreciate your efforts!

Many shooters have no idea that, past the magical 1000fps-1200fps. zone........The faster they go / The faster they slow(in the target that is, aka. faster = LESS penetration, especially with a hardcast, flat nose).
After all, this is America, the faster something is, the better it has to be! advertizers have programmed that in our minds for decades.
Just one more reason I haven't bought a gun rag on over 15 years now
Happy testing and keep 'em heavy and slowwwwwwwww! Can't wait for some penetration tests.
Maglvr

maglvr; I agree with you 100%............a good case in point...The 450/400 Nitro Express has taken every game animal in the world including the largest pachyderms that Africa has to offer. The standard load is a 400 grain bullet at 2150 fps. (not exactly a blistering barrel burner) The 450/400 NE is an old cartridge...but, within its range it is a proven cartridge, and to my knowledge, the worlds game have not gotten any bigger or tougher as the years have passed....it can do the same job today as it proved itself capable of at its inception, and has always been considered the "standard" as an all round African game caliber.........but, listen to the gun "gurus" today, and if you are not shooting the most new-fangled, computer controlled, laser guided, ultra high velocity, depleted uranium jacketed bullet, at speeds that are guaranteed to eat your barrel alive, then, I am sorry, but you couldnt kill a chipmunk let alone a large dangerous game animal! I think we live in a society that requires something new every now and then just to keep folks interested, increase profits for the industry, and keep gun writers busy, and out of trouble! Just think about all the trouble they could cause if they had nothing to write about!!!

I like the conversation here. I know what ya mean about the American public liking speed and it's now selling these new guns like the 460 XVR's. I gotta say it did catch my eye and so I looked and bought, but not for the sole reason as for the speed which is why I spend much time to make sure I find guys like you that shoot the heavy lead.

When I looked into the 460 XVR I looked mostly on the internet for info since there isn't a bunch of people around me that know about or even want to talk about firearms. In my search I found this page GunBlast 460 XVR I saw the versatility of ammo and it kinda sold me along with just the fact it was a Smith and Wesson.

Thanks for the very interesting conversation everyone.

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

Scrapper; I am not demeaning the 460 or any other new large bore handgun caliber (or any other gun for that matter)...I guess the real plus in owning such a gun, is its ability to push those big heavy for caliber bullets at enough of a velocity to get the job done. What gets to me, and maglvr brought this up, was that "some" gunwriters go off the deep end in professing that the higher the velocity the "better" the performance, and that is not the case at all. The way I feel about it is that for a given bullet weight, used within a given yard range/distance, there is a velocity that will allow the bullet to perform at its highest level, and meet the goals set forth by the reloader. Take this 405 we have been working with. At a 1000 fps velocity at the muzzle it will be traveling at about 900 fps at 50 yards. Lets say, that 405 will do everything it is supposed to do between 10 yards and 50 yards...If that bullet would be expected to perform at 100 yards, then the velocity would definately need to be increased. I am not a long range handgunner...I still use open sights (no scope) on my handguns, and I am limited by my old eyes....so, for me, if I need to reach out past 50 or 60 yards, I would be best suited with a rifle. For me, hot handgun loads would not serve good purpose, and for most handgunners that stay within 50 or 60 yards, a heavy bullet at a moderate velocity will get er done. A good case in point, but, it involves one of those new hot rifle calibers...a short, fat case, driving a light 6mm bullet at "high velocity". A buddy of mines son was "sold" on the caliber by a magazine article, and a salesman at (I wont mention the name of the chain store...but, one of the more popular). Anyway, its deer season, and along comes this huge 8 pointer. The son aims carefully, and squeezes off on the shoulder. The deer is hit and takes off running. Eight shots later, the poor deer is finally dead!!! Upon inspection of the carcass we found that not one of the shots penetrated or broke major bone when it was hit. This caliber/bullet/velocity combination was totally unsuitable for the purpose....but, the magazine article and the "salesman" said it was perfect for the job...because of its "high velocity". So, i guess the point I am trying to make here is that choosing a suitable caliber, bullet, load combination (for the purpose) is much more important than the "high velocity" hype we have to keep listening to. Like my dad always used to tell us kids..."there is a time, and a place for everything", and i guess that applies to shooting as well....and, my buddies sons new high velocity cartridge, was not correct for the time and the place! For many, many years, I have relied on my own experience, and the experience and advice of a trusted few....not gunwriters (although there are a "few" that I highly respect), the "industry" or a "salesman".

FT
I believe you are a way better writer than any of these magazines which BTW I do not buy. It seems to me you are like the guys I grew up with and I can tell that by the the way you write.

and as far as this concerned well I think we all know these kind of writer are Good BS'ers, cause I know for a fact that these heavy lead bullets have the inertia of a TRAIN and when they hit something they like to keep going LOL.

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

I think we all know these kind of writer are Good BS'ers, cause I know for a fact that these heavy lead bullets have the inertia of a TRAIN and when they hit something they like to keep going LOL.[/QUOTE]

You are 100% right on!!!! LOL!!!!

Precisely!! Great post! And as Flat Top has pointed out, these loads are not only more effective, but they're more fun to shoot and effective with faster follow-up shots!

I've got a really good buddy who bought a 460. When the X-frame first came out, I thought S&W should have made the cylinder window a 1/2" shorter, and just gone with the 500 Linebaugh as the 500 S&W worries too much about velocity / powder space. (Of course, the point above is so correct about "velocity sells" what else could S&W have done??)

Then, they came out with the 460, and my first reaction was WHY?!? Then, a buddy of mine bought one, and when we went to the range, I found so little recoil (due to the weight of the pistol) combined with trajectory that made 200 yard shots do-able, that I understood immediately what was going on... Even more velocity and lower recoi... S&W just sold thousands more pistols, regardless of their real efficacy...


Tagged to watch FT's progress. This is exciting. I've gone as heavy as a 335gr from an H&G mould, but that I loaded in the 444 Marlin, not in the 44 Mag. If this works out, I may try some in the 44 Mag. at "low" velocity. Might also be interesting in a Marlin 1894 Carbine...

I am also a levergun nut! I run some pretty stiff loads in the Marlin 444 XLR that I modified to a longer COAL a few years ago. I can push a 325 grain bullet out of the 16.5" barrel at 2263 fps (and it still has a lot more to give)....about the same velocities as a 22/24 incher with no modifications. This XLR is short, very light (6.2 pounds...scoped, loaded, and slung), and very handy in the thick environment that I hunt in.............My next project will be another COAL modified 444 XLR, yet this project will keep the 24 inch barrel, and will be a standard weight rifle. It will be capable of pushing the same 405 grain bullet that we are now testing, to 2150 fps....the same ballistics as the 450/400 Nitro Express. I am going to call it my "Safari Grade" levergun! It will be capable of taking anything that walks this earth!!!.............Dont get me wrong here folks, velocity and power does have its place in the scheme of things, but, when it is used inappropriately it is just a waste of gun powder, and could possibly not do the job as intended.....Case in point: My deer load for the short barreled levergun is a 300 grain bullet at 1850 fps, and, for the distances I work within (very close), this load is perfect for the task...this load is also very popular with 45-70 hunters in my area. I "can" crank the 325 grainer up for larger North American game animals if the opportunity exists. The great thing about reloading is being able to "tailor" a specific load to a specific purpose. It is economical, saves wear and tear on the gun, and reloading components, and wear and tear on the shooter as well.

Attached Images

004.jpg (19.1 KB, 63 views)

That's one nice lever gun.

Brings back memories of shooting my Dad's model 94 Winchester 30-30 when I was 7 yrs old. I remember My Dad and his friend told me to sit down (shoot from the knee) as they were behind me. They told me to stare at the center of the target and they were going to hand me the rifle (so I was not to look back at them). Dad handed me the rifle loaded and so I lined up and squeeeeeeeeeezed one off, the gun was unloaded and I flinched. Once they brought this to my attention (of course I knew what I had done) Dad taught me to squeeze without flinching in a series of these kinds shots, surprising me with a loaded or unloaded gun. Soon that day of about 100 shots I was an expert shot with that rifle. After that we went on to practice with rolling bouncing targets made from the cutouts that were saved from those round bathroom sink counters. You can really get good that way and it's fun.

Sorry I got off the subject but a thought was triggered LOL.

EDIT: They also used to send me into the thickest and I mean thickest briar bushes they could find to put up game, rabbits, grouse, pheasant and we even had around 7 beagles hunting at the same time. Some of these bushes we're so thick I could get in but then I would get stuck and really get P/O'ed LOL....one time I shot 3 rabbits in one of those briar patches that grow like a giant tent LOL. They worked me hard at a young age, it was tough but had it's rewards.

I made another thread dang it>>>>How did your Dad teach you how to shoot and hunt?

__________________
YouJustCantSeeMeLaughingIsAll

Scrapper; That was a good training excersize! Your dad knew what he was doing! On occasion, I will put a few rounds in one of my revolvers, close my eyes, turn the cylinder and close it. Then commence to shooting....It keeps me sharp. Never knowing when a live round or an empty cylinder will present itself.... helps me concentrate on sight alignment and trigger pull. Little excersizes like this done from time to time, and the moving targets that you mentioned (we use balloons on a windy day) can really keep a shooter on his game.

FT, I like the way you think. My deer load for the 444 is a 250gr black talon (pulled from 44 Mag ammo) loaded to 1850fps. Because those bullets are rare & expensive, I practice with a 240gr JHP loaded the same, and I call that my "carbine load", because it is about the same as I get from a full-power load in a 44 Magnum carbine...

My full-power loads for the 444 Marlin are the 280gr Swift A-Frame with enough H322 to get 2250fps for my "Full-Power Expander load" and 285gr Lyman 429640 RNFP-GC with enough RL-7 for 2300fps as my "Penetrator load." I could go heavier (or lighter and faster), but these loads are fully capable of taking anything in North America at 150 yards or less. That suits me.

How insanely popular the poor, misunderstood .480 Ruger would have become, IF, it had been marketed as the ".480 Penetrator", ".480 Goliath" or the ".480X480 S-R MAG." with loads that had 480 grain bullets, traveling at 1000-1100fps.
Then concentrate the advertising hype on penetration, and show it compared to other standard ("hyper-velocity") cartridges.
Why the folks at Ruger would still be trying to fill the initial orders! With a little common sense, it could have been the next .44 Magnum.

MMA10mm; A buddy of mine who has all the computer ballistics programs and pressure test equipment that anyone could ask for, ran my original "goal" load (for the modified 16.5" 444)...a 325 at 2050. That load produced the muzzle energy of a 30-06...at 150 yards!!!!(which is also my max distance for large game for my 444). Your 280/285 loads would be comparable! That, is a lot of power, and will easily down anything on this continent! A fella I know took a huge moose with his 444 and a 290 grain cast at your approximate velocities, and a large black bear weighing 500+. In both cases, all it took was one shot, and the deed was done! The 444 is one of the most underated cartridges, but for those of us who "know" this cartridge and its potential, it is the end all for large game at close to medium ranges.

madlvr; You also have noticed that the manufacturers marketing tactics are dismal at best. They just dont "read" the market very well, and one thing for sure, the dont listen to their customers! I guess they know whats best for us. I own a Smith 696-0, and what a sweet revolver it is. Its out of production and according to Smith will not be produced again....why.... was it "too good"?!?!?! I would guarantee you that if they did produce the 696 again it would sell like hot cakes! I also contacted Smith about an X-frame in 44 mag....no intention of doing that....so, I just went and bought a Redhawk...a 44 magnum handgun that is built like a tank and can handle those very popular heavy bullet loads that would rattle the inards out of an N frame. The X frame could easily handle those loads...but, what do I know! I could go from one manufacturer to the next, but why waste the time! We, the shooting public, know what trips our trigger, and we do like to see our favorite firearms makers succeed in the market place, but, if they wont listen, what are we to do. I guess this is what happens when "bean counters", not shooters, run a firearms business!

Hey FT, I'm glad you got your Redhawk .44. What bbl-length did you come up with? I saw that you had placed a trade ad for your 629 3" and almost called you, but I like my Redhawk too much. I'm not surprised that you didn't want to get rid of your 696; I like mine also.
Keep up the good work. I'm still waiting on my big bullets but they should be here shortly, so that I can participate (johnny come lately) in your project.
Sonny

Hey sonny! This will be my second Redhawk. I have a blued 5 1/2" barreled 44 Mag already, and the gentleman that is doing the deal for the Smith is trading me a 4" barreled 44 Mag. I loved my Smith 2 1/2" 44 Mag, but, I just didnt feel right thinking about shooting those heavyweight bullets in it (so I didnt), and, rather than ruin a good gun, I decided to let it go (as much as I hated to). The 696 is wifey's gun, and I am not prepared to pay for a divorce if I get rid of it!!! So, it will be in the family for a long time I am sure. I do have plans for the new Redhawk, but, more on that later. When you start shooting those 405's let me know your impression, and if you get to do any penetration tests keep me posted. We need to compile all the info we can get on this bullet and load.

FT,

As soon as I can locate some 300 grainers for the 41 I'll give them a try. I can find 275 gr Keith type, but I think I'll wait until I find the 300 grain WFN. I'm looking at the 800-1000fps range. The penetration was great when I used that range on my 454 Casull (300gr and 335gr). Through and through penetration on the whitetails I've taken in the past, and I didn't get "beaten up" in the process.

Since this is on the "back burner", it may be a little while until I get a chance to try it. I will pass it on when I have some results.

todd

zan516; My favorite deer load (and defense load) for the 44 mag is a 250 Keith at 1000 fps. I had the same results on deer as you!!! The only thing I could think of that would better that load a bit would be your 300 at 1000 idea! For any large bore handgun, 41 mag and up, I think that anything over a 300 at 1000 would be "overkill" for deer sized game....just not needed.....yet, still a very controllable load. Here is a beartoothbullets.com 300 grain 41 mag bullet. The stats say that this bullet will not stabilize in a Smith because of twist rate, but, will work very well in a Ruger. Beartooths next lighter weight is a 285, which will work well in all handguns. As far as the 300 not stabilizing.........I had fears that the 405 in the 44 Mag would not stabilize as well (the twist in my Redhawk was not at all suitable for a bullet that long), but my testing proved that wrong (a good thing). All you can do is give it shot. Also, Beartooth uses an alloy that will not break up on bone as some other hardcasts will, and this has been proven time and time again at all velocities...including those produced by high power rifles. For hunting purposes I "trust" the Beartooth to get the job done no matter what I use them in! Give Marshall a call out at Beartooth and he will guide you in selecting the proper size (bullet diameter) and maximum weight for your 41 mag. Well, when you can find the time, let the testing begin! I would also like to see other calibers of big bore handguns represented in this test of heaviest for caliber handgun bullets at 1000 fps. So far our results with the 44 mag and the 405 have shown great promise, and I think that there is no reason why this formula would not work out well for other calibers...and please do keep us posted on your test results!!!!

Attached Images

BTB-41-300gSSK2.jpg (7.0 KB, 51 views)

Anything over 280 is just too much in the .41. I have owned several, and still have a mint S prefix 57. The S&W's won't stabilize anything over 280, and even those are iffy. On top of that, in the Smith at least, you will need to replace the rear sight blade for a lower one with these heavyweights if you want to be able to regulate your sights to hit point of aim. Ask me how I know.

G 4 F,

Thanks for the info, I'll keep it in mind as I experiment.

todd

zan516; Keep us in mind when you are done, and please report back whether the results are good or bad. Thanks! FT