Loading upside down again 38 SPL

[tacotime]

Can you give me the recap on the idea of loading the SWC upside down in .38 special?

And is that ever done with HBWC bullets, making a mean hollow point?

And cons to this idea?

[05CarbonDRZ]

I know it has been done with HBWC but have never heard of doing it with SWC Bullets.

[Moonman]

I've not heard of SWC loaded upside down.

Hollow Based Wadcutter's loaded upside down I've heard of.

I load some 148 Button-Nosed Wadcutters that I cast button nose down,

in this mold casting they shoot slightly better.

MOONMAN

[Rule3]

Might be a big HP but usually those bullets are real soft lead so it's just gonna be mush.

[zonker5]

There are a lot of "war stories" going around about these. Personally I'll stick with a proven factory HP from Hornady, Remington or the like before I'll try to cobble up something.

[Moonman]

A great deal of ballistic development has been done over the last few years.

Years ago choices and options were few.

[rwsmith]

I'm going to market a 'backwards bullet'. It's a revolution in bullet construction. They will look just like a lead round nose but are made to be loaded backwards. There are many advantages to this configuration.

[Nevada Ed]

A few years back there was a bullet test for a J frame with 110gr to 158gr bullets by the factory, with a few loads tossed out that did not cut it.

The thread is still up but so old the names of the ammo is now missing but the velocity and penetration is still available.

One of the loads was a 148gr HBwc, loaded backwards but this "Trick" load only penetrated 9 inches and the author of the article was very disappointed.

Over the years dealing with power factor and recoil of loads, I have come down to the 110gr Jhp at 880fps and 945fps along with a 125gr Jhp at 870-888 fps out of the snub nose J frame, for SD use.
For some reason the 110gr would not shot to poa for me and the Remington SJHP was 2" low on impact and on one internet 4G test, "Plugged" two times in a row and exited after 21" of gel.

Some say if the bullet is going to plug, you might as well load the 148gr the normal way and keep it around 775 fps in the snub nose for faster repeat shots.

The PF is 114, just under the 135gr +P of 116.

Good luck figuring out what you will be shooting.
I am still trying to figure things out.

Just found this:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/11/1...cket_dynomite/

[H Richard]

Many years ago when I did load up a few HBWC in reverse the idea was for it not to penetrate too much for an in house defense load that wouldn't punch through the house walls and endanger an innocent next door. I still have a box of these loaded in (I think) 1983. One of these days I'll take them to the range and empty the brass. If I remember correctly they did shoot pretty well out to 10-15 yards.

[mikld]

I remember in the early '80s HBWC loaded backwards was the "hot new thing". Finally, a magazine did a test of several loads using bass-akward HBWC bullets. Shot into wet newsprint covered with a piece of denim, IIRC. Many of the bullet "hollow points" just got clogged and acted like a solid. Some of the hollow ends just collapsed, and only a small percentage acted as intended; a large mushroomed bullet. I tried it but the ammo was inaccurate, 4"-6" at 15-20 ft. in a 2" .38, and terrible accuracy at 40 ft., 10" or so. Not much better in a 4" .38...

[Jellybean]

Reversed HBWCs work just as well as any other hollow point, factory or not, since they are the same thing. Make sure you use data for a non-hollow point bullet though as they need the extra velocity to maintain accuracy. Penetration and power factors aren't as important as most gun writers want us to think and this has been known for years, it only shows their lack of knowledge on the subject, or their over eagerness to support their advertisers.

Seating a SWC, or even a LRN bullet really does nothing but make them wadcutters. While there is no problem with seating HBWCs backwards, there is with seating SWCs or LRNs reversed. They will be seated deeper than normal and the powder charge will need to be reduced to keep you pressures safe. If you want to shoot wadcutters, it's best to buy or cast them yourself because they work much better that way.

Wadcutters make an excellent self defense bullet and I prefer them over any hollow point, their only drawback is that they can be difficult to load under stress.

[tacotime]

Good info, thanks. And as usual, opinions run the range from high noon to midnight.

I suspect the backwards load can be similar in effectiveness to others for SD usage.

As long as there is no technical problem with the backward load (such as the now-forward skirt disintegrating or something like that) then I begin to think the load would be a heck of a small varmint round for those of us who like to hunt the small varmints with the .38. On the Hornady version, the cavity now facing forward, is pretty deep and the skirt thickness at the edge is not very much. Seems like that blow-up bullet would be just the ticket for the nightly coon attack at the barn.

[Nevada Ed]

I found another test with the 148 HBwc and I am wrong, it will penetrate more than 9".

In this test the backwards loaded bullet with hollow cavity in the forward position at a velocity of 780 fps penetrated a gel pack to 9" out of a J-frame snub nose..............

but the same load on 4 layers of denim on the gel pack went 19" when the tip got "Clogged" with material, during its travel.

Nothing wrong with a 148 but I would feel safer using the BBwc style that does not separate or tumble at higher speeds.

[Peak53]

I don't know about the HBWC but I have excellent results loading the 148 DEWC backwards ... or forward for that matter ... Just as intended.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cal44]

There is at least one commercially loaded reverse WC product:

38 Special +P

We had a long, rather controversial, thread on this Atomic ammo load here on the forum a few months ago.

Worth reading.

Dave

[tacotime]

Looks like another thread that I just posted to, asking why these wouldn't be seated flush with the case mouth?

Don't the manuals call for flush seating?

Or maybe if you seat upside down, the hollow cavity is now not in the case, making the case internal volume smaller, and hence, they seated outside the mouth...

Either way, the load looks like a serious "coonsmacker".

[Double-O-Dave]

Many years ago, I purchased some expensive Hydra Shok rounds (Scorpion?) in .38/.357 Magnum loading for SD/HD. As I recall, they appeared to be inverted, 148 gr. wadcutters with a centrally mounted (steel) post in the middle of the cavity. I believe they were advertised to provide "controlled expansion" to over .70 caliber. They certainly "looked" deadly, but I almost got in trouble with them in what I think was a "road rgae" incident when my driving didn't seem to please a truck driver. The truck driver pulled over blocking my forward progress, and came out of the cab with what appeared to be an axe handle. I exited my car with a S&W Model 66 with 2.5 inch barrel, and loaded with the Hydra Shoks. I leveled this at his head as he continued to approach me. I remember with surprise and shock that a loaded, .357 Magnum pistol pointed at his face didn't impress him. In a moment of clarity, I realized the sun was behind me, and because I had loaded essentially high-powered wadcutter rounds, and because of the lighting, this guy probably thought I was trying to bluff him with an empty gun. I don't know what compelled me to do it, but I then cocked the hammer and dropped my aim to his groin area. That got his attention, and he beat feet back to his truck and drove away. A gas station owner had witnessed the whole event, and informed me that she had called the highway patrol (Texas DPS) for assistance. I thanked her, and had a conversation a few minutes later once the Trooper arrived. He agreed with my theory, and advised for me not to pull the gun unless I was going to use it. Good advice.

After that incident, I loaded the Model 66 with 125 gr. JHP rounds as that was considered the premier fight stopper at that time. The Hydra Shoks I gave to a girlfriend for self defense.

Regards,

Dave

[tacotime]

Wow!

But at the same time, the mere sight of the shooting iron sent the bad guy away with nobody hurt, so point against that advice.

Not sure the other possible outcomes would have been as good as the result you obtained!

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by Cal44

There is at least one commercially loaded reverse WC product:

38 Special +P

We had a long, rather controversial, thread on this Atomic ammo load here on the forum a few months ago.

Worth reading.

Dave

Wow! Atomic Ammo has more advertizing hype than Buffalo Bore. To bad they can't sell on TV and say wait! there's more!

Bring Back the Speer Flying Ashtrays! I have a box of 45 ACP

[USSR]

Simply no need to play around with loading bullets backwards when bullet like these can be used.

Don

[Nevada Ed]

Me like those shiny silver "Dragon Slayers" !!

My, what BIG EYES they have......................

[JimC]

This thread brought back memories from my LE days back in the late '70's, early '80's.
It took awhile but I found my remaining 24 rds.
I experimented with loading the 148 gr, HBWC in reverse after reading in some magazine article that this was an effective round for SD.
I believe the rounds shown here are loaded with the Speer version of that bullet.
I do recall loading the Rem. bullet of the same configuration.
We tried them in the S&W M-36 2", S&W M-36 3" HB and the S&W M-60 2" for off-duty use.
I recall the accuracy from all three guns was iffy at best beyond 15 yds. Some bullets from the 2" guns tumbled.
When our rules and regs were changed to specify what ammo could be carried off-duty, this experiment was abandoned.

[Jellybean]

Take a close look at posts 20 and 21. Those hollow points are nothing but hollow base wadcutters turned upside down, except their "eyes" are a little smaller.

Hollow base and hollow point bullets have both been around for a long time. There are advantages and disadvantages to any changes you make and it is hard to find any one bullet that will do everything the "best".

One thing to consider in this post is, how far will you be shooting them? Wadcutters aren't made for long shots, regardless of how they are seated. Try loading a few and set a target at the distance you'd expect to be shooting toward the barn to see if they are acceptable for you.

To answer the question of seating depth, there is no definite answer. Manuals say to seat them flush because they are intended for match ammunition and that meets SAAMI specifications for "match" ammunition. If you seat them flush and apply a heavy crimp it will roll the edge of the bullet over, which doesn't hurt them. Some people like to seat them out slightly to avoid this. Since they are full diameter the whole length there is a limit on how far out they can seat due to chamber dimensions.

[JimC]

Originally Posted by Jellybean

One thing to consider in this post is, how far will you be shooting them? Wadcutters aren't made for long shots, regardless of how they are seated. Try loading a few and set a target at the distance you'd expect to be shooting toward the barn to see if they are acceptable for you.

Long distance? What would you consider long?
The NRA bulls eye COF calls for 20 shots slow fire at 50 yds., 2 strings of 10.
Some excellent accuracy has been shown at that distance by some very good shooters using the 148 gr. HBWC in the .38 Spl.
Is that long enough to be accurate?

[Nevada Ed]

There are SD loads and there are accuracy loads..........
with the 148gr HBwc bullet.

How often do you see a Dump truck driver going backwards down the freeway ??

For "Yard work"....YES.

[m657]

Decades ago Skeeter Skelton wrote of his fondness for HD loads of SWC loaded base forward.....I believe his main caliber for that was his beloved 44 special, which languished for want of modern terminal ballistic upgrade beyond the mere brute force E=mc^2 mantra.

He nearly convinced me of the advantages but I never got around to giving it a try.

He might have had the 357 mag in mind as well, at this point who can tell.

I do recall his caution was for "IN home use only" as accuracy was affected.

[Jellybean]

Originally Posted by JimC

Long distance? What would you consider long?
The NRA bulls eye COF calls for 20 shots slow fire at 50 yds., 2 strings of 10.
Some excellent accuracy has been shown at that distance by some very good shooters using the 148 gr. HBWC in the .38 Spl.
Is that long enough to be accurate?

I consider long distance with a handgun to be past 125 yards. If I had a longer range to shoot at I might consider it longer, but that's all I've got for now.

Seated and loaded normally the HBWCs are good to 50 yds +, their biggest drawback past that is their poor ballistic coefficient and the slow velocities that they must be shot at. They were pretty much designed for competition out to 50 yards. Seated backwards, they can be driven faster to keep them from trying to tumble, but that actually hurts their ballistic coefficiency which causes them to slow faster and makes them want to tumble well before the 50 yard mark.

I can't think of any "modern" innovations in handgun ammunition that keeps getting mentioned in these forums. The ideas have all been around for a long time. I think the only thing modern is they way the manufacturers have misled the consumers into thinking they "need" certain things, such as: "magnum", "jacketed" and "hollowpoints". The only thing modern about it is the insane prices they are getting and the terminology they are sticking on the box.

To get to the bullets pictured above, they took a HBWC and added some weight to the nose to make it more stable at long range and gave the hollow base an ogive to make it easier to load in the chambers, which makes it less effective than if it weren't. I'm sure those are nice hunting bullets, but what's nice for hunting isn't always best for everything else.

[JimC]

I consider long distance with a handgun to be past 125 yards. If I had a longer range to shoot at I might consider it longer, but that's all I've got for now.

Let's put this into perspective...the average everyday handgun shooter, be it revolver or semi-auto, has no business even thinking of a 150 yd. shot unless they are only firing at that distance for recreational enjoyment shooting which we have all done at one time or another.
I thought we were talking about a round specifically loaded as an alternative SD round?
In my experience a long time back, I found no benefit to loading the 148 gr. HBWC "upside down" in the more popular off-duty revolvers of the day and as I stated, the project was abandoned.

[Jellybean]

Oh, I thought you asked me what I thought was a long shot, not what was a long shot for the average everyday shooter. That would be 25 yards for the average guy at the range and probably 3 yards for the average police officer I've worked with.

The 15 yard max. range you mentioned in your earlier post would have been well within the range of probably 95+% of all police and SD handgun shootings, so why did your experience tell you to abandon it? In your earlier post you said it was abandoned after you were told what to carry off duty.

I incorrectly thought the OP was asking about self defense shooting too, then when he mentioned he was looking for something to hunt with I realized my mistake, so I wanted to make sure his distances would be within reason for his particular needs.

Edited to add: So just how far do you feel the average shooter should be restricted to shoot for non-recreational purposes? I just realized this sounds like a thread from a few years ago.

[Jaymo]

I've been loading upside down HBWCs to about 900 fps in .357 brass.
From my snubs and from my 4" barrels, the accuracy was as good as any load I've ever shot.
Only shot them out to about 15 yards, but none tumbled.

[tacotime]

I did try the Hornadys upside down with 3.0 Bull and they gave about a 3 inch group off the rest at 18 yards. No tumblers. The 15-3 can do about a 1.25 inch group at best (so far).

[oldman10mm]

Atomic reverse wad cutters

[Me239]

Well the Brits used to use them in their Webleys. From Wikipedia: ".455 Webley Mk III: Introduced in 1898. The famous "Manstopper" bullet intended for police, civilian and colonial use. Essentially, the Mk III was a 218 grain lead "hollowpoint" design, propelled by cordite. The cylindrical bullet had hemispherical hollows at each end—one to seal the barrel, the other to deform on impact. This bullet was soon prohibited for use by the military because it was not compliant with the Hague Convention of 1899. The Mark III was withdrawn from service in 1900 and the Mark II was reintroduced."

[Jaymo]

I second the call to bring back the 200 grain flying ashtray.
That was one helluva load. Especially the Cor-Bon loading of it.
Still have some.

[Nevada Ed]

By chance, is there any way you can post a picture of that 200gr load?

I always wondered what the shape of that bullet looked like.
Too bad it did not work out better on glass.........probably would still be available if it did a little better on the LE test back in the old days.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by tacotime

Can you give me the recap on the idea of loading the SWC upside down in .38 special?

And is that ever done with HBWC bullets, making a mean hollow point?

And cons to this idea?

The question is WHY?

[zeke]

Originally Posted by Jaymo

I second the call to bring back the 200 grain flying ashtray.
That was one helluva load. Especially the Cor-Bon loading of it.
Still have some.

Still have 2 Speer value packs (700) of the original flying ashtrays. Work very well in the 45 ar and 45 LC . Tough to minimize setback with em in 45 acp, and some pistols don't feed em well.