Any cast bullet rifle shooters here?

[jphendren]

Hello all,

A while back I purchased a bag of 100 Lyman 225438 44gr. GC bullets to shoot in my Weatherby VarmintMaster .224 Magnum. I purchased them from Montana Bullet Works, and had them cast .225" in linotype, which is BHN 22. I loaded them over 11 through 13 grains of 2400 with Fed 210 LR primers. I believe that I loaded up 6 of each charge weight and fired two three shot groups of each. I never could get them to group, they just looked like shotgun patterns, fairly random. To make a long story short, I gave up on them, but would now like to give it another try. Any tips?

I've read plenty of post of people shooting this bullet in 22-250's with 1-1.5" groups, where did I go wrong? My rifle has a 1-14" twist, .224" diameter, 24" long barrel. I know that some people recommend seating the bullet out further in order to touch the rifling, however Weatherby's have a free-bore, so touching the rifling is not possible in this case.

What should I try next? Different primers, etc...

Jared

[Snapping Twig]

You should post your questions here:

Cast Boolits - Dedicated To The World Of Cast Bullets!

I'm a dabbler. Got a load for the 30-06 and the 7.62x39 but neither is a low power round or MOA. Both these loads are full bore using lead instead of jackets and produce a 2" group @ 100 yards.

[Cary]

Originally Posted by jphendren

Hello all,

A while back I purchased a bag of 100 Lyman 225438 44gr. GC bullets to shoot in my Weatherby VarmintMaster .224 Magnum. I purchased them from Montana Bullet Works, and had them cast .225" in linotype, which is BHN 22. I loaded them over 11 through 13 grains of 2400 with Fed 210 LR primers. I believe that I loaded up 6 of each charge weight and fired two three shot groups of each. I never could get them to group, they just looked like shotgun patterns, fairly random. To make a long story short, I gave up on them, but would now like to give it another try. Any tips?

I've read plenty of post of people shooting this bullet in 22-250's with 1-1.5" groups, where did I go wrong? My rifle has a 1-14" twist, .224" diameter, 24" long barrel. I know that some people recommend seating the bullet out further in order to touch the rifling, however Weatherby's have a free-bore, so touching the rifling is not possible in this case.

What should I try next? Different primers, etc...

Jared

Where did you get the load data you used with the 2400? Are you getting leading in the barrel?
Cary

[2152hq]

Don't know if you're crimping them at all,,,but don't. That'll destroy accuracy in a hurry especially in the small bores w/cast bullets.

Neck tension is another possibility. Too tight and it'll damage the tiny bullets in seating and no accuracy will result no matter what the load.

Short of that,,I'd try another powder and keep everything else the same till you start to see some sort of groups appear. Then start to tweak the load to tighten up the group by playing with seating, perhaps a different primer, ect.

I've never played with 22 or 25cal C/Bullets. But have had excellent results with 30cal and up.

Just some thoughts....

[Paul5388]

First off, you know you need to foul the barrel with the new load and bullet. That can take just a few shots of it can take a lot of shots. It just depends on a lot of different factors.

Second, you need to have some idea of how much of what powders needs to be used. The .224 is a pretty good sized case and Lyman 49th edition doesn't show any cast loads for it. However, the .225 Win is fairly close in case size and it does have cast data for one 55 gr bullet (#225415). 10.0 gr of Unique is the max load listed for the .225, and 7.0 gr is the start load, so I would probably start in the neighborhood of 8.0-9.0 gr.

Just remember, velocity isn't any indication of how much pressure you're getting with these light loads.

[jphendren]

"Where did you get the load data you used with the 2400? Are you getting leading in the barrel?"

I got the data from a Weatherby load book that contains all Weatherby calibers. There is a chapter on the .224 Wby Magnum, and it has a Lyman page with two cast bullet loads listed, one with 2400, and another with Unique. I fired about 30+ rounds loaded with 2400 and this bullet back in Feb 2009, and there was no leading of the rifle that I could see.

"Don't know if you're crimping them at all,,,but don't. That'll destroy accuracy in a hurry especially in the small bores w/cast bullets."

I didn't know that. I have to slightly flare the case mouth in order for the bullet to seat without damaging it. Once the bullet is seated, I had to adjust the seater die to slightly crimp in order to remove the flare.

I can't remember where I read it, but I believe that I read that you should seat the bullet the same depth as its diameter, i.e. .225" deep for a .225" diameter bullet. So I have been doing that.

My load book list 11-13gr of 2400 with a 45gr cast bullet. My bullets are 44gr with a gas check, so I figured that is pretty close. I have tried every charge weight from 11 to 13 in .5 grain increments, and none of them will group.

Jared

[dddddmorgan]

My first response would be ??? to loading cast boolits in a mighty Weatherby, but hey, shoot what ya got right?

Anyway, I think you should try a dacron filler as well. If you pull a little stuffing out of a pillow (don't let the wifey catch you) and put just a small piece all puffed up in the case before you seat the boolit you might find a big difference.

I use this in my 45/70 which is a fairly large case and I load a dab of pistol powder with cast boolits and it makes a marked difference.

Some people throw a fit when you talk about the dacron filler but I've never ever, ever had a problem with it. Just a dab, all puffed up, just enough to hold the powder in place, and this will take care of your powder placement which might be part of the problem.

Hope this helps.

[Paul5388]

It's quite possible powder position may affect things, but that's easy enough to check by lifting the barrel straight up and then gently placing it on the shooting rest. The same thing can be done by pointing the muzzle straight down. If there is a difference in the POI, you have a position problem that Unique may solve. That's one reason I gave the Unique suggestion.

Another reason would be your gun doesn't like 2400, so again you can try Unique.

Of course, I would try Blue Dot, which is what I use a lot with reduced loads.

[jphendren]

Is Unique more voluminous than 2400? I actually have a can out on the bench, I will give it a try before I give up on the cast bullets.

"My first response would be ??? to loading cast boolits in a mighty Weatherby, but hey, shoot what ya got right?"

My main objective is to save the original barrel for as long as possible. This little rifle is fairly valuable and collectable, so I am trying to prevent the throat from eroding for as long as possible. I mainly use it for plinking, so thought that the cast would kill cans just fine, as well as be easier on the bore.

Jared

[Paul5388]

Unique is a larger flake than 2400 (which looks almost like a ball powder). It's easier to ignite, not that 2400 is hard to ignite. The ease of ignition may cause it to give a more consistent burn and that may help your accuracy.

The linotype bullet with gas check should be engraving sufficiently on the rifling, so that probably doesn't have anything to do with your accuracy.

[elfego baca]

I have been shooting my own cast bullets in 6.5 x 55, 308 win, 7.62 x 39, 30 carbine, and 30/06 for over 15 years. I have been mostly successful accuracy wise.
One 'trick' is to not seat the bullet below the neck of the case.

[Marksman]

I shot my .35 Whelen with cast bullets just this past weekend, the load was 15 gr. Unique under a 220 gr. FP bullet. It grouped satisfactorily. I gave up using Kapok filler because my rifle developed a partial ring in the neck. Like one of the previous posters suggested, you might want to ask your question on the cast boolits forum. Good luck developing a load for your rifle.

[flat top]

jphendren; The key to cast bullet accuracy above and beyond all things is to insure that your barrel is free from all gilding metal left by firing jacketed bullets....which I assume you have. The barrel has to be clean....and, I mean clean!!! Normal cleaning, especially if you have been shooting high velocity jacketed bullet loads in your gun very seldom removes "all" the gilding metal from the bore. If there are traces of gilding metal in the bore, it will act like a magnet and attract lead as the bullet goes down the bore. The bullet loses diameter from the driving bands and bullet base and obturation (gas sealing) is reduced, causing inaccuracy....the more you shoot the worse it gets. The next step is to have bullets that are properly sized for your bore diameter. This requires slugging your bore to get its "real" diameter, and then ordering your bullets sized .002 over that bore diameter. I shoot nothing but large bore cast bullets anymore, but many years ago I was working with .224 and 6mm cast bullets, and inch to inch an a half groups at 100 yards were just about the norm....and that was when everything else was correct.

[Beemer-mark]

Originally Posted by dddddmorgan

I use this in my 45/70 which is a fairly large case and I load a dab of pistol powder with cast boolits and it makes a marked difference.

What load are you using in the 45-70?

[dddddmorgan]

Mmmm... I would have to look it up. I have a bunch loaded and haven't done any in a while but I believe it is 13 gr of Unique. I use this under my cast 45/70 405 gr boolit from an RCBS mold.

Yes Unique is a good powder to use but there is a new "bulky champion" that I was thinking about... Trailboss.

I've tried Trailboss in my 45 Colt an 44 Special thus far and upon thinking about it last night I need to try it in the 45/70.

With 13 gr of Unique and the dacron wad my trusty old Marlin lever gun with ballard rifling will group as good as I can shoot. I actually hit a prairie dog at a tick over 100 yards with this combination once. (It was a big dog)

And for that matter I need to polish up some cases and try some XMP5744 loads under my new cast boolit a 500 gr RCBS mold.

Looks like I need to shoot up what I have loaded, well what a burden ;-)

[Beemer-mark]

I've been looking for Unique but haven't found any in this part of woods for quite awhile. Right now I picked up some IMR 4895, but wish I could get a little lighter load for plinking.

[jphendren]

I've loaded up some with 2400, and I think that I will a do a batch with Unique in the morning. Hopefully something shoot decent this time.

"I've been looking for Unique but haven't found any in this part of woods for quite awhile."

I haven't bought any reloading supplies here in Las Vegas in over a year, but the last time I looked, there wasn't much to buy.

Jared

[Beans]

I would also consider using Trailboss. It has the bulk and has produced some good groups in my o3a3 and my 32-40 highwall

[bluetopper]

I shoot 500 S&W cast lead gas check bullets also from Montana Bullet Works out of my 500 Handi-Rifle with great results with no leading whatsoever.

[Cyrano]

Try 4759 or Trail Boss, both of which are specifically designed for large capacity cases and cast bullets. Unfortunately I don't know any charge weights to recommend.

[jphendren]

Well, I went through quite a few of these little bullets, and once again, none shot very well. A good group was 8"; that is you could even get the rounds on the target. I tried both 2400 and Unique. I guess this rifle does not like this bullet.

Jared

[Paul5388]

I suppose you could always shoot .22 Mag duplicates out of a Hornet or .223 with the remaining stock.

Or, you could try some different powders. Maybe like 9.0 gr of Red dot or 700X, 9.5 gr of PB or Green Dot and last but not least 10.0 gr of SR7625 (these are all .225 Win max loads with a 55 gr cast bullet, so they certainly aren't overloads in your larger case).

Sometimes you have to play with the velocity before a given cast bullet will shoot right. The loads I mentioned will probably be in the neighborhood of 2200 fps and that may still be too high.

[S&W38]

jphendren:

Varmint and Small Game Rifles and Cartridges, Revised and Expanded Edition, 2001, Wolfe Publishing, ISBN 1-879-356-33-3. On pages 56 through 59 you will find Jim Carmichel's 1970 article "Cast Bullets in the .222 Rem." Carmichel explains in some detail what he did, but gives no group measurements for 100 yards or farther. He does mention one-inch groups at 50 yards being sufficient for close range small game hunting, but also mentions groups at 100 yards without specifying group sizes.

Carmichel has a 1969 article "Cast Bullet Loads for the Sixes" on pages 134 through 136 of that same volume. I suggest it because he discusses some details of load development that he omitted in his 1970 article.

I recommend the articles because Carmichel is one of the gunwriters in whom I have long had confidence. I have no experience casting bullets or working up rifle loads for cast bullets.

[38-44HD45]

In handgun caliber carbines, and in rounds like the .45-70, I like cast bullets a lot. I've just worked up a load for my Marlin .357 carbine that runs a 187gr. LBT GC bullet from Cast Performance at 1914 fps. That said, it would never occur to me to use cast pills in something like a Weatherby cartridge. If the only reason you're using them is to save the barrel throat, I'd just load jacketed bullets, but to minimum load levels. You're not likely to shoot enough to significantly erode the barrel, and it's not worth the frustration you must be experiencing from your cast bullet efforts.

[S&W38]

jphendren:

Handloader #265, the April 2010 issue, has an article by Charles E. Petty, "Reduced Rifle Loads with Trail Boss," which you may find interesting and useful. The article does not discuss cast bullet loads.

[Paul5388]

Originally Posted by 38-44HD45

I've just worked up a load for my Marlin .357 carbine that runs a 187gr. LBT GC bullet from Cast Performance at 1914 fps.

Tell me a little more about that load HD. It sounds interesting and usable in my Handi rifles.