I have just started reloading and have successfully made some .38spl reloads. I am using an old Speer #8 reloading manual that I obtained with some other used reloading equipment. The rounds I've produced are 158grn LSWC over 5.0grns of Unique and a CCI #500 small pistol primer. This is the recommended load in the manual with 6.0grns being the max. However, I have been reading accounts that 5.0grns should be considered a +P load due to a reformulation of Unique powder in recent years. Is there any validity to this? I'm worried that my reloads will be too hot for my 1937 built Colt Official Police. I will also be shooting my reloads with my +P rated 638.

The Speer #14 shows 4.7 of Unique behind a 158 gr SWC being max in .38 Special.

+P .38 Special shows same bullet ahead of 5.2 grs of Unique.

FWIW
Dale53

Interesting.

Should I contact Speer and/or Alliant to see what they recommend?

I certainly don't want to ruin my old Colt by putting too hot a reload through it.

How many grains of Unique do others here use for .38spl?

I have been using 5 grains of Unique under a 140 to 158 grain bullet for moer than 40 years. Old Unique and new unique; velocities have not changed in the M27 that I have had all these years. It performs well in a bunch of other Smiths.

Loading books aside, 6 grains of Unique under 158 grain bullet is
WAY TOO HOT!!!!!

Well, you have run onto a problem that has been around for awhile!

You need to get a newer manual for one thing. The powder manufacturers have data sites on the web, use them too.

I use data from the Speer #8 manual a lot and what I said previously may sound hypocritical but hear me out. I use the Speer #8 data in modern firearms that are rated +P or for 357Mag only. Sure, I tried some of it in an older M14 with a 6" barrel. Just a trial though.

The newest Lee manual is the one I would get if I could. It has data collected from many sources. Many from the powder companies.

There have been folks that have shot 5.0gr of Unique in their vintage 38spl revolvers for years. I have also heard of someone busting a forcing cone doing it.

Get a newer manual.

I am planning on buying a new manual.

I just visited Alliant's web-site and in their "Reloader's Guide" they list 4.7grns of Unique combined with a CCI #500 primer producing 815fps from a 6" barrel. In my Speer #8 manual it lists 5.0grns producing 850fps out of the same length barrel.

I have used 5gr Unique in a Marlin rifle. Not very dramatic. I shot some in a Model 10 and it was pretty hot for a 38.

Go here: Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide This will take you right to the page of the Alliant on-line loading that has +P data for this bullet. Notice 5.5 Gr is maximum in the powder manufacturers data. Your 6.0 gr. will be developing in the 26,000 PSI range, this is into moderate .357 Magnum pressures.

4.7 grains

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C & L

In the 2005 Alliant Reloader's Guide, the max .38 Special with 158 gr LSWC was 4.3 gr at 930 fps and 16,000 psi.. The max +P was 4.5 gr at 950 fps and 17,100 psi. Both were shot out of a 5.6" barrel.

I don't believe you'll see any of those numbers in the real world, since that's about what I clock with 5.5 gr.

I've ran this .38 spl load over my chronograph, 5.0 grs of Unique behind a Speer 158gr LSWC in a PMC case and lit by a WSP primer does 901 fps average of 12 rounds out of my 4" S&W 67. This is definitely a commercial equivalent load to Winchester, Remington or Federal 158gr 38 spl+P.

This somewhat depends upon the primer. Using CCI 500 small pistol primers instead of Winchester I will usually get around 2% less velocity.

Your Colt OP is built on the large frame and will stand up just fine to such loads so if it where my gun I'd have no problem shooting your loads in it or the +P rated S&W.

FWIW for many years before chrono's where available and affordable I loaded 158gr LSWC's on top of 5.5grs of Unique. These where shot out .357 mags as I didn't own a .38 spl at the time. When I first bought a chronograph I ran some over it out of that new used S&W 67 I had picked up. These loads averaged 1,084 fps from the 4" Smith well above most +P loads. I decided to back off by .5 grs after that.

5 grains of Unique with a 158 grain LSWC or LSWCHP and a CCI 500 primer is my standard load in all of my .38 Specials, including my Colt Official Police. Never had a problem. BTW, the Colt Official Police frame size was also used for the Colt Trooper which was made in both .38 Special and .357 Magmum, and later the Colt Python .357. I bought my Colt Official Police on March 2, 1982, and God only knows how many rounds I've put through it, all reloads as above, much less how many rounds went through it before I got it. -Ed.

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Shoot the CPU, not the monitor

The #8 Speer manual is known to contain a lot of "hot" loads and if that is the manual you are using, be aware of that.

According to the chronogrph results in Speer #8 the load under discussion would yeild 898 fps in a 6" gun, so that indicates that the pressure is indeed +P.

That load would be fine in the Colt OP, but if it were me, I would not shoot many of those in the 638.

On page 367 you will find loads referred to as "defense loads" and they warn that constant use of these loads in J frame gun will result in loosening of the action.

I would expect the loosening to occure quicker in an aluminum framed gun.

This is a good point. I have run "THE LOAD" through a "J" frame. It was an all stainless steel M60 -13. 3" barrel, adjustable sights and oversize Hogue grips! Surely a handful though, surely a handful!

With 158 grain lead:

4.5 Unique for my everyday load.

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All Rights Reserved

made some target loads the other day ...about 800 of them
5.0 grains Unique,158 LSWC and I love em ...shoot really good...I shoot them in a .357 J frame,M66 and a heavy barrel trick gun I have.

I've loaded 5.0 Unique behind a Lyman 358156 with a CCI 500 primer for years now. With this load I normally skip the gas check. I go ahead and add the gas check when I kick the load up to 5.3 grns. Unique. I shoot them in all my steel frame .38 Special and .357 Mag. handguns.

Wow, thanks everyone for the helpful input. I'm going to shoot today and will see how everything goes.

Last night I ordered the newest Lee manual and will use it from now on.

I will let everyone know how things go.

Current data from manufacturers web sites are the best bet for reloading info. What any of us shoot in our guns may not work for you. It all depends on the gun, bullet and primers you use. This discussion comes up frequently about new powders vs old powders. Unique today burns as close to Unique made in 1950 as it is possible for Alliant to make it. What has changed is the recommended loads that the companies feel comfortable publishing. Whether it is the lawyers or better pressure measuring methods, published data from the 60s and 70s is no longer supported by Speer, Hornady, Hodgden etc. I would not recommend you shoot some of the loads I have put through my 38-44 Outdoorsman (1200fps) in a model 36. It is always better to find a load that works best for your bullet choice and gun. Start low (recommended starting load), shoot from a rest and work up to find which load gives the best group or shoots to point of aim for a fixed sight gun. Save hot loads for a +P gun or a .357 mag gun, that is why they exist. I tend to use bullseye or titegroup in my .38s, but that is my choice not yours. JMHO

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Revolver luvin' Mountaineer

Well, I put 50rds through my Colt and 638 today at the range and they were a little warmer than I would like. Everything on the cases was normal, no signs of overpressure. However, I think I will keep the rounds I have left for a .357 gun or a newer .38spl with a larger frame.

I made quite a few of the 5.0grn loads so this was a lesson learned for me as a new reloader, test your load first before turning out a big batch.

On my next batch of reloads I will take the powder charge back to 4.7grns or 4.5grns.

Thanks again everyone for the advice.

Here's some interesting data from 1961 concerning Unique and ball powders.



You'll notice the pressure data is included, so they weren't flying in the dark on these matters. The velocities are higher than what I recorded for 5.5 gr, but they were using 2 1/2" more barrel and I didn't use a jacketed bullet.

Another thought goes toward recognizing there weren't reports of any of these loads blowing any guns, including the K-38s used by Speer.

This image is from The Complete Guide for Handloading by Phil Sharpe in 1937 (my copy is the Third Edition, Second Revision 1953).



Again, the velocity and pressure is listed for a factory 158 gr lead bullet, which is very close to what Speer got in 1961.

Since Unique hasn't changed in formula since 1898, and still performs just like it did originally, it seems rather odd that we're seeing all of these load reductions from what was used 60+ years ago. All of this leads me to believe the older data rather than the newer data.

Now, the powder companies can put out all of the inflated numbers they want, but you just aren't going to find real world results like they imply you'll get. For some reason, it just isn't logical to think you can get the same velocity with 4.5 gr of Unique that you get with 5.5 gr.

My general purpose load for .38 Special since the mid-1970s is 4.8 grains of Unique with a 158 grain bullet. It gives 858 fps from a 4-inch Model 10 I shoot the occasional box of max Unique loads which is listed as 5.4 grains in the Lyman 46th manual. It gives 935 fps from the 4-inch Model 10 and roughly duplicates factory +P performance.

The .38 Special data has been steadily watered down through the years. It has reached the point where it is pathetic.

This is why I chronograph all that I shoot.

If you are getting 1000 fps from a 38 Sp. shooting a 158 gr. bullet and Unique, you are shooting a +P load.

A J frame gun with an aluminum frame will be safe with that load, but over time it will cause damage to the action.

Well, I don't use much Unique. Just me. But I have shot competition with folks that use a lot of it. One guy used it to fairly whip my fanny as a matter of fact!

I asked what his load was and he told me 4.5gr of Unique under any 158gr bullet, firm crimp. When I asked him the usual question when someone finds out you are using Unique, "Isn't it kind of dirty?" He said at 4.0gr it is terrible, at 4.5gr everything cleans up real nice.

Just a word to the wise!

Try Trail Boss powder for a soft load. I've used it a bunch and like it.

Yep, that's what I load with my j frame, too!

Thanks guys. I ordered more bullets yesterday and will knock my load back 10% to 4.5grns when I put some more rounds together in a week or so.

With nothing but complete success I have for over 20 years used Skeeter Skelton's .38 Special load of 5.0 gr. Unique and a 158-160 gr. hard cast lead SWC. It has always worked exactly how it first worked when I first loaded it and fired it. I can see no need for a heavier .38 Special load. I see no reason to load the round down. Unique is Unique. If those who produce the loading manuals want to lighten the load out of concern for liability, etc., then they are welcome to do so. But I have had nothing but positive results with the above load. I have every intention of continuing to load it.

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<><

OK I want to add to the questions. My carry load for my 642 pocket pistol is 5.4 grns of Unique pushing a LSWC 150 grn (Lyman 358277). It barks but not as bad as some of the factory +Ps I've tired.

Now I just got a Model 64-3, its not marked as for +Ps, so is this load too hot for the Model 64???

According to S&W, any gun with a model number (post 1957) is safe to use with +P ammunition.

I don't know where you got that from. When I asked about my M36 from 1981 they said 'not' for +P.
I've shot it with +P without a problem, by accident.
They didn't say it was dangerous, but they sure didn't say it was 'safe'.

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Pete.

From page 11 of the Owner's manual available for download on the S&W site.
Since that's the only exception, it stands to reason +P is permissible in the others, especially since it's a generic manual for all "Modern Style" revolvers.

Here's the address for all of the manuals http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...ectionId=10504

Here's the manual for "Modern Revolvers". http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore...ver_Manual.pdf

Ok, I see where you got your conclusion from. I guess what threw me off was that S&W recommends ammo that conforms to SAAMI pressure limits, and it was my understanding that +P .38 rounds exceed 'normal' limits. Coupled with the 'modern' .38s specifically stating they were +P rated, I didn't want to guess. S&W's reply in my case was that +P was 'not recommended' in my 1981 M36.

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Pete.

So, let me get this straight, Paul. I'm a tad dense so bear with me.

Any 38Spl with a model number on the crane is fair game for 38spl +P loading? WHOOOOOOOAAAAA!

Look out M14, here come' DA LOAD!
(Kinda! )
From the Hodgdon data website:
158 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .357" 1.455" 5.5 928 17,900 PSI
(I may creep that up a bit. Funny there is no minimum load for the +P load.)

You'll notice the prohibition is only for pre-1958 K frames. That means the other frames, even prior to 1958 will utilize +P loads. According to Elmer, the 5 shooters can use 38/44 loads, if you can stand to shoot them.

I did test "THE LOAD" which is for sure +P+ in my M14, Tell.

No blown up gun, no sticky extraction, and no primer flattening.

Would I use a steady diet of them in it? No, too nice of an old gun to do that to it. Someone breaks in to my house and all I have is 6 of "THE LOAD" laying around, it's gonna get a dose of them, and so will the perp! Just different ends!

Hey gang, just a quick update. I received my new Lee Modern Reloading Manual 2nd Ed. today along with some more bullets. I was rather surprised to see the load recommendations for .38spl using Unique powder, they were definitely on the light side. They suggest 4.3grns as a maximum for standard pressure and 4.5grns as a +P. Alliant's web-site recommends 4.7grns so I will try a small batch using 4.5grns and see how I like that. I can always knock it back if I feel the need.

I am contemplating getting a S&W Model 66 .357mag at some point so I will use the rounds loaded with 5.0grns of Unique for it.

I don't really know what is going on, but it seems to me most of the recently published reloading data isn't worth a damn! I don't know if the companies are getting lawyer scared or what, but they are cutting their own throats. When the loads get too light there is too much chance of sticking a bullet in the barrel, which can end up bulging a barrel or worse. I'm going to be interested to see what the loads look like when the new Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook comes out. The loads in the 3rd edition Cast Bullet Handbook work great. If the 4th Edition handbook (I think that is the edition they are up to) has weenie loads, then we know the lawyers got to them. The .38 Special data in the 12th and 13th editions of the Speer manual can't be trusted; they don't even have data for 158 grain bullets. The loads in the 11th edition work great, and are higher than the few loads they do list for .38 special in the 12th and 13th editions. The data between recent reloading manuals don't agree with each other and they are all over the board. A person has to look at several sources, find the highest and lowest loads, work their way up from the low end trying the loads under many conditions of heat and cold to make sure you don't end up with loads that will give you squibs, and use what works for you in your guns. If you have a chronograph, that will give you real information about your loads. Don't be afraid of loads listed in the older manuals, however, just use common sense and caution when workng up your loads. Most of those older loads have actually been tested in pressure equipment. The only thing I can figure is that the lawyers have told the companies that they need to lie about pressure in their current manuals, or they tweak their equipment in a way that the loads give higher pressures than what they would give if tested in the manner they were tested in the past. I'm glad I'm an old ******* with a lot of experience and a lot of old manuals. A person getting into the reloading game now has such conflicting information available to them they can hardly know what they should do. Good luck!

I just loaded 4.4 grains of Unique under a 158gr LSWC (Missouri Bullets) I was measuring them at about 697fps out of a s&w 442 (1.8" barrel) -Wade-

If they list pressure levels with the loads, and they're comparable to the pressure levels in older manuals, then the energy density of the powder must be more.