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04-11-2010, 09:57 AM
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.45 Colt loads with Unique [posted pics]
I loaded some .45 Colt the other day. My load was 8gr of Unique behind a 200gr round flat nose bullet, using new cases. I used CCI 300 primers. Long story short I was happy with the results at the target but I noticed not all the powder was burning. I had flakes left in the barrels and the cartridges. Anyone else had this experience with Unique? I'm a newbie to reloading, and I'm loading for my 1860 Henry .45 as well as my revolvers. Is there a better choice of powders/primers that will serve both purposes, and will burn cleaner? Thanks, Steve
Last edited by Model25Man; 04-11-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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04-11-2010, 10:24 AM
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I used 9 gr of Unique with a Win LP primer and no complaints. Not sure why you're getting unburned powder, might want to try a tighter crimp.
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04-11-2010, 10:30 AM
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Unique is an excellent and classic powder for the 45 Colt cartridge. As Joed49 suggested, a bit more crimp may help. I've never had any problem with Unique in the 45 Colt. The CCI 300 primer is also an excellent "fit" with the combination you listed.
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04-11-2010, 10:37 AM
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Same load and bullet I use. Mine's dirty too. Tighter crimp helps a little.
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04-11-2010, 10:40 AM
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Thanks for the response. I put a factory crimp on them as they will not feed in my lever rifle without a good crimp. Although it's only a month old, could I have a bad batch of powder?
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04-11-2010, 11:00 AM
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I had the same issue with Unique in 9mm. The powder used was some what old, but had no odor out of the ordinary.
Tried a little tighter crimp, not much luck. Tried a newer keg of powder, bingo, most of the unburnt powder was eliminated.
Perhaps my older powder had been moist at one time causing the issue?
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04-11-2010, 11:06 AM
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I also had a squib yesterday. I pulled the cylinder [Ruger Bisley] to make sure the barrel was clear and there was probably 4 grains of unburnt powder in the barrel?????
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04-11-2010, 11:26 AM
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Good morning. Was the squib the first round you fired or the last?
That much unburned powder would indicate a bullet which jumped its crimp. Have you checked your bullet diameter? It should be .452"
Then there is the possibility you are crimping too much. If there is too much crimp applied the case will expand causing the bullet to be loose in the case despite the nice roll crimp you have applied.
Also consider only belling the case enough to insert the bullet.
I suggest you check the outter diameter of the loaded rounds and give us a measurement and I will check some of my own.
This is an unusual problem for the .45 Colt so more info would be helpful.
Bruce
FWIW I find better shot to shot consistency when I tip the gun back after loading. This places the powder back against the primer. Unique in that big case is somewhat position sensitive.
Last edited by Bruce51; 04-11-2010 at 11:30 AM.
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04-11-2010, 11:35 AM
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My experience with Unique is that it burns dirty with light loads and upping the charge will generally make it burn cleaner. According to the Lyman manual(the only one I took the time to look at) you are below their minimum start load which may be what has contributed to the amount of unburned powder in your loads and your squib.
EDIt....according to your photos, IMHO, your crimp looks fine for the type of load you are using.
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04-11-2010, 12:03 PM
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Hi Bruce. The squib was the 5th round. The bullet diameter is right on at .452. I micro'ed the loaded case starting right below the crimp, and took readings all the way down to the rim. It reads .474 all the way down to the rim.
Last edited by Model25Man; 04-11-2010 at 12:11 PM.
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04-11-2010, 12:09 PM
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Buck, I started with the load mentioned because one of the guns I shoot is a Uberti Schofield. I hadn't located a chart for chamber pressures for specific loads so I was being [probably overly] cautious. I was told last week, by a man that has reloaded for 40 years, that I should have no chamber pressure issues with the Schofield loading up to 9.5 grains of Unique behind my 200 grain bullet. On the other hand though, I'm a firm believer in second and/or third opinions.
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04-11-2010, 12:29 PM
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Your case measurements are good as mine measure .473.5" in Winchester cases with a similar bullet. Still that 5th round squib indicates a problem. Next time your at the range load six and shoot four. Then check the last two for crimp movement. Eight grains of Unique is my minimun charge for a 250 grain lead bullet.
All cases are not equal and some are definitely thinner than others.
What cases are you using? I would check to see if it happens in just one brand or check to see if you have some really thin brass. The last thing maybe your cases need to be trimmed to square up the case mouths and length so the roll crimp is even for all loads. So many possibilities you just have to keep eliminating them.
Bruce
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04-11-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model25Man
I loaded some .45 Colt the other day. My load was 8gr of Unique behind a 200gr round flat nose bullet, using new cases. I used CCI 300 primers. Long story short I was happy with the results at the target but I noticed not all the powder was burning. I had flakes left in the barrels and the cartridges. Anyone else had this experience with Unique? I'm a newbie to reloading, and I'm loading for my 1860 Henry .45 as well as my revolvers. Is there a better choice of powders/primers that will serve both purposes, and will burn cleaner? Thanks, Steve
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Sir, I've had squibs with essentially the same load--.45 Colt, 200-grain cast RNFP, 8.0 grains of Unique, but WLP primers. The easiest solution is to increase the powder charge--Unique burns better toward the top of the data than the bottom. Another option is a heavier bullet, such as a 250; an added benefit of the 250 is that it'll probably print closer to the sights than the 200.
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
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04-11-2010, 02:15 PM
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That's interesting Ron. I really wonder what's going on with the loads?
A while back I had some 200 grain Plated SWC Rainier bullets. I found a cowboy load of 7.5 grains of Unique from the Alliant website.
I loaded a box of 50 and fired them without a problem. Later I loaded 50 more and never had a squib even though the load was very light. I used a good roll crimp over the shoulder.
Now this load is no longer listed by Alliant. Speer #14 has Cowboy loads starting at 7.8 grains of Unique with a 225 grain lead bullet.
The regular 200 grain LSWC has a start load of 8 grains of Unique. That bullet would be deeper into the case if crimped over the shoulder than the bullet being used by model25man.
Bruce
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04-11-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Lee M
That's interesting Ron. I really wonder what's going on with the loads?
A while back I had some 200 grain Plated SWC Rainier bullets. I found a cowboy load of 7.5 grains of Unique from the Alliant website.
I loaded a box of 50 and fired them without a problem. Later I loaded 50 more and never had a squib even though the load was very light. I used a good roll crimp over the shoulder.
Now this load is no longer listed by Alliant. Speer #14 has Cowboy loads starting at 7.8 grains of Unique with a 225 grain lead bullet.
The regular 200 grain LSWC has a start load of 8 grains of Unique. That bullet would be deeper into the case if crimped over the shoulder than the bullet being used by model25man.
Bruce
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Sir, I wish I knew. A couple things come to mind as possibilities.
Lead has a lower coefficient of friction than gilding metal, so presumably lead bullets "get started" sooner and/or faster than jacketed or plated bullets.
A heavy bullet has more inertia to overcome, so presumably would start moving later or slower than a light one.
Unique definitely burns cleaner in heavy loads than light ones. Maybe in a light load, there isn't enough pressure to "keep it lit." Or maybe Unique requires a certain density of powder to burn well. Either would be aggravated in a big case with a light (short) bullet.
Maybe what's happening is that the light lead bullet gets moving too soon or too fast, creating more space in the case while the charge is still burning, and the powder density or pressure drops below the threshold it needs to burn completely.
Or perhaps the gun has big chamber throats and the light load isn't enough to obturate the bullet's base, and propellant gas is whizzing past the bullet instead of staying behind it, dropping pressures below what's needed to drive the bullet up the bore.
Or maybe the .45 elves just don't like light loads. I just don't know. [shrug]
I do know that heavier bullets and heavier powder charges work better in my guns.
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
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04-11-2010, 02:52 PM
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"Or perhaps the gun has big chamber throats and the light load isn't enough to obturate the bullet's base, and propellant gas is whizzing past the bullet instead of staying behind it, dropping pressures below what's needed to drive the bullet up the bore."
That's a good point your making there Ron. I was wondering the exact same thing myself.
I find it interesting as the only gun that I have that has ever left unburned Unique in a case or chamber is in a .32 SWL.
Even my .45 light load left no apparent residue as unburned powder is always noticed right away.
I guess our poster will have to work through the problem.
I agree a higher load level should be tried to get a cleaner burn.
Bruce
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04-11-2010, 03:35 PM
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Over time, I've found that lighter loads burn less efficiently. Unburned powder, soot, etc.
For lighter loads, talking velocity, I use faster powders like W231.
7.5g Unique with a heavier bullet, say a 255g Keith, would burn better - not great, but better. Using a light bullet over a light load of medium speed powder like Unique isn't something I'd do.
The gold standard for .45 Colt is 8 ~ 9 grains Unique under a 255g bullet.
I've used 7 ~ 7.5g W231 under a 255g cast SWC to great effect, but I prefer 9g Unique for the original 900fps of the BP loads it was designed to shoot.
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04-11-2010, 03:52 PM
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["Or perhaps the gun has big chamber throats and the light load isn't enough to obturate the bullet's base, and propellant gas is whizzing past the bullet instead of staying behind it, dropping pressures below what's needed to drive the bullet up the bore."]
The cases I use are new Magtech. I measured a few of them and they are right on spec. I'm having the same problem using four different revolvers, two Rugers[Vaquero and Bisley], an Uberti Cattleman, and an Uberti Schofield.
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04-11-2010, 04:11 PM
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My only other suggestion would be to use a different powder.
I have loaded 5 grains of Bullseye behind a 250LSWC with good results. Bullseye doesn't fill a case very well so be careful. For a 200 grain bullet a start load would be 6.5 grains but check your load data.
Bullseye is not position sensitive and ignites easily. I'm sure there are others using 231 and Trailboss with good results.
Bruce
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04-11-2010, 05:08 PM
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Thanks Bruce for your help. I think I'm going to try some heavier loads. If that doesn't work I'm going to change powders.-Steve
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04-11-2010, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR
My experience with Unique is that it burns dirty with light loads and upping the charge will generally make it burn cleaner. According to the Lyman manual(the only one I took the time to look at) you are below their minimum start load which may be what has contributed to the amount of unburned powder in your loads and your squib.
EDIt....according to your photos, IMHO, your crimp looks fine for the type of load you are using.
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This.
That load is too light. A normal Unique load for .45 LC is about 8.5 gr under a 255 grain bullet, and even that is a low-pressure round, like around 13,000 CUP. Even a .38 Special is up to 16,500 or so.
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04-11-2010, 06:02 PM
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I've found a load that I'm going to try. 9.5 grains of Unique behind a 200 gr. RNFP, for 1076fps. They didn't list the chamber pressure for this load.
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04-11-2010, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model25Man
I've found a load that I'm going to try. 9.5 grains of Unique behind a 200 gr. RNFP, for 1076fps. They didn't list the chamber pressure for this load.
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The Lyman book lists the pressure as 12,800 CUP for a 200 gr. SWC with 9.6 gr. Unique.
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04-11-2010, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model25Man
I've found a load that I'm going to try. 9.5 grains of Unique behind a 200 gr. RNFP, for 1076fps. They didn't list the chamber pressure for this load.
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Sir, just so you know, a couple different sources list that load as maximum. You'd be wise to work your way up to it, rather than going straight there.
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
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04-11-2010, 07:04 PM
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more data
Interesting thread so far. I have been checking several load data sources and the most interesting that I have found is some Alliant Cowboy action data. Here it is FWIW.
200 RNFP 1.585 OAL Bullseye 4.5gr 630fps 6.0gr 835fps
Red Dot 4.2gr 640fps 5.7gr 824fps
American Select 4.2gr 640fps
Green Dot 4.2gr 640fps 6.6gr 834fps
Unique 5.7gr 614fps 7.8gr 851fps
That is the lowest Unique charge that I have found listed for the .45 Colt.
I know that I would never use such a small charge as that is too low for Unique. I think we all agree on that point.
Bruce
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04-11-2010, 07:34 PM
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I've had a 'time' trying to find chamber pressures for the Unique/200gr RNFP combination. I have some ammo from a friend that is a 200gr. semi-wadcutter with 9.5 grains of Unique. It was fine in my Rugers, but I'm a little hesitant to try it in my Schofield. And they won't feed in my rifle. :<(
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04-11-2010, 07:56 PM
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Those Cowboy Action loads are almost squib loads, and for a reason. They don't need any power and don't want recoil slowing them down.
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04-11-2010, 08:30 PM
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I have loaded a lot of 200 and 255 grain swc's with 7.0 of Unique. I have never had a problem, but think I should probably go to 8.0.
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04-11-2010, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model25Man
I also had a squib yesterday. I pulled the cylinder [Ruger Bisley] to make sure the barrel was clear and there was probably 4 grains of unburnt powder in the barrel?????
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I assume you meant 4 flakes of powder not 4 Grains---half your load of powder. Yes Unique is considered to be a dirty powder(residue left in barrel and case) by many people when used in light loads. Also you get a lot of soot on the exterior of your cases since insufficent pressure to seal case to the cylinder walls.
I would not be one to jump from 8.0 to 9.5 grains right away. Just a suggestion check your scale,make sure it is properly leveled and at zero. Then weigh your charges again. When I change the measure setting I always throw the first 2 or 3 charges back into the measure hopper then dump the next 10 into the scale. Divide this weight by 10 to get an average to see what you are throwing.
I suggest checking your scale as a precaution,I have read of instances where individuals have ruined a revolver from believing they had the scale set right. Besides it can't hurt just a safety thing is all.
Hope you get it worked out a squib is no fun.
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04-13-2010, 09:00 PM
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I've seen some data in Handloader magazines where they list 45 Colt data in several pressure groups. For example , 14,000, 20,000, & 32,000 pressure loads. You have to consider the gun you have & what your use is. I load for a Ruger Blackhawk & a Judge & load accordingly. Most loads are very modest, just a few with 9.7 grains Unique & some 2400 under a 250 grn bullet. Even those loads are not in the 32,000 catagory, H-110/win-296 & a few others would do that.
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04-13-2010, 10:13 PM
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["I assume you meant 4 flakes of powder not 4 Grains---half your load of powder."]
Nope, it was about 4 grains of powder. I've triple checked the scale, and even weighed the charge on my neighbor's scale to check for accuracy.
I'm going to load 25 rounds using 9 grains and see how those chronograph out of my Henry 1860 and the Schofield.
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04-13-2010, 10:16 PM
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["The Lyman book lists the pressure as 12,800 CUP for a 200 gr. SWC with 9.6 gr. Unique."]
Thanks for the info. That should be no problem for the Schofield.
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04-14-2010, 01:34 AM
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My standard load for my Ruger Vaquero is 10 grains of Unique behind a 255 grain bullet.
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04-14-2010, 04:59 PM
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IMO Unique is called "the classic .45 Colt Powder" because back when the day it was the only powder available other than 2400 for that caliber.
If you like the accuracy and results you get from Unique but want a cleaner powder try using Hodgdon Universal instead. That powder closely matches the performance of Unique without any of the bad you can get from Unique. I'm happy with the results Universal delivers. I use 3 powders for the .45 Colt, W231, Unique and HS-6. All work well for what I want to achieve with that particular load.
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