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Old 04-16-2010, 06:44 PM
R Cubed R Cubed is offline
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Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy  
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Default Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy

Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy

Introduction:

There are posts on this forum often asking for recommendation for self defense and practice rounds in a given handgun. I chose a self defense round and worked to build practice rounds that provide the same felt recoil as the defense rounds. This way I could practice with what I shoot performance wise. And, save money as my self defense rounds are $23.00 for a box of twenty. I can build my own rounds for far less. The problem I had to mitigate was using 158 grain rounds, which I have in plenty, and the 135 grain rounds of the defense rounds. The test revolver is a S&W 640-3. I needed to find a charge that yielded a Muzzle Energy (Me) with a 158 gn RN as the Gold Dots do with a 135 gn bullet.

The Math

• Muzzle energy is calculated by the formula E=MV2/450400 for the imperial system.
• M is bullet mass in grains or grams (depending on the UOM, 0 < M < 2000.00 grains or 130 grama)
• V is the bullet velocity in ft/sec ( 0 < V < 5000.00 fp/sec or 1500 m/sec)
• The constant 450400 comes from 7000 (grains in a pound) multiplied by (g=32.17) by 2.
• 2000 comes from 1000 (grams in kg ) multiplied by 2
(note: equations and related data above download from the internet - I did not record the source URL)

* I used the data from Speer God Dots with this formula and verified the equation.

This article will address finding your own practice rounds that give similar results as your defense rounds. There is some math involved not beyond basic algebra and the use of a spreadsheet such as Excel. Knowledge of statistical analysis will make the process easier but not required beyond standard Mean, Standard Deviation, and middle functions in Excel. The muzzle energy formula is solved of velocity (as bullet mass and energy are fixed) and set into the spread sheet for easy work.

Any work such as this must be controlled. Testing needs to be designed for control to ensure the outcome is repeatable. Any and all variations must be controlled and accounted for valid experimentation else your wasting your time and resource.

Test Equipment Set-up

A Chronograph is necessary. I use a Chrony Beta. I also use an old camera tripod to mound the chronograph on. I sometimes use a folding table and bench to support a bench rest and to sit at. This can be time consuming and I like to be comfortable when I can. I use a 100 foot tape measure to set the chronograph 15ft from the table edge, and my target at 25 yards (if I am shooting at a target for grouping also). I control this set-up each time I do gather data to insure exacting and controlled test parameters. I load at least ten (10) rounds to test as this is a good sample size.

Building the test rounds

I guess I am anal somewhat. As mentioned before, everything is controlled. I used Winchester 38sp cases. I used the same cases from start to finish. All cases are tumble in a Lyman tumbler over night. Initial case preparation required all cases to be trimmed to the same length. I trimmed the cases to 1.149 inches. This value was chosen from the 48th Lyman Reloading Manual as the length they used. I use a Hornady Trimmer. I found this unit gives repeatable results without constant measuring of the cases and adjusting the trimmer. The primer pockets are clean after de-capping each time.

The charges are trickled using a Lyman trickler into a Hornady Balance Scale. (I do not like digital scales for this work – it is because of the hysteresis of the readouts). The scale sits on a leveled granite stone and is check at “zero” and calibrated at the charge weight. There is no tolerance in charge weight – the scale either balances or it does not. The charge is adjusted until the scale balances each time.

The bullets are seated to the same depth and verified with a (recently) calibrated dial caliper. (I use a dial caliper for the same reason I use a balance scale. As with the charge there is no tolerance. If the bullet is not seated deep enough, the press and die are adjusted until it is correctly seated. If it is seated too deep, the round is taken apart and redone. I use RCBS dies and a Lee single stage press. I finish up with a Lee Factory Crimp die and verify my over-all length, else it gets redone. Needless to say;

I control what I can, mitigate to minimize the effects of what I cannot control and I have found I have repeatable results.

The Test Results

Below is a table constructed of the data collected from each outing.

3.5gn 4.1gn 4.6gn 4.7gn
620.40 648.70 756.50 861.60
581.90 662.80 795.00 810.50
592.40 729.60 837.00 865.20
529.00 677.50 826.20 808.50
638.70 671.40 781.80 855.80
559.10 691.00 786.20 831.00
543.50 701.10 846.60 844.90
500.40 701.10 780.80
516.20 855.40

Mean 564.62 685.40 804.19 832.29
StDev46.67 25.62 33.02 30.11
Range138.30 80.90 90.10 84.40
Median570.50 684.25 795.00 837.95


Mv 588 691 808 836

Discussion of the data

You will note that there are less than 10 samples in two of the test – these are the result of issues with the chronograph not reset – a malfunction between user and the machine at the brain. I use a program called “PointBlank” to find the muzzle velocity – I adjusted the program in velocity until the velocity at my test distant equaled the same in the program. This is that difference. The spread sheet makes it easy to find the mean and other stuff to consider. I started with only the first two (2) samples at 3.5 and 4.1. This data was inputted into a spread sheet for linear regression analysis (don’t ask!!!) From the results of that analysis I figured I need a charge of 4.63 grains to yield the results I want. Therefore I build rounds at 4.6 grains and 4.7 grains respectively.
The next two (2) columns reflect the test results of those rounds. A table of the results for Mv and Me follows;

Charge 3.5 4.1 4.6 4.7
Mv 588 691 808 836
Me 121 167 229 245

My goal of a round with 222 ft-lbs of Me is realized with 4.6 gains of charge. It is close enough for me. I am happy!!! I have a practice round that emulates a Gold Dot round at a much lower cost. It just took patience and time to find it.

A spreadsheet chart of the four tests is included.

I had fun and will repeat this process for a 45acp - I hope this helps clear some concern on how to build rounds.

Regards,

Rick
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Last edited by R Cubed; 04-17-2010 at 01:21 AM. Reason: add foot note
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:03 PM
HKSmith HKSmith is offline
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Excellent post! I also like to practice with rounds that duplicate the "feel" of my carry rounds. However, rounds of equal muzzle energy with different bullet weights will not have the same recoil energy - the heavier bullet will produce greater recoil energy for the same muzzle energy as a lighter bullet load. This is because recoil energy is proportional to the square of the momentum (M x V) of the ejecta (bullet + powder). This means that you need a lower muzzle energy with your 158 grain bullets to reproduce the recoil energy of your 135 grain carry loads.

Another way of looking at this is that total energy (recoil energy of the gun + muzzle energy of the ejecta) is shared in inverse proportion to their weights. Thus, at a given muzzle energy a greater fraction will go into recoil energy at higher bullet weights. The ultimate example (fortunately non-existent) would be a gun and bullet that had the same weight - the gun and bullet would then have the same energy - an unpleasant situation for the shooter!
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:42 PM
R Cubed R Cubed is offline
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Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSmith View Post
Excellent post! I also like to practice with rounds that duplicate the "feel" of my carry rounds. However, rounds of equal muzzle energy with different bullet weights will not have the same recoil energy - the heavier bullet will produce greater recoil energy for the same muzzle energy as a lighter bullet load. This is because recoil energy is proportional to the square of the momentum (M x V) of the ejecta (bullet + powder). This means that you need a lower muzzle energy with your 158 grain bullets to reproduce the recoil energy of your 135 grain carry loads.

Another way of looking at this is that total energy (recoil energy of the gun + muzzle energy of the ejecta) is shared in inverse proportion to their weights. Thus, at a given muzzle energy a greater fraction will go into recoil energy at higher bullet weights. The ultimate example (fortunately non-existent) would be a gun and bullet that had the same weight - the gun and bullet would then have the same energy - an unpleasant situation for the shooter!
Thank you - All valid points you have made - The Gold Dots have a Mv of ~860fps and a Me of 222ft-lbs. The rounds I worked for do have a Mv lower that the Gold Dots at about ~795fps and produce near same Me. The issue I looked at is, according to Newton, net force equals zero. Force in one direction equals force in the opposite direction, for the object to remain at rest. When I shoot I want to remain at rest.

So my thinking is, No matter if its Iron Mike Tyson, or PeeWee Herman, hits you with 222ft-lbs of energy on point instantly, you should realize the same effect.

I will admit my science is not exact. I would need a force gauge to measure ‘felt’ energy for both the Gold Dots and my rounds to tweak the rounds to an exact match. I am confident the reading as seen now would be very near the same, and, any error would be statistically non-influential (knowing that I am using the same firearm, and I have not changed physically).

For me, the most stressing part of this task, was not shooting my chronograph
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Old 04-17-2010, 08:04 PM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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Couple of points:

1. The ME of the bullet is not the entire measure of recoil impluse.
Here is a handy calculator that takes the other variables into account.
Recoil Calculator
(By the way, Newton's second law applies to FORCE being equal, not energy, in an action/reaction. F = ma. That's why if you try to jump from a rowboat to the dock, the light boat zips away and the man goes into the drink.)

2. Bullets of different weights will have different points of impact due to different dwell times in the barrel, which is often more disruptive to practice that small differences in recoil impulse. A smaller bullet going fast strikes lower than a heavy bullet going slow.

Last edited by OKFC05; 04-17-2010 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:56 AM
R Cubed R Cubed is offline
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Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy Dissertation on Building Practice Hand-loaded Rounds for Muzzle Energy  
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I weighted 5 rounds of each type, found the mean with a spread sheet, substracted out the published bullet weight. The remainder is the weight of the charge, primer, and case. I used that value in the recoil calculator. The report is attached. Number 'bout even!

The ultimate test would be to shoot a ramdom mix and note my reaction and shot placement. But, Darn! I suffer from CHS - Can't Hit Squat


What do you think?
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Last edited by R Cubed; 04-18-2010 at 04:48 AM. Reason: correct spellyn
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Old 04-18-2010, 09:13 AM
HKSmith HKSmith is offline
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Recoil energy is determined by the mass of what's coming out of the barrel and its velocity, not the mass of what's left behind. You added the weight of the case and primer, which caused your recoil energy calculations to be too high.

The simplest way to calculate what velocity you need to maintain the same recoil energy when you change bullet weight is to keep the momentum (M x V) constant, since recoil energy is proportional to the square of the momentum of the ejecta (bullet + powder). For your example if you have a 135 grain bullet at 822 ft/sec and you change to a 158 grain bullet, the new velocity would be 822 x (135/158) or 702 ft/sec. I didn't include the powder weight to simplify things; also at these powder to bullet weight ratios it's a very minor factor. Note that although the recoil energy will be the same for these 2 loads, the muzzle energy of the 158 grain bullet load will be lower.
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:05 PM
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Those Gold Dots are one harrd bullet to take apart - my bullet puller did not even move the bullet out of the case one iota after many strikes onto a wood block wiht the inerta hammer thing-ie. So I will email, call, write Speer and see if they will give me the charge weight. I did see one website that had that data but I did not want to pay $14.95 for it. Today I cannot locate it. Darn!

I scanned the reference on this goup for the book "Understanding Firearms Ballistics" by Rinker (for those interested in this stuff)

Cool huh?
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:41 PM
HKSmith HKSmith is offline
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Originally Posted by R Cubed View Post
Those Gold Dots are one harrd bullet to take apart - my bullet puller did not even move the bullet out of the case one iota after many strikes onto a wood block wiht the inerta hammer thing-ie. So I will email, call, write Speer and see if they will give me the charge weight. I did see one website that had that data but I did not want to pay $14.95 for it. Today I cannot locate it. Darn!

I scanned the reference on this goup for the book "Understanding Firearms Ballistics" by Rinker (for those interested in this stuff)

Cool huh?
I believe commercial ammo uses an adhesive substance to keep the bullets in place and it may not be possible to overcome this with an inertial puller. Given that the powder weight in .38 Special contributes relatively little to the recoil energy, you could just use 5 or 6 grains as the nominal powder weight without being too far off.

I'd be interested to hear what Speer says about this. They're easy to contact and have answered questions for me on the phone about their products. I have a feeling they won't disclose their powder charge weights to customers. Also, the powder charge may vary from lot to lot depending on what powder they're using. The commercial manufacturers have access to powders that aren't available to reloaders.
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Old 04-19-2010, 11:07 AM
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I sent Speer a request of the data this morning from their 'Ask Us" page. I noted that a Speer power charge of 7.5gn give the exact same data as the SWCs. Using a 5gn charge provides energies within one (1) ft-lb, and at 6 gn, I is within 0.5ft-lbs. I wonder if I, or anyone else could 'feel' the difference.
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Old 04-19-2010, 12:18 PM
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I sent Speer a request of the data this morning from their 'Ask Us" page. I noted that a Speer power charge of 7.5gn give the exact same data as the SWCs. Using a 5gn charge provides energies within one (1) ft-lb, and at 6 gn, I is within 0.5ft-lbs. I wonder if I, or anyone else could 'feel' the difference.

I don't think Elmer Keith himself could tell the difference!
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:27 PM
R Cubed R Cubed is offline
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I heard for Speer today! The email said they use different powders for pressure and velocity to build the bullets. It also stated "for the sake of argument, try 6.8 grns" That value puts me even closer - to within a 1/3ft-lb.

Thank you Speer-bullets for o your excellent customer service. I really did not expect them to report out that data.
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Old 04-21-2010, 08:24 PM
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Rick, nice of you to have put this treatise up as a reference for folks who are interested in duplicating factory ammo "feel" in their practice ammo. I imagine there are a lot of people in that category.
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Old 04-21-2010, 09:13 PM
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Rick, nice of you to have put this treatise up as a reference for folks who are interested in duplicating factory ammo "feel" in their practice ammo. I imagine there are a lot of people in that category.
I guess its my Technology and Eng'r background that causes me to approach problems in this way. If you cannot duplicate test results there are errors somewhere. One of my (unspoken) goals here was to show how I set tests up, and how the work documentation can be done - I've done many test like this, all the data collected is in the binder. I can go back and redo any of those tests and get the same results again - if I set them up the same.

I had a good time with it. It kept me occupied while in the job search mode and I learned a thing or two.

Thanks Erich - I miss New Mexico, be safe.

Rick - the Rio Rancho Refuge
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Old 04-23-2010, 08:39 PM
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Very impressive and well explained. In your written introduction, shouldn't the brand of powder used be mentioned? I see in your chart, Unique. Is this what was used?
I have graded many papers of the years so I will have to deduct for that omission in the body of your paper..

I always wondered if someone like youself had ever done such work on most of the major self defense loads and compiled it in a handbook of sorts. I have the Speer manual,and some Speer GD or Hornady XTP bullets, but of course do not know what powder they use. It would be great to duplicate them exactly.
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:59 PM
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Very impressive and well explained. In your written introduction, shouldn't the brand of powder used be mentioned? I see in your chart, Unique. Is this what was used?
I have graded many papers of the years so I will have to deduct for that omission in the body of your paper..

I always wondered if someone like youself had ever done such work on most of the major self defense loads and compiled it in a handbook of sorts. I have the Speer manual,and some Speer GD or Hornady XTP bullets, but of course do not know what powder they use. It would be great to duplicate them exactly.
Thank you... Know that I did receive a technical writing award years ago when I was on my game... so much for the past. I did this work for myself then decided to write the report. You can take points off to for no peer reviewed articles cited, no other sources cited, other that the email for Speer too. So I could go back to the notes and re-write it in either true APA format, my favorite, or in MLA form. ' naaaa!!!~

If you want to duplicate the GoldDots or XTPs, you can follow the process I used, or dig with into the research mode to discern how the products were built. I wanted an inexpensive practice round for recoil muscle training. I used publsihede Speer data in a ballistic software package I have to find that beyond my shooting distance, the bullets track near the same tajectory (within this old man's area of concern).

The new scieentifical term, "at'l do-it" works form me
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Old 04-26-2010, 09:31 AM
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As I am "OCD" I felt I had to bring that to you attention But you know I was kidding. Far more work than I would be willing to do, so "Works for me" also.

I just buy the bullets and load them from the manual.

For carry i use the pre made ones.
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Old 04-26-2010, 10:16 AM
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As I am "OCD" I felt I had to bring that to you attention But you know I was kidding. Far more work than I would be willing to do, so "Works for me" also.

I just buy the bullets and load them from the manual.

For carry i use the pre made ones.
I knew you were joshin' - Me's da old man,no teeth, hair, money, and lost my job so what am I to do with myself? Watch TV?
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