45colt Reloading questions

[hastings]

I have just started reloading, after a 25 year hiatus (raising kids, focusing on job, etc.). I didn't start shooting the 45colt until five years ago, and have not worked up a suitable load for each of my revolvers, yet. I've sorted thru many of the threads on 45colt reloads on this and other sights, but didn't see any that answered the specific questions I have. Here they are.

I have been using a 265gr gas-check bullet from "Ranger Rick". I like the design, and they seem pretty uniform. I've been trying loads with 2400, and winchester primers, shot out of a model 25 Mountain Gun. I've only reloaded a hundred, with 16gr of 2400 as the highest load. I have been unable to find Unique locally, but have a good supply of Alliant and IMR powder at the local gunshop.

I would like to keep the loads to under 950fps. I have a Ruger Vaquero and a BFR 454 for really stout loads, so I am looking for a reliable, potent but not gun-jarring load for woods carry.

Here is the problem I have found. The bullet weight, construction, primer brand, and powder type vary so wildly that finding data is confusing. One chart gives no 265gr bullet loadings. One lists 2400 only for other weights, or for jacketed bullets. Another lists several nearly identical loads with varying powders with no indication of the benefits of one over the other.

Can anyone offer a few reasonable loads based around a 265gr lswc gas-check bullet using 2400, and/or another few Alliant or IMR powders that would work well in the S&W 25 MG, and offer decent accuracy at around 900-950fps? I don't mind working up loadings myself, but with the wealth of experience available in the forum members I'd like to find a good starting point to work from.

Thanks for the help.
Hastings

[Dale53]

Brian Pearce did a fine article on the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet in a past Handloader. That bullet actually casts out to 285 grs. I would guess that any data for the RCBS bullet would be quite close to your needs. If you are interested, send me you email address in a private message (and anyone else that is interested) and I'll Email you a copy of the article. There is a lot of loading data for different gun strengths.

FWIW
Dale53

[max]

For years I have used 7.0 of Unique and a cast swc. However, because of the size of the case, I am thinking I should go to 8. I would start there and see what you think.

[David Sinko]

I have shot thousands of rounds of 255 gr. SWC with 8.8 grs. of Winchester 231 through a 4" Redhawk. Velocity was 945 FPS. For some reason I settled on this load, though I'm not sure why. Maybe because I had so much 231. I never bothered with Unique and I don't think 2400 will be a good choice at this velocity. That load accomplished practically everything I needed to do with a revolver, including field use, concealed carry and even competitive shooting. Recoil was very manageable in the Redhawk and 8.8 grs. is not a max load. I also shot this load out of a 25-7 that I owned at one time so it's perfectly satisfactory in the S&Ws.

Dave Sinko

[Dan Cash]

Find some Unique or 231. 2400 is a wonderful powder but not much good for the .45 Colt unless you are trying to make a .454 Casul out of it. 8 to 8.8 gr. Unique under a 265 gr. slug will do every thing you want a .45 Colt to do.

[cp1969]

Elmer Keith's old load of 18.0 gr. of 2400, standard primer, underneath a 255 gr. plain base semiwadcutter was safe in old Colt single actions. I would imagine your Mountain Gun is as strong as one of those, so 16 gr. certainly ought to be safe. I shoot 20 gr. in my '75 vintage Blackhawk and have for ages.

As someone else mentioned, though, there are better choices for standard pressure loads than 2400. You can easily get the same velocity using half the powder if you use Unique, Universal Clays, 231, etc.

[Gun 4 Fun]

I can tell you this-

In my 4" 25-5, 18.5 grains of 2400 gives 1050 fps @ 15' from the muzzle across my Oehler 35P, so 17 grains should get you very close to your goal. I was also using a 265 grain cast swc (Lyman 454424). They don't have a gas check though, and normally a gas check will raise pressure somewhat. I also have used 12.5 grains of HS-6 for right at 1000 fps, and 9 grains of 231 should also come very close to the velocity you specified.

[BUFF]

My cast Lyman 454424 has no gas check and usually weighs about 260 grains sized (0.454") and lubed. 8.5 grains of Unique about duplicates the ballistics of the traditional .45 Colt factory loads from W-W and R-P but with a more effective flat faced SWC bullet, giving about 840 to 880 fps from my guns. But you can't get Unique.

7.1 grains of Winchester 231 powder with these same bullets yeilds about 875 fps from my 6 inch Model 25-5.

I would really try to locate one of these powders. They are great with heavy cast lead bullets in the 800-950 fps range you seem to be looking for.

[Snapping Twig]

7g W231 FTW!

8g of Unique is also a nice round.

[hastings]

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate the information. I am going to track down some Unique, and 231, and do some comparison loading. I need to get some cci 300 primers as well. I found that 16gr of 2400 felt about right, but didn't produce great accuracy in the 25. It sounds like most people are doing better with Unique and 231.

I found that 19gr of 2400 with the same 265gr bullet produced decent groups with poa = poi with my Ruger Vaquero, and I normally carry the Ruger with a Double Tap 335gr. WFNGC Hardcast pushing 1300 fps. I haven't opened the throats, yet, so I am hopeful for really good groups when I get the throats reamed.

I need to get a set of 45acp dies so I can load some 255 grain 45autorim rounds. If anyone has info related to this loading, I'd be eager to hear from you. I read that bullets over 255gr in fixed sight 45acp revolvers (I have the 22-4 Thunder Ranch) tend to hit high and that the sights are regulated for 200-230gr bullets. Has anyone loaded 265 or 270gr keith-style rounds in their S&W revolvers? Can heavier bullets like the 255gr, or 270gr be loaded in 45acp cases? If I could load a 265gr round at 900 fps in the 22-4, my 45colt might not see much woods time.

Thanks again, all y'all.

Thanks again.

I

[David Sinko]

I load a cast 255 gr. SWC in ACP brass with Power Pistol and get 920 FPS out of my 3" 625. If you want the exact load I could look it up for you. It is basically the equivalent of .45 Super, which is also safe in .45 ACP revolvers. You can use the same load with Auto Rim brass and a roll crimp but the taper crimp has always worked fine for me. I find that point of impact is not high in the 3" barrel. I did try a 265 gr. WFN (I think it was a Cast Performance) but they did not want to chamber in one of my three 625s, so I abandoned that project. The 255 gr. bullets have always been very consistent and accuracte for my in my .45 ACP revolvers. In fact they are so versatile that I don't use my .45 Colt Redhawk anymore unless I need a very severe load.

Dave Sinko

[Dale53]

Hastings;
You might be interested in this thread:

NOE 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim - Cast Boolits

Dale53

[old tanker]

For the classic black powder cartridges, that is, 250-255 grain bullets in .45 Colt, 200 grain bullets in .44-40 and 180 grain bullets in .38-40 8.5 grains Unique is a good place to start. In a revolver that will handle them, the Lyman 454190 on top of 40 grains of 3F will impress you with its performance and accuracy.

[hastings]

Wow, this is a very informative thread. I would love to see your actual load data, David Sinko. And I found the referenced thread you linked, Dale53, very helpful. I still need to get a set of 45acp dies, but my mission will now be to work up a load similar to David Sinko's. I really enjoy 45colt in my Mountain Gun, but I like fixed sight square-butt N-frames. If I can push a 255gr keith-style bullet at 900fps or better (after carefully working up to these velocities) I'll have to put the MG in the safe and start carrying the 22-4 in the woods. I was on the cusp of ordering a bunch of 270gr bullets, but I think I'll shift to the 255gr ones. That way they can do double duty as 45acp or 45colt fodder.

Thanks again to everyone. Even with various reloading manuals it can be difficult to find info on non-typical loads, and having a knowledgeable group of people available sure saves time and powder.

Hastings

[gwalchmai]

Here is Alliant's load data:
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

I shoot a Bear Creek 265gr SWC out of my 625MG. I use 5.5gr of Solo-1000 for a very sweet load that's dead-on out to 25 yards.

ETA: I agree that 7-8gr of Unique is an excellent load as well.

[three-five-seven]

I have to throw in my 2 cents. I had a 25-5 with a 6" barrel. I used 9.0 grains of Unique with a 255 grain Keith? ( it looked like one) sized to .454 diameter. It was fantastic on bowling pins as I used to shoot
our informal matches at a club I used to belong to. It was very gentle recoil wise and very effective. Other guys used to shoot full house .44s and the kitchen sink to do the same job. None of these persons shot the "big time" pin matches where rules were actually observed. In fact one character used to call for an alibi if his 1911 jammed or any of his other bullseye guns for that matter. Dont get upset 1911 fans.

Some people cant load good ammo or they have to improve on Mr. Brownings design in ways he never dreamed.

[cp1969]

Originally Posted by three-five-seven

I have to throw in my 2 cents. I had a 25-5 with a 6" barrel. I used 9.0 grains of Unique with a 255 grain Keith? ( it looked like one) sized to .454 diameter. It was fantastic on bowling pins as I used to shoot
our informal matches at a club I used to belong to. It was very gentle recoil wise and very effective. Other guys used to shoot full house .44s and the kitchen sink to do the same job. None of these persons shot the "big time" pin matches where rules were actually observed. In fact one character used to call for an alibi if his 1911 jammed or any of his other bullseye guns for that matter. Dont get upset 1911 fans.

Some people cant load good ammo or they have to improve on Mr. Brownings design in ways he never dreamed.

I used to use a Model 25 for bowling pin shoots, too. A friend talked me out of it and I replaced it with a .45 auto. A sad mistake on my part. I've never warmed up to the auto.

[hastings]

I picked up some Unique, and finally found some CCI primers. The 45acp dies arrive tomorrow, and 255gr keith-style lswc bullets should be here by the weekend if I'm lucky. I have some Hornady 250gr XTP bullets that work well in my Mountain Gun. I'm assuming I could give them a shot in my 22-4 along with the lswc bullets. Has anyone tried these bullets in this weight in a 45acp revolver? I'm sure they won't open consistently at 850-900fps, but they feel pretty rugged and would still punch a big hole even if they didn't open up. I prefer a nice, wide meplat over a hollow point, but I'm in the mood to experiment.

Thanks
Hastings

[hastings]

I'm still waiting on the 45acp dies, but in the meantime I fine tuned a decent load for the Mountain Gun. 255gr RNFP (with a very broad flat point) over 8.8gr of Unique, using starline brass and CCI 300 primers. This load is very accurate in my MG. More accurate than I can shoot. It clocks in at 910 fps average.

I tried a wide range of loads starting at 7.8 and working my way up. It's amazing, everything up to 8.7 grains of Unique, with all other components being identical, turned in mediocre groups while 8.8 cut the groups size down by more than 2/3. Just .1 grains made all the difference. I have a hard time metering Unique with the stock RCBS powder dispenser, but I carefully weighted every charge for the final loads. I was weighing every fifth charge of powder, and the difference in grains was as much as .15-.2 . With .1gr making a big difference in accuracy, I decided to carefully weigh each charge to see how big a difference it made. It closed the groups from 3" to 1.25". I tried the suggested methods of getting the RCBS dispenser to perform consistently, but it still varied more than I wanted it to.

Now I need to sight the revolver in for 40-50 yards. That's about as close as the coyotes get when they trail you out of the woods/fields around here. I'm going to take some 24x36 sheets of paper and plot some targets for out to 50 yards to see how I can do. With my eyes, 20 yards is a challenge, but if I can keep all six shots inside a 6" ring at 50 yards that'll do for coyotes. Thanks for all the great advice and loading info. I appreciate the help.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by hastings

Can anyone offer a few reasonable loads based around a 265gr lswc gas-check bullet using 2400, and/or another few Alliant or IMR powders that would work well in the S&W 25 MG, and offer decent accuracy at around 900-950fps? I don't mind working up loadings myself, but with the wealth of experience available in the forum members I'd like to find a good starting point to work from.

Thanks for the help.
Hastings

You can always use heavy bullet data for lighter bullets & work up. I shoot a 270grLSWCHP out of my RBH. With 16gr of 2400, I am running around 980fps in the 4 5/8" bbl. The same bullet o/ 9gr of Unique does 970fps. Both are very accurate & show good terminal performance in wetpack. If I need pure penetration, just swap out to a LSWC.

[454PB]

Just so you know......

Hodgdon HP-38 is the same powder as WW-231.

While Unique is a wonderful powder in .45 Colt, it doesn't meter well.

I prefer Bluedot, which meters well and is slower burning than Unique, so requires a slightly heavier charge for the same velocity.

[cp1969]

When you say Unique doesn't meter well, what kind of variation are you getting? If you're trying to throw, say, an 8.5 gr load, you get 8.5 plus or minus what?

Back when I single-stage reloaded the .45 Colt, I'd take an Unique filled RCBS powder measure out of it's stand and position and cycle it over each case in a loading block full of primed cases. When I was done, the amount of powder in each case looked awfully consistent and although I didn't have access to a chronograph, it produced some very accurate ammunition.

[ArchAngelCD]

If you want a better metering Unique give Universal a try. It's very close to Unique and it's cleaner too.

I use both W231/HP-38 and HS-6 for most of my .45 Colt ammo using a 250/255gr hard cast bullet.

[hastings]

I have loaded a couple hundred 45colt and 45acp rounds over the past two weeks, using 2400 (45colt) and Unique (both). I have noticed the poor metering charachteristic. I get about a .15 grain variation at most, so I am not pushing the charges to close to the max. to ensure I don't get a max or higher load. All of the advice and anecdotes have been very helpful. I'll have to pick up some W231 to try. The Unique is very sooty and produces a lot of smoke.

I found that 6.9gr of Unique behind a 255gr LRNFP .452 bullet in my 22-4 45acp gives me around 925fps with no signs of pressure and is still well below the 7.5gr load Elmer Keith used. Because I favor fixed sights, I am now leaning more toward the 22-4 than my 45colt 25-13 MG (especially since I get the same performance for roughly 2 grains less powder). With the load I mentioned, poi is at poa. I'll pick up some Blue Dot and W231 this weekend and give them a try thru the chrono when I get a chance.

By the way, I loaded some Ranger Rick 700gr bullets for my brother's 500s&w mag BFR, last weekend. At 1250 fps, they went thru just about anything we shot them at, and were accurate. The recoil was absolutely brutal. My brother loved them, but I'll stick with 45colt/45acp and some occasional 454casull. Just thought I'd mention the 700gr stuff as an example of extreme heavy weight bullets. Good for nothing unless you're hunting Grizzly or dangerous African game, neither of which seem to abound in Vermont. My brother is a recoil junky, while I like moderate, traditional cartridges that don't rely on high pressure/velocity.

[454PB]

When I use Unique, I use the "double tap" method, meaning the charge handle is raised briskly, then that "tap" at the end of the travel repeated. By using that method, I can keep an 8.5 gr. charge between 8.4 and 8.6 grs.

I'm a fan of ball powders generally.....better metering and long (infinite for me) shelf life. I'm still using HS-5 that I bought back in 1976, and it produces the same results it did when new.

However, the Hercules and Alliant flake powders sometimes do a better job, and aren't as hard to ignite as some of the slower ball powders.

Bluedot is probably my favorite, producing 90% of full velocity loads in everything from 9mm to .454 Casull.

One thing I've learned is that Bluedot does not like load pressures below about 14K psi, so it needs to be kept in the upper pressures for complete burning.

It also has a reputation of erratic pressure spikes in extreme cold weather. I have not seen that in using it for 35 years, but then again, I seldom shoot at temperatures below -15 degrees.

I even use Bluedot in my reduced cast bullet loads for rifles.....it really shines in .35 Remington.

[gwalchmai]

Unique meters fine in my Dillon powder measure.

[ChuckS1]

I always keep my RCBS measure at least 2/3 full when I measure Unique. That and the double tap with the handle seems to have solved the metering inconsistency issue for me.

[hastings]

I've been using the tap method with my RCBS dispenser, and it definitely reduces the discrepancy load to load. I still have some variation, but I've simply reduced the load I normally use by the amount of the discrepancy so I shouldn't get anything higher than what I want.

I reamed the chambers on my Ruger Vaquero 45colt and 45acp cylinders to .4525, yesterday. It greatly improved the grouping with both rounds. My normal 45acp load pushing a 255gr .452 RNFP at 950fps is more accurate in the Vaquero than the same bullet at 908fps in a 45colt case. Now I'll need to work up a heavy 45colt load for the Vaquero. With the 45acp loads, it's hard to miss what you're shooting at. Ya gotta love that.

I'm amazed at the potential of the 45acp. It seems much more efficient than the 45colt cartridge provided your velocity envelope goes no higher than 1000fps and your bullet weight stays below 300gr. Powder charges seem to burn cleaner, velocity is more consistent, and powder charges are lower for the same bullet at the same velocity.

Now I need to have Dave Clay convert a 45colt Marlin 1894 Cowboy to 45acp. I've seen one of his conversions on another forum, and it looks great. The only problem is the barrel was cut to 16.5 inches with an abreviated tube, so the tube only held 10 rounds. With a Cowboy model with the 20 inch barrel, I would think you could hold at least 3 to 4 more rounds. A 14 round 45cal. levergun would be a great companion to a Thunder Ranch 22-4, or 45acp Vaquero.

[Dale53]

Brian Pearce has an excellent article on reloading the .45 Auto Rim with heavy bullets in Handloader #254 (August-September 2008).

Wolfe Publishing sells back issues either by the year or single issues on CD.

He has a number of loads for the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet in the Auto Rim.

For the .45 Colt fan, his article on the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet in the Handloader #246 (April-May 2007) covers different revolver strength levels with loads for each. This may well be the best all 'round bullet for the .45 Colt, ever.

I am waiting on my MiHec clone of the .45-270-SAA Cramer style two cavity hollow point mould (should be shipped in a week or so) and I can't wait to try it in my Rugers and also will run a few in my 625 .45 ACP's.

Dale53

[sonny]

These loads worked fine in my Colt New Frontier .45Colt.
All are hardcast lead bullets.
I only listed the milder loads.
Colt New Frontier .45C. 7 1/2" barrel

Rounds Notes Cast bullet powder grains fps (low to high fps (avg) M.A.D. % Dev. Recoil Bullets Case
(from mean)

5 rds 272 gr Alliant 2400 17 977-1015 997 16 fps 1.6 mild (pleasant) Leadhead

5 rds 272 gr Alliant 2400 17.7 1100-1140 1123 11.8 fps 1.05 medium Leadhead

5 rds 255 gr Alliant 2400 17 908-976 964 22 2.3 medium Moyers Starline

5 rds 255 gr Alliant 2400 17 989-1059 1020 15.8 1.5 medium Moyers Federal

Weight of one primed Federal case = 128.9 gr Weight of one primed Starline case = 114.5 gr

Powder charges within +/- 0.1 grains. Checked with RCBS digital scale and OHAUS balance scale.

One gram (metric) = 15.432 grains (U.S.)
7000 grains in one avoirdupois pound



The "Mean absolute deviation" is a measure of the consistency of velocity from one shot to another. A lower "MAD" is likelyto result in smaller target groups than a larger "MAD."

[bgrafsr]

I load 255 grain SWC's in front of 7.5 grains of Unique and really like it. I shoot them in my 2nd generation Colt SAA with 4 3/4 inch barrel.