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  #1  
Old 06-13-2010, 08:41 PM
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Default Loaded some .44 Magnum with H110 and standard primers...

...by accident. I meant to use magnum primers, but installed CCI standards.

Did I screw up? I live in Texas, and it's hotter than Hades right now, so I suspect it ill be fine. I was just wondering what the usual difference is in ES and velocity for other guys.

Load is 23 grs. H110 with 240 gr. Gold Dot in new Winchester brass.

Thanks Gents.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:46 PM
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You should be fine. The loads might be a little more erratic and down a little bit in velocity but you probably won't be able to tell the difference unless you're shooting out of a Ransom Rest.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:24 PM
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Please post your results. I have been wondering about this kind of scenario myself since I don't have any magnum pistol primers in my inventory right now.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:11 PM
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Supposedly the .44 likes standard primers better.

Read it a few places and have on one instance seen evidence supporting it.

Edit..

cp1969, the velocity is'nt down near as much as you would think.... only 100FPS or so.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:19 PM
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That's why I said he probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

The only experience I have with the standard vs. magnum primer effect was in my .357. I worked up a load of 9.0 gr Unique with 125 gr. JHP. I accidentally substituted magnum primers in one batch and they were then too hot.

In the .44 I use standard primers but I also use 2400.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:21 PM
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I'll shoot a few next weekend to see how they group. My baseline is some loaded with 24 H-110 and mag primers.

I gave away my chrono so I don't have a way to check the velocity. I'm sure they'll be fast enough to get a speeding ticket tho'!
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:26 AM
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Been loading H110/W296 since 1983 and not once have I used a magnum primer.

Read an article by Skeeter Skelton talking about non magnum primers giving more consistent results, tried it, it worked, never looked back.

.357 and .44 mag.

Just because Casull sent me their data indicating a CCI SRM primer, I use those of the .454.
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:15 PM
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Funny stuff, H-110/296.
In my Lyman manual, 23.5 min. and 24.5 max of H-110 over a 240 gr. JHP.
Half a grain less (min and max) for 296.

Loaded 50 at an even 24 gr. of H-110. Figured right in the middle of min and max oughtta be a good start.

After the first shot out of my 629 Classic DX, I ejected the case to have a look. Primer completely flatted.
...hmmm...
Fired 2 more. Primers flat as Kansas.
...hmmm...
Got away from those and shot up a bunch of 240 JHP's over 11 gr. of Unique. No problems.

When I got home, I grabbed my dammit aka bullet puller. 5 different times, pulled bullets and weighed the charges. Dead-nuts 24 grains.
These rounds were loaded old school with a balance scale, trickler, and Lee Hand Press, allowing total attention to detail @ every stage.

Curious.
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:20 PM
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Were there any other pressure signs? H110/W296 makes for some high pressure loads, and my primers often flatten out. However, they are not over max pressure.

While one batch of loads with standard primers might be ok, that's no excuse for poor loading practices. H110/W296 call for magnum primers and they should be used as intended.
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Old 06-14-2010, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon88 View Post
Were there any other pressure signs? H110/W296 makes for some high pressure loads, and my primers often flatten out. However, they are not over max pressure.

While one batch of loads with standard primers might be ok, that's no excuse for poor loading practices. H110/W296 call for magnum primers and they should be used as intended.
Nope, no other signs. That's what had me scratchin' my head.
It would suck majorly to shoot my 629 Classic DX loose just due to my own ignorance. That's why I quit shooting them until I could find out more than I already knew.
+1 re: magnum primers where specified.
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  #11  
Old 06-14-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beach elvis View Post
Funny stuff, H-110/296.
In my Lyman manual, 23.5 min. and 24.5 max of H-110 over a 240 gr. JHP.
Half a grain less (min and max) for 296.

Loaded 50 at an even 24 gr. of H-110. Figured right in the middle of min and max oughtta be a good start.

After the first shot out of my 629 Classic DX, I ejected the case to have a look. Primer completely flatted.
...hmmm...
Fired 2 more. Primers flat as Kansas.
...hmmm...
Got away from those and shot up a bunch of 240 JHP's over 11 gr. of Unique. No problems.

When I got home, I grabbed my dammit aka bullet puller. 5 different times, pulled bullets and weighed the charges. Dead-nuts 24 grains.
These rounds were loaded old school with a balance scale, trickler, and Lee Hand Press, allowing total attention to detail @ every stage.

Curious.
Beg/borrow a chronograph. Reading primers is a art that by itself is of dubious value. Higher than expected velocity AND flattened primers means something, but "flattened", (which requires a picture posted so the experts can tell if is really flattened), doesn't really mean much.

H110/296 is slow enough that it should be hard to damage your gun. Also, what was your COL? And whose JHP are you using? What primer?
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Old 06-14-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dla View Post
Beg/borrow a chronograph. Reading primers is a art that by itself is of dubious value. Higher than expected velocity AND flattened primers means something, but "flattened", (which requires a picture posted so the experts can tell if is really flattened), doesn't really mean much.

H110/296 is slow enough that it should be hard to damage your gun. Also, what was your COL? And whose JHP are you using? What primer?
Howdy, dla.
OAL was 1.61".
Bullet was 240 gr. Hornady XTP.
CCI magnum LP primers.
By "flattened", I mean the primer edges became SHARP corners. No rollover at the edges whatsoever. Squashed as flat as they could get. For a picture, you can look in Lyman's 48th ed. manual on pg. 61, if you should happen to have a copy. I'm afraid I don't have a digital camera. I'll definately see if I can borrow a chronograph. Great idea.
Thank you very much for your interest, everybody. I can never have too much help.

My apologies to the OP for the inadvertant thread hijack.
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Old 06-14-2010, 06:31 PM
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With just the flattened primers and no other signs, I wouldn't consider the load unsafe. I use W296 in 357 and 44 mag. I know none of the loads are over max pressure based on case extraction, velocity, charge amount, etc, yet the primers flatten out pretty good. They are high pressure certainly, but not over pressure. I have seen similar flattening from hot loads using other powders, from factory ammo, etc.
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Old 06-14-2010, 06:33 PM
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No problem! Let's hear everybody's stories about this combination.

Mt first loads with 24-H110 and 240 Gold Dots had flat primers, like yours, compared to all of the other cases fired that day. That's why I backed off to 23 on this last batch I loaded. 23 is the minimum load on Hodgdon's site so I figured it was ok.
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Old 06-14-2010, 06:55 PM
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The minimum loads for H110/W296 Hodgdon posts on their site are really good, functional loads in the calibers I have tried. If you work toward the max load you get more recoil, noise, and flash, but not nearly enough additional fps to make it worthwhile to me.
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Old 06-14-2010, 08:01 PM
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Question: Winchester primers (WLP and WSP) say "for standard and magnum loads."

Which are they?
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Old 06-14-2010, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregG View Post
I'll shoot a few next weekend to see how they group. My baseline is some loaded with 24 H-110 and mag primers.

I gave away my chrono so I don't have a way to check the velocity. I'm sure they'll be fast enough to get a speeding ticket tho'!
If your not going to shoot them till next weekend, why don't you e-mail Hodgdon and ask them what they think. They have always answered my questions quickly and with a definitive answer. I always use magnum primers with H110/W296 because that is what my load books call for. It's no secret H110/W296 is hard to ignite and the possibility of a squib by not using magnum primers, altho slight, is always there.

23 gr of H110/W296 is my regular load for my M629 and my Ruger carbine using a 240 gr JHP/JSP or XTP. For hunting I bump it up to 23.5. I tried 24 but it wasn't as accurate for me as 23 and 23.5.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:04 PM
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I called CCI this morning and the gentleman I spoke with said that in my climate the worst that will happen is the velocity will be down maybe 100 fps, but the 300 primer will light 23 grs. of H110.

I'm going to use these loads to break the barrel in. I'm wanting to go with cast bullets with this gun, and I'm going to lap it in, then after that finish breaking it in with these jacketed loads, just like I break in a new stainless rifle barrel....shoot one and clean for 10 shots, then shoot five shots, then clean, etc. I want to get the barrel consistent in size and smooth.

The bullet I plan on shooting the most of after that is the .432" 240 WFNGC that Montana Bullets sells, with about 10 grs. of Unique. (My throats measure .4325")

Last edited by GregG; 06-14-2010 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:18 PM
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.432" sounds big. Did you slug your barrel/chambers?
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beach elvis View Post
Howdy, dla.
OAL was 1.61".
Bullet was 240 gr. Hornady XTP.
CCI magnum LP primers.
By "flattened", I mean the primer edges became SHARP corners. No rollover at the edges whatsoever. Squashed as flat as they could get. For a picture, you can look in Lyman's 48th ed. manual on pg. 61, if you should happen to have a copy. I'm afraid I don't have a digital camera. I'll definately see if I can borrow a chronograph. Great idea.
Thank you very much for your interest, everybody. I can never have too much help.

My apologies to the OP for the inadvertant thread hijack.
I shot that exact load a bunch and certainly don't consider it to be over-pressure. It is certainly not a mouse-fart load for the owners of pretty perl-handled revolvers, but it is safe.

H110/296 shows a little bit of temp sensitivity. When I was Chrono'ing back in Feb (40*F), CCI350 primers produced much tighter spreads than Wolf LP. At that point I decided to stick with magnum primers, either CCI350 or Wolf LP Magnum. I can believe that folks in warmer areas (West Texas makes Hell look good) could use standard primers just fine with the slower powders.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
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.432" sounds big. Did you slug your barrel/chambers?
Yes Sir. Slugged the cylinder, then checked it with a tenth micrometer. I used dead soft lead, so I doubt it had any *spring back*.

I didn't check the bore. I'm sure it's smaller than the throats in the cylinder.
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cp1969 View Post
Question: Winchester primers (WLP and WSP) say "for standard and magnum loads."

Which are they?
Winchester says their Large Pistol are good for standard or magnum loads, so I would treat them as a magnum. However, there are standard and magnum variants of their Small Pistol.

I have had best results with the Federal Match magnum primers and H110/W296. CCI work well too but I like the Fed.
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapping Twig View Post
Been loading H110/W296 since 1983 and not once have I used a magnum primer.

Read an article by Skeeter Skelton talking about non magnum primers giving more consistent results, tried it, it worked, never looked back.

.357 and .44 mag.
If I remember correctly Skeeter was using 2400 for those magnum rounds in which case I agree with his findings. When loading 2400 a standard primer does deliver more consistent results. BUT, when using a hard to ignite ball powder like H110/W296 I've always found the use of a magnum primer works out much better. SD numbers climb and are all over the place without using a magnum primer. It all depends upon what powder you're using.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD View Post
If I remember correctly Skeeter was using 2400 for those magnum rounds in which case I agree with his findings. When loading 2400 a standard primer does deliver more consistent results. BUT, when using a hard to ignite ball powder like H110/W296 I've always found the use of a magnum primer works out much better. SD numbers climb and are all over the place without using a magnum primer. It all depends upon what powder you're using.
YMMV, but in my case, it works.

I tried it because he mentioned H110, until that time I hadn't used it.

Case sizing and crimp play a big role, without this the numbers bounce all over the place like you mentioned.

I get no unburned powder, very accurate and consistent results.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:49 PM
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YMMV, but in my case, it works.

I tried it because he mentioned H110, until that time I hadn't used it.

Case sizing and crimp play a big role, without this the numbers bounce all over the place like you mentioned.

I get no unburned powder, very accurate and consistent results.
I wasn't saying you are wrong, I was only relating my experiences. If it works for you then it's good. The OP can read what we all say and choose for himself. It's all good as long as it's not dangerous...
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:21 PM
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Using standard primers with H110 is not something I planned on doing, just happened. I have always used a magnum primer with it in the past.

I could pull the ammo down if I needed to, but CCI says it'll work in 90 degree heat, and this will be a one time deal only.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:43 PM
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In a recent Federal Premium Ammunition publication, I've noticed that they list the primer they are using in all the Premium ammo they're making. All of the loads listed for the 44 Magnum used their #150 standard large pistol primer. These loads ranged from the 225 grain Barnes Copper HP to the 300 special cast bullet - all of their best for hunting.

I have been reading on Cast Bullet forums of others that have gone to the Federal 150 for all their shooting in 44 Mag and heavy 45 Colt with slow powders like 296/H110 and are getting good consistent results!

I have been switching over and am just getting into testing - I believe it is worth a try.

Ward
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:41 PM
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I'm interested to know the truth about this. I'm going to locate a chronograph somewhere to check these loads, just so we'll all know. But it will only apply to warm weather. I plan to always use magnum primers when called for by the loading manuals for going up into the Rockies.

Here's a pic of the gun. A 29-3 with French bastogne walnut grips made by Kurac. I think the grips look great on nickel. Man I like Kurac's grips.

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Old 06-15-2010, 08:18 PM
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I load 23 grains of 296 with 240gr,XTPs using standard WLP primers as recommended by my Hornady load book. I have no problems using them all year around and have taken several nice whitetaik in some cold weather without any problems. While I have not chronographed them they do a great job on deer and are very accurate also out of my Super Redhawk. Can't see any reason for me to go to magnum primers.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:14 PM
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That Bastogne is actually from California, it is a cross between and English/French walnut and the Claro walnut
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:49 PM
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Sorry. I associated the Bastogne name with France.

Whatever it is, or wherever it is from.....it is finer than frog hair!
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:53 PM
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Winchester doesn't even make two kinds of large pistol primers. WLP are used for all loads.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
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Winchester doesn't even make two kinds of large pistol primers. WLP are used for all loads.
This is correct.Consider that the WLP primer is used in the data from many sources and that includes with W296/H110.

While you may make an issue of the fact that the CCI300 is not exactly the same primer,consider that they're not "extremely" different.

If that's not enough,consider the fact that a slightly older Lyman manual of mine does give data with the CCI300 and W296/H110.A later issued manual from that company shows the CCI350 being used with those powders but the difference in the suggested min and max loads between the two manuals is just half a grain apart.

I would shoot those rounds without any concern.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:36 PM
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It's not really an issue of charge, it's a matter of consistent burn. In an extreme scenario, say with a charge of H110/W296 way below minimum and a standard primer on a cold day etc etc etc, in theory the charge could detonate instead of burn normally. I don't really like spreading this possibility/rumor because I have never heard of an actual instance of this happening. Hodgdon's instructions are to reduce by no more than 3% and to use magnum primers, however, so that's what I stick with and recommend to others.

I *have* noticed when doing a ladder and working up a load, the lightest charges of H110/W296 I try will have a a much higher extreme spread. Once I get within Hodgdon's min/max data, that's where I find my most accurate and consistent load.
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:58 AM
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I use 22.0g H110 with a 240g JHP and a mag primer. That's Speer 14's starting load, and it works well for me. I prefer H110 to 2400 because I like the greater recoil and muzzle flash. May not be "logical" but it's more fun!

I don't place much credibility to flattened primers. Cratered yet, but flattened with no other signs of pressure at a min load, no issue. Heck, all of my 10mm primers get flattened somewhat.
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Old 06-20-2010, 06:10 PM
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I made that mistake of using standard primers with H110 in a 357 MAX MANY YEARS AGO, AND THEY WOULD NOT IGNITE. That is the only time I stuck a bullet in the bbl. Learned a good lesson, and it was the first time I had ever used H110. It was also the first time I used a powder that required magnum primers. But what do I know,,,,,,,,, Wallacem in Georgia
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Old 06-20-2010, 10:21 PM
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All the manuals I have read say to use mag primers with H110. So I do.

Oddly, some manuals call for mag primers with 2400 and some do not. I think I even read somewhere NEVER to use mag primers with 2400 due to pressure issues.

And some people say that mag primers are OK in 9mm and .40 as long as the charge is on the low side. I've done that with no issues.
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Old 06-20-2010, 11:17 PM
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Alliant recommends standard primers for 2400 so that's what I use. I have heard that Alliant specifically warns against using magnum primers with this powder, but I could not find that in writing.
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Old 06-24-2010, 12:38 PM
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This is something you yourself have to try side by side. I did. I found the standard primers(Federal) produce considerably tighter group than the mag primers(Federal). The most of info on loading 44mag with H110/W296 recomend mag primers and often, they say standard primers won't work under extreme cold condition. That may be true but I have never experienced it. Although, since I shoot year around and sometimes it gets 20 below, I tested Wincester large pistol, thinking they are a little hotter than Federal standard. The result was good and now I only use Winchester Large Pistol for .44mag and .41mag with H110/W296.
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