.38 SPL loads - thoughts?

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Loaded a few this weekend and curious as to what others have to say for my recipe. .38 SPL target load is mixed one-time fired brass casings with a CCI 500 primer with either a 158 gr. SJFP over 5.7 gr. Unique or a 148 gr. cast DEWC over 5.0 gr. Unique. The DEWC's are crimped in the crimp groove with the rest of the bulllet protruding from the case, OAL unimportant. The SJFP's are crimped exactly in the middle of the cannelure and OAL is 1.44 +/- .01.

Conflicting internet commando data seems to indicate that the 148 gr. 5.0 gr. Unique load is WAY too much, with charges running into the 2.5-3.5 gr. range!?! The 158 gr. load was taken from Sierra's #13 manual as their "accuracy" load.

I have it say the 148 gr. load was extemely tame from a 8 3/8" S&W 586 and VERY accurate too. The 158 was also very accurate and felt like a +P or a light .357 loading.

Above loads will ONLY be fired from a .357 (either N or L frame S&W's or Pythons)...

Thoughts? Any experiences with Unique in a .38 load? Am I running these too hot? I know the leading dangers of running a cast WC too hot. I find it hard to believe that 5.7 is ok for a 158 gr. bullet but 5.0 in a 148 gr. cast is too much.

Thanks!

Have fun and be safe!
Nightshade2x

I had the same concern a few months ago with 5.0grns of Unique under a 158grn LSWC. My experience was that it was a bit too much for a light j-frame, but just fine with a medium frame .38spl or .357. I have not experienced any obvious leading.

You should be just fine shooting them through the guns you mentioned. I have knocked my load back to 4.2grns so that I can comfortably shoot it through my j-frame.

The load data I found for a 148grn DEWC is in the 3.2grn range according to the latest Lee reloading maual.

Alliant, maker of Unique, says your 158 gr. load is .5 gr. over their +P loading, and doesn't even mention Unique for a 148 gr. WC load. Both my Speer and Lyman manuals show you over max on both loads, too.

I'd say you're running pretty hot.

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Pisgah

It is considered good loading practice to put such loads into .357 cases to avoid accidentally loading them into lightweight .38s.
Sure you don't mean to, but Murphy is alive and well, and some of your loads may be around after you're gone.

If you want 357 loads, you should put them in 357 cases.

The WC needs a lower charge because it can take up more case capacity, especially if seated all the way flush. Sometimes the "internet commandos" are right.

Those heavy loads in 38 cases are an accident looking for a place to happen.
Load in 357 no matter and avoid a carbon ring in your chambers. No matter the powder weight, 357 in 357 is a better idea, IMHO. Those cases loaded light will last forever.

Pray and Shoot Daily.
Lee Jones(Celtgun

It never seems to occur to people in procurement offices that if you cannot shoot, gadgetry will not help, and that if you can shoot, gadgetry is unnecessary.
Col. Jeff Cooper

I've been reloading since 1965 and I'm certainly not an Internet commando and I'm sorta confused here for a number of reasons as I'll list below.

1) Sierra doesn't list lead bullet reloading data, so where did you find the 148 gr DEWC/Unique load recipe?

2) Sierra Manuals aren't listed by a manual number, but by an Edition number such as Edition V 4th Printing.

3) Sierra doesn't manufacture a 158 gr SJFP (semi jacketed flat point) bullet.

Would you please clarify?

I agree with what others have said. Those loads seem a mite hot for 38 Spc. It doesn't make any difference that you are shooting them in a 357-M cylinder. Its a 38 spec case and not as strong as the 357 mag case,

Unique is not a common powder for shooting wad cutters. Normally people use something like bullseye, H-titegroup, etc, loaded from about 700-800 fps.

I have little experience with unique itself, I havn't used it in years. I use H-universal, which is about the same burn rate, and almost the same loading data. With universal 5 gr is a stiff load for a DEWC. I personally use 3.0 gr titegroup (for a DEWC load, seated to the end of the boolit) which out of a 4" barrel gets me 775 fps on my chrony.

when i started reloading in the 80's the lyman (46) edition lists 5.1gr.unique max load for the 158 lead swc. i have used 4.5 to 5.0 for years, the 5.0 load goes about 945 fps from my 6" model 10. now the lyman (49) edition lists 4.5 gr. unique as max. i have not had any problems with leading or case life, but i get better groups using 4 to 4.5gr.

I load 5.4 grns of Unique with 150 Grns SWC (Lyman 358477) for my 642, I don't see how 5 grns w/the 148 would be excessive.

However for practice and plinking I load 148 WCs pushed by 2.7 grns of Bullseye, which is my same CF Bullseye load for my Model 52 Smith.

I put a heavy roll crimp on my 150 gr SWCs and finish it off with the Lee Carbide Crimping die in a seperate station.

For my WC loads I seat the bullet flush w/ a slight roll crimp, (because of the Model 52), again I finsh it off with the Lee Carbied CD.

I like the Lee Crimping die with all straight wall cases, makes them chamber easy, and no chances of a wrinkle.

For ligher loads for targets (ICORE) I load 4.5 grns of Unique pushing the 150 Gr SWC, as its not too heavy of a load, yet still meets the power factor for ICORE. This round also has a heavy roll crimp and I finish it with the Lee Crimping Die.

I want to change bullet for the SWC ICORE loads so its easier to get keep them seperate from my defense loads.

Thats just the way I do things, I dont mean to imply that the way other people do it is wrong.

I guess its boils down to what works for you and your guns.

Just speculation, but I think that they have developed better, more accurate, methods of measuring actual chamber pressure since the 70s and 80s. That may be why the newer manuals tend to show reduced charge weights.

I've used the 5.0 gr. Unique under 148 gr. DEWC load in 38 Special before. It's definitely +P and I haven't seen it listed in any manual. The load was shared with me by a very experienced reloader and I did my own research by cross referencing Unique loads with similar lead bullet weights. I worked up to the 5.0 gr. load in .1 gr. increments. I cannot say for certain that it will be safe in any circumstance but with my particular bullet/case/primer/powder/oal combo it functions safely. I shoot it very occasionally in a M642 aluminum framed gun. It's a handful in that gun but shoots dead on... if you can keep from flinching. My recomendation for anyone wanting to use this load (or any max load) is to DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and work up to the max load. Also keep in mind that with 38 Sp. the max operating pressure is so low that normal visible pressure signs such as flattened primers may not show up until AFTER you've exceeded pressure limits.

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Andy

Why use more powder than you need to poke a hole in a paper target? For target shooting I try to go with the lightest load that will hit where I aim.

Speer manual #10 does list this load for the 148 gr. BBLWC bullet, as a max load. However, this manual has a publishers date of 1974 and the data was tested and published well before the new slightly faster burning rate of current production Unique as produced by Alliant and not Hercules, who was the manufacturer of Unique in 1974. It should also be noted here that SAAMI has reduced the max chamber pressure for the 38 Spl since 1974.

I am in no way judging your reloading habits, but what I am saying is to use caution and work your way up to a Maximum load always watching for pressure signs. Never just arbitrarily start at some load recipe that sounds good to you as an individual.

This load using DEWC's isn't a target load but a self defense load. The DEWC at slightly under 1000 fps should punch a nice clean .357" hole going through a bad guy. The flat leading edge would do much more damage than a round nose bullet at similar velocity.

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Andy

I wouldn't think twice about using that load in an L frame. Speer #13 lists max load of 5.1 grains of Unique for a 148 BBWC in .38 Special. That was published in 1998, later than the alleged "new" Unique, that supposedly is faster burning therefore different but for which the manufacturer decided to keep the exact same name and with no warning to the end user. Hmmmm.......

Pressure is pressure, it doesn't become thermo-nuclear just because it is in a .38 Special case, which in a modern (non-wadcutter) case is the same construction as a .357 Magnum case, albeit with less capacity.

Your load is not even close to .38-44 HV levels, which are also completely safe in an L frame. If the cases eject easily out of the cylinder, they are fine. Loading manuals are extremely conservative these days - there are old guns around which at this point are feared to be problematic with normal loads. Look how the SAAMI pressure spec has been lowered for .38 Special since it's inception; ironically the guns are more precise, stronger and made of better materials than ever, yet the pressure spec is lower. Ridiculous really, but part of our lawsuit-happy commonsense-lacking society. I'm shocked reloading components are even sold anymore.

Having said that, I wouldn't use that load for self-defense in a .357 magnum gun. A cast DEWC at 1000 fps is going to penetrate just about any person or building materials to the point of excess, and be .358 calibre the entire time. Even in a .38 Special case (I'm assuming you have a bunch of them on hand which is why you are using them), you could easily push a 158 grain LHP to 1000 fps in that long-barrel revolver as a modern wimpy +P load, or a 125 grain JHP at 1100 fps at the same pressure levels. Those latter two bullets will expand to .50+ and will penetrate no more than 16" (as opposed to 20"+ for that wadcutter load).

The wadcutter as a defense load makes sense in a 2" small-frame gun especially in the winter if you concerned about having enough penetration through heavy clothing and want a reduced recoil load. In that instance a more moderate DEWC load of 4.5 grains Unique would be a better idea for the small gun.

We always load 2.7 grains of Reddot with a 148 hbwc, Or 4.3 grains of
unique and a 158 swc. Good loads out of a 637 or 64.

This may be true, but it is also true that the old data was safe in the guns it was used in, no matter what the exact pressure was.

It is also true the publishers have reduced pressures to conform with revised SAAMI standards, driven by liability concerns.

So, within reason, does the exact pressure realy matter as long as the loads are proven safe?

Not picking on you, your post just set this up for something I had wanted to say for a while.

As others are saying....Nightshade your loads are "hot" and over SAAMI spec but they are perfectly safe in your .357 and aren't likely to harm any good .38 special. I have sort of a respect /hate relationship with Sierra manuals. Their stuff is "worked up" not pressure tested so, while most centerfire rifle calibers relate closely with opther manuals with pressure tested loads that does NOT hold true with revolver cartridges...well in a sense it does, the Sierra listings in .38 special correlate well with OLD Speer and Lyman manuals. However they are way hotter than newer editions from sources that shoot stuff through pressure barrels. Bottom line? The old "hot" loads are above the current pressure specs....but they have a long history of safe use in 38 special revolvers .

Lawer's make poor reloading developers......

its kind of interesting looking back in the older manuals and the newer ones as well