Kieth style load in 41?

[SAFireman]

Anyone here been loading SWC 255-265 in the 41 mags?

Just got through with a bunch of 210's (JSP, SWC) and want to move into a larger weight class....any ideas? good sources for bullets in bulk? any favorite loads?

Thanks

[Gun 4 Fun]

Beartooth bullets has the bullets and load data-

Beartooth Bullets > Home

[SuperMan]

For a true Keith bullet in the 250+ weight class you will probably have to cast your own. I have a mold purchased on group buy from the Cast Bullet Forums that throws a 265 grain Keith that has proved very accurate. If you want something a little lighter Leadhead Bullets makes an excellent 230 Keith. Rim Rock bullets also has the same bullet with a gascheck but it is more costly.

Most of the bullets over 250 grains in .41 caliber commercially available are of LBT design. They are excellent and accurate but not classic Keith. They can be had with or without gas checks from:
Beartooth Bullets
Cast Performance Bullets
Penn Bullets (SSK Style up to 300 grains)
Leadhead Bullets
Rim Rock Bullets
..and probably more.

My favorite heavy is the 255 Wide Flat Nose Gas Check from Cast Performance Bullet Company. 22.0 grains of H110 is very accurate in DA, SA revolvers as Marlin Carbines. For target work the 230 Keith and 8.0 grains of Unique is VERY accurate and mild...about 975 from a 4" 657.

One problem you may find however is that your gun may run out of "down" rear sight adjustment with the bullets over 250 grains.

Bob

[SAFireman]

That is good information...All I have been seeing is 170, 210 and not really any in the Keith style....I was figuring on having to cast my own at some time in the future...I am told that 255 is about the biggest that will feed through the Marlin without mods....is there any truth to that?

[BruceM]

The Keith style cast bullet for the .41 Magnum is Lyman #410459. Hensley & Gibbs has a similar bullet although the mold number eludes me at the moment. It weighs in at about 210 grains in #2 alloy. There are Keith style bullets which are heavier but, to my knowledge, they are not true designs of Elmer Keith, just of a similar style.

Bruce

[rkrcpa]

I believe the H&G number was 258 and that was the bullet Keith was happy with. It generally should weigh 220grs. I get mine from Montana Bullet works.

You have to be careful, there are a lot of casters out there who refer to any SWC as a Keith and they are actually a run of the mill bevel base bullet. Elmer would roll over in his grave.

[BruceM]

I do believe that the H&G 258 is the correct one. I know that the Lyman 410459 is rated as 220 grains but I never got that weight with any alloy I used.

Roger on the "any SWC" statement. True Keith designs have three equal width driving bands and a single deep square bottom grease groove with a plain, square base. No gas checks or bevel bases. I know that older versions of 429421 had a round grease groove but later molds had the square groove Keith called for. I don't know if Lyman revised the .41 version. I do know that the Lyman mold with the round grease grooves seem to have less propensity for bullets hanging in the mold-so they cast a little easier.



Bruce

[Dan Cash]

Cast your own. Contact LBT and follow their guidance. The resulting bullet will fit your Smith or other brand and will perform beyond expectations.

[SuperMan]

Originally Posted by SAFireman

That is good information...All I have been seeing is 170, 210 and not really any in the Keith style....I was figuring on having to cast my own at some time in the future...I am told that 255 is about the biggest that will feed through the Marlin without mods....is there any truth to that?

There are casters out there who make a real Keith bullet, they are just hard to find. The closest is the Leadhead mentioned above. It does however have a slightly wider meplat than most Keith bullets do.

The Marlin is not limited by bullet weight but by how much of the bullet sicks out of the case. I have shot several different 300+- grain bullets of LBT and SSK design out of the 1894s I have with no problem at all. On some of the designs, especially Keith bullets, the nose design causes one to be a little more careful with lever manipulation but in using the 265 Keith bullets my friend and I cast in his 1894FG they shot fine.

Bob

[SAFireman]

Originally Posted by SuperMan

There are casters out there who make a real Keith bullet, they are just hard to find. The closest is the Leadhead mentioned above. It does however have a slightly wider meplat than most Keith bullets do.

The Marlin is not limited by bullet weight but by how much of the bullet sicks out of the case. I have shot several different 300+- grain bullets of LBT and SSK design out of the 1894s I have with no problem at all. On some of the designs, especially Keith bullets, the nose design causes one to be a little more careful with lever manipulation but in using the 265 Keith bullets my friend and I cast in his 1894FG they shot fine.

Bob

I knew someone had a Marlin 1894....I figured that bullet seating depth would make some difference, but one manufacturer told me explicitly that 255 was the largest that would cycle in the Marlin.

What I am going for is one load that is accurate and functional in both the 657 and the 1894....I will look into the molds because all of the pre-cast bullets seem to be expensive (for the ones that I want anyhow).

Thanks again for the help guys, you have made my day

[38-44HD45]

It's not a Keith design, but Cast Performance makes 250gr. and 255gr. .41 bullets that would likely work fine. Results for Cast Performance

I load 187gr. WFNGC bullets from Cast Performance in my Marlin .357 1894, and have to be sure that they are seated as deeply as the crimp groove will allow for slick feeding, but I'm running them at 1914 fps. and they work great. As noted above, it is the length of the nose of the bullet in front of the crimp groove, not the weight of the bullet, that counts in whether they will work in the little Marlins.

[SAFireman]

I think that I am going to order the leadhead 250 grain

PM41-250 Short WFN 0.411 250GR

Do I really need the gas checked? These will be slow in the Smith (I think 900-1100, but haven't figured out a safe load yet) and in the Marlin they will be moving faster (don't know how fast yet) ....I don't want to fight with leading, but I don't want to have to use the gas checked unless I need to (cost)....and right now, I think that I need the Gas checked base. Am I right or wrong?

[Gun 4 Fun]

Unless bullets are cast and alloyed specifically for your gun, or at least you have prior experience with the particular brand you are using, gas checked bullets will go a long way towards alleviating leading issues.

For your S&W try 7-8 grains of 231 and standard primers. I have used a number of non checked bullets with that load, and several different weights from 175 to 220. They all seem to run between 850-1050 fps depending on weight and the barrel length they were fired in.

[BruceM]

"Unless bullets are cast and alloyed specifically for your gun, or at least you have prior experience with the particular brand you are using, gas checked bullets will go a long way towards alleviating leading issues."

Well, not really. Alloy has a lot less to do with leading than correct sizing & lubrication. If the alloy is sufficiently hard and the bullet is sized correctly for your gun and lubed correctly, cast bullets without gas checks can be driven to 1,500 fps or more without leading.



Bruce

[SuperMan]

When I last spoke with the owner of Leadhead Bullets he told me had the current contract to supply Federal with the bullets in their CastCore line of ammo. I have never used his non-gaschecked 250 LBT but have used a lot of his 230 Keith which is non-gaschecked and have had no leading problems.

Buy a hundred of each of the bullets and try them before buying a big lot of bullets.

If you have any leading problem, much of it has to do with bore roughness. I had one BarSto .38 Super 1911 barrel that gave me leading problem but after handlapping it with fine auto valve grinding compound till it shined it was no longer a problem. It is very easy to do with a correctly sized patch pusher and tightly fitted patch.

If you can find some SR4756 powder you may want to try it for the handgun loads. It is slower than Unique and should move the big slug along at 1000 fps from a handgun without the pressure issues you may have with faster burning powders. I use 12 grains with 220 grain Speer JSWC-SP bullets and get 1250 fps. For the rifle, as in a full load that could also be used in the handgun, I use 20 grains of H110 with the 250 GC. It runs 1300 fps from a 4.25" Freedom Arms 97. It will shoot though anything...

Bob

[Gun 4 Fun]

Originally Posted by BruceM

"Unless bullets are cast and alloyed specifically for your gun, or at least you have prior experience with the particular brand you are using, gas checked bullets will go a long way towards alleviating leading issues."

Well, not really. Alloy has a lot less to do with leading than correct sizing & lubrication. If the alloy is sufficiently hard and the bullet is sized correctly for your gun and lubed correctly, cast bullets without gas checks can be driven to 1,500 fps or more without leading.



Bruce

You're right Bruce, and I should have pointed that out, but I was mainly trying to point out that if he didn't have much experience with lead bulets, and was uncertain which to use at first, there's a lot less to worry about with GC bullets where leading may be a concern.

[SAFireman]

Originally Posted by Gun 4 Fun

You're right Bruce, and I should have pointed that out, but I was mainly trying to point out that if he didn't have much experience with lead bulets, and was uncertain which to use at first, there's a lot less to worry about with GC bullets where leading may be a concern.

You are correct....I am worried about spending more time cleaning out lead, than shooting....and to top it off, I keep hearing rumors about the Micro Groove barrel in my Marlin not liking lead bullets.... I just want to make this painless, inexpensive, and simple (what more could I ask for?)

You guys have been a whole lot of helpful information...now I just have to put it to work....will definitely have to break out the chronograph for a range report (along with the new model 58 and 657 3").

Thanks again guys!

[BruceM]

I have to tell you that Marlin's MicroGroove rifling can be persnickety about cast bullets with or without GC's. They tend to be atypical in this respect to most every other gun out there. I'm sure you can buy commercially cast gas check bullets but I seldom see them here. Since I do my own, I don't make much of an effort to search them out.

Bruce