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  #1  
Old 08-15-2010, 01:15 PM
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Default Photographic database of gunpowders (from URUGUAY)

Dear reloaders:

I'm working on a "photographic database of gunpowders" for our forum, and this is one of the reasons that led me to join here, and I would like to share it with you. Maybe someone could find it interesting.

The powders in our database:

ALLIANT 2400
ALLIANT BULLSEYE
ALLIANT UNIQUE

FM A-2
FM A-27
FM Z-50
FM FANAZUL (ALLIANT RED DOT)

HODGDON BL-C(2)

IMR 4198

ROTTWEIL P-805
ROTTWEIL P-806

SMA BLACK POWDER

TEC HARSEIM

VECTAN A-1
VECTAN BA-9
VECTAN BA-10
VECTAN SP-3
VECTAN TUBAL 3000
VECTAN TUBAL 5000

WINCHESTER 231
WINCHESTER 473-AA

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-15-2010 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:20 PM
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From Alliant powders:


ALLIANT 2400





ALLIANT BULLSEYE:





ALLIANT UNIQUE:


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Old 08-15-2010, 01:25 PM
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From F.M. (Fabricaciones Militares, ARGENTINA)

FM A-2





FM A-27





FM Z-50





FM FANAZUL (theoretically, bulk ALLIANT RED DOT)


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Old 08-15-2010, 02:40 PM
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Interesting, but trying to identify powders by appearance can be extremely hazardous to your health.
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Old 08-15-2010, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WR Moore View Post
Interesting, but trying to identify powders by appearance can be extremely hazardous to your health.
Dear WR Moore:

I understand what you mean, but maybe you should consider this:

In USA gunpowder is cheap and easy to find. But in some countries such as Uruguay, you could expect to pay $50 to $120 for a pound, only if you find someone who wants to sell it.
In Uruguay there is less variety of powders than in the USA, so here it is easier to identify.

The recommendation for anyone who has an unknown gunpowder must be to destroy or deactivate it, but in a situation as described above, you can’t expect that someone will want to destroy this expensive and hard-to-find item.
That’s the reason why we prefer provide people with as much information as possible, always warning about the risks involved because as you say, trying to identify a powder only for it appearance, can be very dangerous.

As you can see, our way of thinking and acting fits our own reality.

Regards.

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-22-2010 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 08-15-2010, 03:29 PM
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From ROTTWEIL


ROTTWEIL P-805





ROTTWEIL P-806


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Old 08-15-2010, 03:50 PM
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Thanks, for those great pictures. Some look so good I could have them for cereal at breakfast.

I wish you success in your data base and hope you can get most of the major powders. I wish we could send you samples. I can take some photos but do not know if they would be equal to yours. Let me know if you want a powder you do not have and maybe I do.
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Old 08-15-2010, 04:12 PM
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Very interesting pictures.
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  #9  
Old 08-15-2010, 08:36 PM
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Dear OCD1:

Thanks a lot for the offer and I appreciate any help you can give me to improve this database.
Indeed, right now I am doing a research about HI-SKOR powder because a friend have some pounds of an unbranded powder. Some people say that his powder is Hi-Skor 700 but no one can prove it.
I think that it could be the first HI-SKOR made by DuPont (prior IMR HI-SKOR 700X).
I wrote to Mike Daly (Hodgdon Customer Satisfaction Manager) about this problem and he said that:

"In 1962 a powder called "Hi Skor" that was brought out by DuPont. It was the first of the double based, fast burning flake type powders for shotshell to be made by DuPont. It is the parent of Hi Skor 700X. At about 1964, Hi Skor became Hi Skor 700X with only minor changes in burn speed to the powder."

I took some photos of this powder and sent them to him, but he could not tell me what powder is. Then I asked him if he could tell me what it isn't, I mean, if he can tell me if it isn't Hi Skor 700 nor 800. I am waiting for his answer.

Maybe someone here could look these pictures and tell me if this powder looks as HI-SKOR by DuPont or HI-SKOR 700X by IMR, or as something else.

Photos of this unbranded powder:



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  #10  
Old 08-16-2010, 12:05 AM
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Based on you list in your 1st post, I could shot pics of BlueDot, H-110, IMR 4064, Trail Boss, Accurate 2230, H-322 and maybe some I can not think of right now.

Let me know.
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  #11  
Old 08-16-2010, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD1 View Post
Based on you list in your 1st post, I could shot pics of BlueDot, H-110, IMR 4064, Trail Boss, Accurate 2230, H-322 and maybe some I can not think of right now.

Let me know.
Excellent OCD1, I don't have any of the powders you have.

Thanks a lot.
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  #12  
Old 08-16-2010, 01:13 AM
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Dear colleagues:

This is a great video found by a user of our forum. It was produced in Italy and shows different powders under an electronic microscope.
I hope you enjoy.

YouTube - Polveri infumi da ricarica... mai viste così !

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-16-2010 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:33 AM
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Those are great high quality photos! They really provide a good illustration of the different types of powders: flake, spherical, cylindrical, etc. I wasn't familiar with the powders being made in South America. Thanks for taking the time to share your research with the forum!
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:19 AM
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i can shoot some vectan powder that i use

A0-BA9-BA10-SP7-TU5000-but i don't known how to put pics on the forum
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Old 08-16-2010, 11:36 AM
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Here are two shots of IMR Trail Boss. I took them on auto settings on my windowsill. If they are good enough quality for your use please let me know. I reduced the size (from very large mega pixels for ease of uploading and downloading)

IMR TRAIL BOSS




IMR TRAIL BOSS

I pushed some aside so the edges could be seen.

NOT COPYRIGHTED, use as you wish

Last edited by Rule3; 08-16-2010 at 11:39 AM.
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  #16  
Old 08-16-2010, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primersp View Post
i can shoot some vectan powder that i use

A0-BA9-BA10-SP7-TU5000-but i don't known how to put pics on the forum
Comment allez-vous, camarade français:

Of course I accept your offer and I am very grateful for what you can contribute. I have photos of some french gunpowders and I will post them in the next message.
And by private message, I will explain how to "EMBED" pictures on a forum.

À bientôt

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-16-2010 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:13 PM
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French gunpowders:

VECTAN A-1
VECTAN BA-9
VECTAN BA-10
VECTAN SP-3
VECTAN TUBAL 3000
VECTAN TUBAL 5000
























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Old 08-16-2010, 02:16 PM
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do you want i take picture like macro photos
A0 is similar to A1 and AS in shape
ba10 is colored now ( before no)
here the price is 29 euro for the A série
and 39 euro for all the other in can of 500 grams.
we find also the vitha a bit less expensive 65 euro the can of 1 kg
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:18 PM
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Default 700X

Tiro,
I am unable to take the quality of picture that you and the other fellow have, but here is a picture of some 700X that I have.
The grid is 1/8".
Dick
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File Type: jpg 700X gunpowder.JPG (43.5 KB, 243 views)
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:43 PM
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Dear Reddog:

Thank you very much for your picture.
Well, I think it shows that the unknown powder I have, is definitely HI-SKOR, and it's a surprise to know that it's 700X.
I thought that it could be old HI-SKOR (not 700X).
Please, could you tell me if it was made by DuPont or by IMR?
Any idea about the date of manufacturing? Year or decade?

Regards and thanks again.

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-16-2010 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:18 PM
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Current production WW 231. Scale is in inches, with each hash-mark equal to .010"



...and a little closer:
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Old 08-16-2010, 11:02 PM
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Here's Unique from the 1940s.



DuPont SR 4756 from 1975



Red Dot from the 1950s



Hi Vel #2 from the 1940s



DuPont #6 from 1940-1950



Alcan 7 from the 1970s



DuPont 700X from 1979



I might be able to get better close up pictures if I would read the instruction manual.

BTW, four of those powders can be seen on the top shelf with the 8 pound cans.


Last edited by Paul5388; 08-16-2010 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:07 AM
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Tiro,
It's DuPont and I'm pretty sure it's from the 1960s. Did you notice, there is no yellow flake in my sample?
Dick
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:24 PM
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Tiro,
INTERESTING series of posts! Can you tell me the size of the squares in the background of some of the pix?
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
Tiro,
INTERESTING series of posts! Can you tell me the size of the squares in the background of some of the pix?
Dear Cyrano:

My background paper has a milimetric grid.
Regards
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:28 PM
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Dear Black Talon, Paul5388, OCD1 and other friends:

I would like to thank you for the job of photographing these powders. Your pictures will be useful for the work I'm doing.
By the way, I will share with you my latest job, somewhat like a "Gunpowder Library" to:

- To help users to know gunpowders and to identify them (when they not have other means to do it).
- To create a database to serve as a reference for comparisons, or other type of researchs.
- To have our own samples in order to improve our "Photo Library of gunpowders."

I am posting high resolution pictures (1550x900 pixels). Click on each picture to see it in high detail.

(my resize bbcode isn't working here, I need to learn how to).




















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Old 08-19-2010, 06:11 PM
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Tiro,
I told you wrong in an earlier post. The 700X I have is IMR, not Dupont. Sorry!
Your pics are great! How large are those bottles?
Dick
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddog View Post
Tiro,
How large are those bottles?
Dear Dick:

My little bottles really are injection vials with a 10ml capacity and 48x22mm.
According to the gunpowder you're storing, each vial of 10ml will have a capacity from 110 to 180 grains.
Vials are similar as these:


And with this kind of vials, you could (if you can access to the specialized tool) sealing them with an aluminum crimped ring.


But there are some other options as vials with screw caps:

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-19-2010 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:18 AM
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Nice collection, Tiro. Thank you for sharing!

Awhile back I took and posted on this forum a picture of the powder from famed Buffalo Bore 38spl +P load



Please let us know if anything in your database looks like it.

Mike
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:32 PM
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This stuff facinates me. I might have to get a USB microscope from eBay and join in. I'd like to see 800x up close anyways...
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:51 PM
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All this is very interesting and the photography is great but I'm not sure what the practical value is. Like one of the previous posters said, if you are trying to identify unknown powders by sight you are asking for trouble. There are so many uncatalogued powders out there that look like one thing but act like another. I understand trying to keep costs as low as possible, but what is it worth if it leads to a blown gun or, worst yet, an injury. If you are reloading, your powder should only come from a sealed factory container that you have opened yourself. Anything else is just flirting with disaster.
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Old 08-22-2010, 12:22 AM
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Some powder is better than no powder and doing without is what you're asking T&R to do.

Treating everything like it's Bullseye will ensure there isn't a blown gun gun and if there's a squib, just knock the bullet out of the barrel and add more powder.
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Old 08-22-2010, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
All this is very interesting and the photography is great but I'm not sure what the practical value is. Like one of the previous posters said, if you are trying to identify unknown powders by sight you are asking for trouble. There are so many uncatalogued powders out there that look like one thing but act like another. I understand trying to keep costs as low as possible, but what is it worth if it leads to a blown gun or, worst yet, an injury. If you are reloading, your powder should only come from a sealed factory container that you have opened yourself. Anything else is just flirting with disaster.
Dear cmj8591:

I think I've already answered about all these points (*) and I am agreed with you but, I think that I couldn't help anyone just acting so idealistically and simply saying "follow the book's word".
The reality here is a bit different than yours and it's forces us to do not-so-idealistic things.
So, if I am doing this job is only because I am those who think that providing people with as much information as possible is better and more effective than just telling them: "don't do that".

Quote:
I understand trying to keep costs as low as possible
No, it's a matter of availability (as Paul5388 said).

(*) My previous answer: Photographic database of gunpowders (from URUGUAY)

Thanks for your opinion and best regards

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-22-2010 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 08-22-2010, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rwnielsen View Post
This stuff facinates me. I might have to get a USB microscope from eBay and join in. I'd like to see 800x up close anyways...
Dear rwnielsen:

I experimented with 4 instruments:

1) A regular office scanner (from Epson)
2) Industrial scanner (from Sony)
3) Digital USB microscope from INTEL (almost a kid toy but not so bad)
4) German microscope from a laboratory with a digital camera adapted.

With this last tool, the detail was impressive, but the problem is the colors clarity, and the illumination.

I found that the most equilibrated blend was obtained with a good camera (Panasonic DMC-ZS3, 10Mpixel, ISO 80, great macro) but is a good thing to experiment by yourself.

Check this video about gunpowder under electronic microscope:
YouTube - Polveri infumi da ricarica... mai viste così !

I hope I have helped you.

Best regards

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Old 08-22-2010, 04:00 PM
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Treating everything like bullseye can cause problems too. Dense powders, like WW296, require loading to maximum case capacity. If you load 5 grains of 296 in a 44 magnum case for example, you can create a pressure issue.

I'm not trying to be "idealistic", I'm just trying to illustrate the dangers involved in using an unknown powder. I guess if this system works for you then go for it. The problem is that there are more than a few people who come to these forums to learn how to reload. They have little experience with the hobby and I don't think that they should read this and think that this method of powder identification is OK. Your method is dangerous regardless of your justifications. That's the only way to describe it and readers of this forum need to understand that.
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Old 08-22-2010, 05:56 PM
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Dear cmj8591:

Although at a first glance may not seem, but you and me are doing the same thing. You are trying to illustrate about the dangers involved in using unknow gunpowder, and I am trying to illustrate about the appearance of those gunpowders, and both we have the same purpose: to prevent that a reloader may commit a mistake, for example, to confuse Bullseye with 296.
Therefore, both we are providing reloaders with more information.

And if I didn't mention before, I'll do it right now: the first thing we did (in our forum) before publishing our "Gunpowders Photo Library" was a warn to reloaders with a highlighted red text, telling them that this method of identification couldn't be 100% accurate and the risks involved should force us to be more cautious.

Of course I would like to recommend something like this: "If you have an unknow gunpowder and you have $15 bucks in your wallet, go to the nearest gunpowder's shop and buy a new one."
But here in Uruguay, the gunpowder is a restricted sale item (a maximum of two pounds per person per month) and you need a special license to buy it, therefore, you have only two places to purchase it: in a military unit called "Servicio de Material y Armamento (something like "Supplies and Weapons Service") and in a private shooting club (the only one allowed to sell gunpowder to a reloader with special license).
Occasionally, some reloaders sell their own gunpowder and that is how the other shooters (without license) can get it often paying an overprice ($120 for a pound of rifle powder).
Instead, you have free access to gunpowder and therefore I say that we live in different realities.

Regards and thanks

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-27-2010 at 02:58 AM.
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Old 08-22-2010, 06:39 PM
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Dense powders, like WW296, require loading to maximum case capacity. If you load 5 grains of 296 in a 44 magnum case for example, you can create a pressure issue
The only pressure issue would be too little pressure that would cause a squib, that I have already addressed. As far as a SEE incident, it just doesn't happen, even in .44 Mag sized cases.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:27 PM
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The phenomenon that I am talking about is called detonation. It has been observed almost from the beginning of metallic cartridge weapons. It usually occurs when the loading density of a case drops below 30% with certain powders. (The critical loading density changes with the burning rate of the powder) What happens is that the small amount of powder inside of the case has more room to spread out causing more of its surface area to be exposed to the flame of the primer. This causes the pressure to spike violently and can result in the gun bursting. Much like the grain elevator explosions we hear about once in a while. The condition is difficult to replicate in test conditions but it has been done and does occur in the field. The best studies were done by Army Ordinance and DuPont in the 50’s and 60’s. I suggest that you find a book called Hatcher’s Notebook authored by Gen. Julian Hatcher. He goes into depth about internal ballistics and covers this topic. Modern reloading manuals keep loading densities between 60 and 85%. (Some exceptions to this exist). I use the example of 5 grains of 296 because it is only about 15% of the loading density of the 44mag and COULD create the detonation condition.

The wrong amount of the wrong powder will blow up a gun just as easily in Uruguay as it will in the US. The laws of physics are the same for all of us so I think that our realities are more similar than you think.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:01 PM
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There's a lot of debate on the causes for SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect), or detonation. The only verified laboratory produced incident I have heard of involved Norma MRP in a .243 Win loading at about 85% density.
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Caliber of tested cartridge was .243 Winchester, bullet weight 80 grains, powder then-new NORMA MRP, and the charge... surprisingly... just 15 % less than a maximum (compressed !) load. It was STILL A REDUCED CHARGE DETONATION; not one caused by an excessive charge, because the charge could not be excessive with those components in use. Light bullet and slowly burning powder is not an advisable combination of loading components for .243 Win., known as a caliber prone to S.E. Effect. (It's "big brother" .308 and "kid brother" .22-250 are considerably less risky; last mentioned presumably because of more steep 25 degrees shoulder angle).
I'll check into Hatcher's Notebook, since I think I have a copy.

The norm for reduced loads of W296/H110 is incomplete combustion that leaves a bullet in the barrel, not a SEE event.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:51 PM
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I suppose I'll need a little more information on the location in Hatcher's Notebook that discusses detonation (SEE), because the second edition of 1957 doesn't mention it in the index on page 484 or on page 627.
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmj8591 View Post
The wrong amount of the wrong powder will blow up a gun just as easily in Uruguay as it will in the US. The laws of physics are the same for all of us so I think that our realities are more similar than you think.
Dear cmj8591:

Of course, but I don't remember ever argued with you about "detonation phenomenons" or "physics laws", but sometimes my memory tends to be fragile.
By the way, in Uruguay we usually use filler materials (synthetics and naturals) to reload 30-06, 308, 45-70 and all rifle calibers with Alliant 2400 or any shotgun gunpowder, and if you wish, it will be a pleasure to create a topic to allow you to write about all of these interesting issues.

Thanks for your contribution and best regards

Last edited by TIROyRECARGA; 08-23-2010 at 04:36 AM.
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