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Old 09-05-2010, 04:53 PM
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Default Any loads for a 45-70 405 gr cast bullet

I just got a marlin in 45-70 and want to load some heavy lead,my speer book has only one load for a jacketed 400 grain. Are there any of you that have lever guns that you load for this caliber. I have a Lee 405 fp mould no GC I would like to use.
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:15 PM
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I've had good results using M1873 Trapdoor Springfield-level loads with the 405 grain RNF lead bullet. Start at about 36 grains IMR 3031 and work up carefully. You can certainly load hotter, but don't try to get .458 Winchester Magnum velocities!

You have to really watch the COL in that Marlin M1895. Overlength cartridges will jam in the feedpath and you can not extract them without disassembling the action.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:29 PM
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3031 is a great powder in the 45/70. I shoot 47.0 grains of it with an RCBS 405 gr. out of a Ruger #1. Work your load up carefully.

68 grains of FFG with a Lyman 457193 with a Federal 215 primer works good too if you like a little smoke and don't mind a little cleaning up afterwards.
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:53 AM
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AA 5744 is really great in a 45-70. 27gr is very accurate in every rifle I've ever shot it in.
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:27 AM
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In my original trapdoor Springfields I have used the Lee 457-405F cast bullet with 26 grains of IMR 4198, standard primers, and a 2-grain tuft of dacron fiberfill under the bullet. Velocity is estimated at about 1100FPS, and my standard sight settings work well out to 200 yards. Recoil is negligible in the 11-lb. +/- 1884 Springfield.

In my 1886 Winchester I have gone up to 38 grains of IMR 4198, standard primers, and a 2-grain tuft of fiberfill. Velocity is estimated at about 1600 FPS. Recoil is brisk. This load shot through a bull elk from just behind the ribcage, through the lungs, and breaking the offside shoulder (about 4 feet of penetration) for an instant stop from about 80 yards.

I cast these bullets with a 50/50 mix of wheelweights and linotype metal, lubed with Alox but not sized (.459 lubri-sizer die). Actual weight is 388 grains, actual diameter .4582", with that metal. I have cast a few hundred of pure linotype that would be better for the heaviest charges, finished weight 370 grains, diameter .4585".

The fiberfill under the bullet provides good protection to the bullet base and is fully consumed. Either of the above loads will provide groups under 6" at 100 yards in my vintage rifles.

I have since gone to the 500-grain Lee gas-check mold which also works very well in the .45-90 Winchester and .45 2-3/4" Sharps.

I hope that your Marlin has standard cut rifling. The MicroGroove barrels do not handle cast bullets very well according to most reports.
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Old 09-06-2010, 10:29 AM
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My light 50 yd load is 11.2 gr. Unique behind the 405 gr. cast lead bullet. Punches clean holes with mild recoil.
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:29 AM
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I have used a cheapo commercially cast 405 gr. plain base bullet in my Guide Gun with heavy charges of IMR 4198. Accuracy is excellent, with very little leading. In fact, I killed my last whitetail with this load. It's very simple but very effective. I also use XMP5744 for reduced loads with excellent accuracy. These are the only two powders I now use in the .45-70, as IMR 4198 also gives the highest velocity with the super heavyweight bullets.

Oh, if you want some really reduced loads 231 works fine with practically all cast bullets meant for the .45 Colt.

Dave Sinko
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:38 PM
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I have had good results with 27.5/5744, and 25/2400 using cast bullets, both 450 paper patched and naked 405s.
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Old 09-06-2010, 04:38 PM
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Default Thanks,It's a micro groove barrel......

It's a Micro groove barrel with a 1 in 20 twist, so Ill have to keep my velocity down to 1600 fps or less to keep from slipping due to the shallow rifling. I think thats where the problem is ,unlike the ballard style rifle barrel that cuts better on a cast bullet. I casted some 405 rfp gr last night and water quenched them and they came out pretty hard for the speed I'm looking for. 16-17 for hardness. It's a no gc bullet. I'll give that a try and post my results. I'll save the jacketed stuff if I ever decide to hunt anything. If you guys dont mind post a few more loads as I want to experiment with this rifle. Keep in mind the 1600 fps or less loads as it's a micro groove barrel. Thaks for all your input.....Super.
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:05 PM
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I would suggest that you get the book "40 years with the 45-70" revised version by Paul Matthews. part of the revised edition is additional information with the Marlin 45-70. if you own a 45-70 you should have this book. it is a very good read
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:12 PM
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I've tried Reloder 7 in mine...the exact charge eludes me now, but, they were pretty stout. However, I seem to have settled on near max charges of H4198 and Hornady 350 JRNs.
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:35 PM
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For light loads shot in a Trapdoor type rifle I charge 31gr IMR4198 w/405gr Cast bullet.

For use in a levergun with the same 405gr Cast bullet I charge 41.0gr IMR4198.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:24 PM
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Default Good luck

You used the ugly M-word -- microgroove rifling. I had a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Could not hit a 5-gallon bucket at 50 yards with lead bullets, but it shot 2" - 3" groups at 100 yards with jacketed bullets. Both bullets were 240 gr SWC.

If its hour-of-angle (60 times bigger than minute of angle) accuracy with lead bullets you have 2 choices: jacketed only or get a newer lead friendly rifle. My Quigley by Taylors Arms does great with AA 5744. 8# jug is almost gone !!
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:30 PM
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Don't let anyone deter you from shooting cast with a microgroove barrel. What's important is the bullet size. Either slug the barrel or just go ahead and try .460" fodder.

That 22" barrel will get you to almost 2000fps with a 405gr cast. There are so many good powders with the 45-70 that I hesitate to get dogmatic about a load. I really liked Benchmark, but I also liked H322 and just about every powder in Hodgdon's extreme line. I've settled on H4198 - if you want some cast load data pm me.

When you have shot 3, check the muzzle for a lube ring. If you've got one then the bullet is sealing just fine. If you don't then the bullet is likely undersized (or you don't have any lube )

My guess that you'll be fine with .459 -.460, iffy with .458" and pathetic with .457". I don't know the art of casting so I don't know what your mold throws.
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:52 PM
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Trail Boss can work for wimp loads. IME IMR 4198 has been my best all around powder. Worked better than 3031 for me.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:20 AM
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Bullet size is key in a Marlin.

My 1894 likes my Lyman 429244, but I never size them past the grease grooves, so the front driving band is as cast and that's enough to make the bullets engage the MG and it shoots like a laser.

Like you I am new to the 45-70, but with all the reading I've done at MO group and CastBoolets, and owing to the fact that 4198 is my powder of choice for my Mini 30, I'm going to start with 4198. Fewer powders is a tenant of my operation.

I've got 2 moulds on order at CastBoolets, both NOE customs. One is the 350g and the other is 425g. In both cases they are 3 cavity with two of the cavities GC and one plain base. Should make for some good loads.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:21 AM
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I've gotten 2 and a quarter inch groups out of 38 gr. of H4895 and a 500 gr. round nose bullet from a Trapdoor with Buffington sights at 200 yds. Frank Barnes recommended the load in the 1973 Gun Digest. The oal of the cartridge is .2" longer than the common 405 gr. load.

YMMV

Regards,

Tam 3
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:36 AM
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Good morning
I highly recommend you go to the Castboolit Gunload sight and get some very good info.
Shooting cast is a bit more detail demanding.. that´s why many have problems. Use too small diameter bullet and will learn alot about lead mining.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:19 PM
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I cast the RCBS 405 gr bullet (gas checked) and load with WLR primers and Reloader #7. You can easily get velocity up to 2,000 fps out of an 18" barrel with this powder/bullet combo, but my go-to load is right around 1,600 fps. Anything more than that, and it gets really unpleasant for me to shoot, and I seriously doubt if any bear or moose would know the difference between 1,600 and 2,000 fps at 50 yards or less. I previously tried most of the powder listed in this thread, but RL #7 seemed to perform best in my Marlin. Might be our consistently cooler temperatures or maybe even the rifle itself. Who knows, but it likes RL #7.

My 45/70 is not microgroove, however I do have other Marlins that are. As previously posted, properly sized bullets are key to accuracy with these barrels. I would not hesitate to buy a MG Marlin for cast bullet shooting.

I will mention one more slightly off topic thing about Marlins. If despite your best efforts, you just can't get it to group cast bullets worth a darn but it seems to shoot jacketed bullets just fine, then you need to check the barrel for a slight choke or restriction wherever there is a dovetail cut into the barrel. If present, it will NOT be visible to the naked eye, however you can find it by running a tight patch down the previously cleaned barrel feeling for an increase in effort, or some resistance to the patch and marking your cleaning rod with a sharpie when you feel that constriction. It's usually the worst at the Magazine hanger dovetail, but also noticeable at the rear sight dovetail. I have noted this defect in a number of Marlins over the years, both with Microgroove barrels and modern ballard rifled ones. This constriction does not seem to have any detrimental effect on jacketed bullet accuracy, but if present, really opens cast bullet groups up big time. The good news is, that if you do have a constriction it can be cured with less than 50 rounds of fire lapping using reduced loads and cast bullets.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:09 PM
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My best 405 gr cast bullet load for my Marlin 45-70 has been 25 gr 5744; mild load, quite accurate. This from a rifle with Ballard style rifling. My experience with the microgroove rifling and lead bullets has never been good (other than in my Mdl. 39 in .22 lr).

Last edited by wb4ky; 02-18-2014 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:51 AM
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Another 4 year old thread brought back from Zombie land...
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:32 PM
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Yikes, and its MY fault... sorry, didn’t even notice the OP post date..
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Old 10-26-2014, 10:56 PM
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I like the 500 lee cast bullet also. Do you use it to hunt? I have used the RCBS 405 GC cast in past hunts of elk and love it. Thinking about changing to the 500 Lee.

Thanks
navig8r


Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
In my original trapdoor Springfields I have used the Lee 457-405F cast bullet with 26 grains of IMR 4198, standard primers, and a 2-grain tuft of dacron fiberfill under the bullet. Velocity is estimated at about 1100FPS, and my standard sight settings work well out to 200 yards. Recoil is negligible in the 11-lb. +/- 1884 Springfield.

In my 1886 Winchester I have gone up to 38 grains of IMR 4198, standard primers, and a 2-grain tuft of fiberfill. Velocity is estimated at about 1600 FPS. Recoil is brisk. This load shot through a bull elk from just behind the ribcage, through the lungs, and breaking the offside shoulder (about 4 feet of penetration) for an instant stop from about 80 yards.

I cast these bullets with a 50/50 mix of wheelweights and linotype metal, lubed with Alox but not sized (.459 lubri-sizer die). Actual weight is 388 grains, actual diameter .4582", with that metal. I have cast a few hundred of pure linotype that would be better for the heaviest charges, finished weight 370 grains, diameter .4585".

The fiberfill under the bullet provides good protection to the bullet base and is fully consumed. Either of the above loads will provide groups under 6" at 100 yards in my vintage rifles.

I have since gone to the 500-grain Lee gas-check mold which also works very well in the .45-90 Winchester and .45 2-3/4" Sharps.

I hope that your Marlin has standard cut rifling. The MicroGroove barrels do not handle cast bullets very well according to most reports.
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Old 10-26-2014, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer1911 View Post
You used the ugly M-word -- microgroove rifling. I had a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag. Could not hit a 5-gallon bucket at 50 yards with lead bullets, but it shot 2" - 3" groups at 100 yards with jacketed bullets. Both bullets were 240 gr SWC.

If its hour-of-angle (60 times bigger than minute of angle) accuracy with lead bullets you have 2 choices: jacketed only or get a newer lead friendly rifle. My Quigley by Taylors Arms does great with AA 5744. 8# jug is almost gone !!
I made sure to avoid the microgroove in mine.
Then I got into powder coated cast.
It's solved some of the most vexing problems across so many guns I have to wonder if microgroove will be the one to break it's back.
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Old 10-27-2014, 06:46 AM
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H322 is my "go to" for heavy .45/70 (and .450 Alaskan) loads.
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Old 10-27-2014, 08:49 PM
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Microgroove can be worked with. Go oversize with cast and it puts 'em on target!

I have a 1894 44 MG. I size to .431 and Bob's yer uncle!
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Old 10-27-2014, 10:22 PM
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Here's a pic of my 200 yard target from a few years ago, using a Uberti Hiwall 45 70 and 405 gr. cast wheelweight mix and 36 grs. of 3031. I was a bit off center.
Recently I got a Browning 1886 45 70 and going to try it out with the same loads, hopefully tomorrow.
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:19 AM
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I have a Marlin 1895 "Cowboy" rifle and the following loads have worked well in it. My alloy is the Lyman #2 mix.

My "everyday" load for the Marlin is the 300 gr. Saeco bullet (a plain base bullet at +/-310 gr. with my alloy), 15.0 gr. of IMR Trail Boss powder, CCI #200 primer in Remington brass. Velocity = 1,213 fps.

My 405 gr. lead or cast bullet load is either my 420 gr. Cast (Lyman # 457193) or the LaserCast bullet, 28.5 grs. of XMP 5744, CCI 200 primer in Remington brass. Velocity = 1,425 fps. This load will get your attention in the levergun, but recoil really isn't too bad.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:36 AM
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Very interesting... Since my previous post I have sold my Guide Gun and replaced it with a Rossi 92 in .44 Magnum. I still load .45-70 for a friend who insists on heavy bullets and high velocity. We shot his Guide Gun just yesterday and he loves to let other shooters at the range use it so they can experience the recoil. Well, all the brass is starting to show signs of case head separation. He never sorted his brass or kept tabs on how many times they had been fired and now he may as well throw them all away. So yeah, you can hot rod the .45-70 but you pay for it with case life, just like with everything else.

Dave Sinko
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Old 11-17-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sinko View Post
Very interesting... Since my previous post I have sold my Guide Gun and replaced it with a Rossi 92 in .44 Magnum. I still load .45-70 for a friend who insists on heavy bullets and high velocity. We shot his Guide Gun just yesterday and he loves to let other shooters at the range use it so they can experience the recoil. Well, all the brass is starting to show signs of case head separation. He never sorted his brass or kept tabs on how many times they had been fired and now he may as well throw them all away. So yeah, you can hot rod the .45-70 but you pay for it with case life, just like with everything else.

Dave Sinko
No real need to, what makes the old 45-70 still a good sub 200yd hunting rig. At 1600fps, not much is walking off with one of these. Really pleasant to shoot out of a GG too.
The OP needs a copy of the Lyman $49 if he shoots lead bullets in anything.


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  #31  
Old 11-19-2014, 02:38 PM
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Default 45-70 loads

I have had terrible luck with the microgroove rifling I my 45-70s. I had a friend gift me some great boolits in may weights and could find no accurate loads in any of them except for a couple hundred cast with a Lyman 457 122 hollow point mould. They shot great. So I bought one of those and they still shoot good out of my Ballard rifled gun that a got a couple months ago. And happily the other boolits he gave me also work just fine in the newer gun. He gave me 90 lbs or so and I think I am fixed for life. He also gave me another 80 lbs of 38 and 40 cal cast sized lubed boolits that I guess I will have to remelt into other calibers as I don't have a 38-55 or any 40 cal rifle..and will not get one anyway.. I did check the size of the boolits and the 45s measured 458..I did try drilling the base of some of the 405 gr bullets to make a hollow base(approx. 3/8 inch). Worked in the microgroove but too much trouble. BTW I also like the 5744 powder and I have quite a bit as I also use it in my Savage smokeless powder muzzleloader. Another great shooter. I also use 4198 and Reloader 7 will try some H335 as I have 20 lbs or so of it

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Old 11-24-2014, 06:56 AM
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405 hard cast flat tip and 14.5 gr.of Unique 1400+ fps. Faster than factory Remington 405 corelokt. Kill anything in North America. Unique is not position sensitive and doe's not need fillers. 2" or less 100yds.

Last edited by jeeps; 11-24-2014 at 06:58 AM.
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