I use HP-38 for pretty much all of my handgun loads in all calibers. Yes, there are some that a a little better for some, especially in the higher magnum loads, but HP 38 gets it done for 99% of my needs.

Say there was no more HP-38/W 231 what powder from any maker would be as versatile as HP-38?

380 auto, 9mm, 40SW, 45ACP, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Mag

Not just going by the burn rate chart. What powder would be a direct substitute or replacement, if there is one. Charge density, flow, consistency etc.???

Just off the top of my head I am thinking Unique, but what do you all say??

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Still Running Against the Wind

Yeah probably Unique. I often lump W231 and Unique together in my mind, though I tend to use Unique in revolver loads and W231 for semiautos. Power Pistol might be a contender also, but honestly let's just hope they never stop making W231. It's a great powder.

Sir, Unique isn't a direct replacement (charge weights will be different), but it's certainly versatile. If I could have only one pistol powder, Unique would be it. I've had good results with it in .44 mag and special and .45 Colt and ACP. I haven't used it any of the small bores, but I understand it's good in .38/.357 as well.

You might also think about Bullseye, particularly if you're mainly sticking with mild loads. Like Unique, it's not a direct replacement for 231/HP-38, but is quite versatile.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

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Wishin' don't make it so.

Unique is a great powder and I use a lot of it. I chose 231 to replace Bullseye, but I suppose you could go the other way if you could not find 231/HP38. You might also want to look at Red Dot.

I wont hesitate to recommend Green Dot. Similar charges often yield similar results for me. in fact in the 9mm I use the exact same charge as HP/231.

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too TOO young!!

I think metering would be a major issue with most of the flake powder suggestions so far. From most of what I've read, people use W231 or Bullseye. It's just a matter of choice, but I tend to use Bullseye.

I recently switched from using W231 for 45 acp and 45 colt to Unique. W231 & HP38 did disappear for the last 2 years, or at least I couldn't find any. It's close to W231 and I like it.

How about AA #2, Red Dot, or Bullseye. Or even Winchester Super Target.

How close do you think AA #5 is? I have never used any of the AA powders.

Bullseye sure does meter well and do not have to use a lot of it.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Absolutely, without question, Ramshot ZIP. It's DARN near a load-for-load replacement for W231 in my loads. In fact, I'm going to test a pound of it, and if it is less smokey with cast bullet loads, I may switch to it anyway, but I've got a LOT of 231/HP38 to get rid of first...

WST is a very close contender, but it's not as close of a one-for-one load-by-load replacement for 231 as ZIP is. But, WST is a good powder, clean and round for easy metering.

However, all this talk of W231/HP38 going away is a lot of hooey! It's one of the five most popular pistol powders on the market.

:-) We were posting at the same time!

AA#5 is a tad slower than Unique, so no where close to W231/HP38.

HP38/W231 is roughly in-between Red Dot and Unique in burn-rate, so, depending on application and burn rate of the particular lot # you have, 231/38 is anywhere from a lot to a touch faster than Unique, whereas AA#5 is always slower, usually noticeably so.

AA#5 doesn't like to be loaded on the light side of it's data at all. In fact, you can stick a bullet pretty easily by just making the OAL too long with a light load. Don't ask!


That being said, you can work up some wonderful loads with any one of the Accurate Arms powders. If I was going to replace HP-38/W231 though, it would be with AA#2 performance wise.

I have never used any of the Ramshot powders so cannot comment there. Looking at the burn rate chart, SR7625 is a good option. It isn't too popular but it is a good powder. Its flakes are smallish and meter well, similar to how Bullseye does.

Power Pistol is right there too and it works well. Other than being "flashy" it would be a good choice. I have used it in 9mm and 40S&W with really good results. Others use it for 38spl +p loads and really like it.

But, if you are worried about W231/HP-38 going away, I don't think so. One might, because of competing against itself is kind of silly until you factor in the "quirkiness" of us reloaders about component names and such!

That's exactly the powder I thought of when I read the original post question. SR7625 shares the ability of HP38/231 to meter well through a progressive press and get exact power factors for coompetition, a trait that Unique flake powder does not share.
Although the charge weights are less, Titegroup is a cousin of HP38/231 (according to the manufacturer) modified to be less position and temperature sensitive, with competition shooters in mind.

I have used SR7625 only minimally. It seems to be a good powder, I use it's cousin, SR4756 much more.

The only problem I have with Titegroup is it's density. So little of it weighs so much that a normal 4.5gr charge could be tripled and barely be noticeable. That is slightly exaggerated but partially true to. It would fit in a 45ACP case, but most would notice it!

Hodgen Universal. It is as flexible as unique and burns cleaner. It is a do anything powder, and works well with everything from 25acp to the big magnums. It is good for light/medium loads and slow enough for pretty fair velocities in the big magnums.

What started me thinking about this (always dangerous) was I was going to order some primers and wanted to get 8lbs of HP 38. Of course everywhere I look, they have one but not the other

So I was thinking of some alternatives and trying not to be so powder "dependent". I do not like nor need a whole bunch of powders which is why I settled on HP 38. For my needs it works.

I did not think it was "going away" just a availability thing. Kinda like Winchester primers, I like them but still try to find them.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I just ran a comparison between Hodgdon HP38 and Accurate #2 on QuickLOAD using a 124gr FMJ bullet in the 9mm Luger. Max loads were only .1gr apart, and velocities were within 10 fps. Plus both are spherical powders that measure very well. I've used Accurate #2 for years now, and it's performance is outstanding. YMMV.

(Additional Info: I just checked Ramshot Zip with QuickLOAD, and it's performance is computed to be almost exactly the same as Accurate #2.)

OCD, I wish we were closer and I would sell you an 8 pounder of HP-38.

Another good powder that meters as well as HP is AutoComp. In my loads it requires 3/10 grain more in 9mm and a 1/2 grain more in 45 ACP but the results have been excellent.

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too TOO young!!

Bullseye, in my opinion.
Steve

Appreciate the offer , wish I was a bit further North also. I could get your bullets also and enjoy some better weather than the brutal sub tropics. I do not even enjoy going to the range. Maybe an hour is all I can take.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Thanks! Have you used it or run it through the puter for other calibers?

Edit:

I just downloaded the Accurate Powders load data 'Manual" and with exception of 357 and 44 mag, #2 will load anything else I shoot. So it looks like a prime candidate.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I totally agree W231/HP-38 and Zip are almost, if not exactly the same powders. Just a note, W231, HP-38 and Zip are all ball powders manufactured in the same St. Marks plant. Hmmmmm...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Seems Ramshot and Accurate are one and the same.

Same PO Box and address. Perhaps duplicate products like HP38 and W231 etc.

One of these days I need to drive across the State to the St Marks plant.

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Still Running Against the Wind

If you are thinking of an 8 pound keg, why not just order some from Powder Valley, Bruno's, Natchez shooter supply etc.? Then, you could have what you want. Usually you can get 8 pounds from one of the suppliers cheap enough that it will make up for the $25.00 haz shipping fee.

They don't have it in stock.

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Still Running Against the Wind

OCD, if you can get your hands on an Accurate #2 Reloading Manual, it has pressure-tested data for .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum using Accurate #2. I don't know why it's omitted from the online data.

In fact, one of my favorite .44 Magnum loads (when I still had a .44 Magnum...) was a Hornady 180gr HP/XTP at 1200 fps using about 10 gr of Accurate #2. This is the starting load for this bullet in the Accurate Reloading Manual #2, and duplicates the performance of an old CorBon self-defense load in .44 Magnum using the exact same bullet. Accurate, clean, and follow-up shots were easy.

Added: AFAIK, Western Powders produces Ramshot and recently bought Accurate.

Thanks, I downloaded it. Yes, the companies are one and the same.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Both companies are owned by Western Powders so yes, they are the same company now...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

There is a long convaluted story here, but the bottom line is that Accurate started in TN as an importer and re-labeller of foreign powders. Originally, they sourced them from Isreal (whose powder plant was set up by Olin way back when; the same Olin which set up the St. Mark's Powder plant -- before it was sold to General Dynamics -- so hence why AA#2 is so similar to W231), but Accurate would shop around to other places to get the bulk powders cheaper. Sometimes they got them direct from St. Marks, and before they sold out to Western Powders, they were getting a bunch of their powders from Czech Republic.

One of my biggest disappointments when Western bought out Accurate and took over their product line is that they ended the big reloading manual, and worse yet, ended the on-line edition of the big manual. Now, all there is on line or from Western is an 8-page flyer. Now, some of the best powder companies (including Accurate) started out with flyers for their load data, but I see what Western did as a backwards step. I understand the liability situation, but Western has a great ballistics lab, and they could have ran the loads in the manual in a year or so and put out a third edition with their own name on it, IMO...

Anyway, to clarify a couple things:

W231/HP38/SMP231 are the same powder made by St. Marks in Florida.

Titegroup's qualities of both density and burn rate make it no where near a one-for-one replacement for 231. It may be a "cousin" in that it's formulation, constituent parts, etc. are very similar, but it behaves differently than 231. I find it much more spikey in pressure, that it's not that accurate (ironic considering it's name), and it's max performance falls short of 231 (in terms of velocity). It's definitely a low-velocity target powder that reaches it's goals of insensitivity to positioning of low-doses of powder, but it's other (poor) qualities don't work for me. If I was a Bullseye powder fan, I might replace Bullseye with it, but I find them to much more similar in applications to each other, than Titegroup to 231.

AA#2 and Ramshot ZIP do not appear to be the same powder, but that is still open to debate, as I'm not 100% informed of the sourcing of both of them, now that Western owns both Ramshot and Accurate. They are very similar, as noted, and they are also very similar to 231. In fact, AA#2 is more of a cousin to 231 than Titegroup, as their application spectrum and performance are nearly identical.

HTH

Thanks for that background. Interesting stuff. As I mentioned. one of these days I am going to take a day trip and drive over across the State to St Marks and see if I can gather some info or maybe get a tour. I'll call first just to be sure. I like it over on that coast anyway.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Over here we tend to have powder availability problems now & again.

I mainly load .38 Spl, .44 Spl, .45 Colt, .45 ACP and occasionally light .357 Mag loads.
My favorite powder used to be W-231, as I could load all those calibers with it.

Now, I use VihtaVuori N-320 since it's more readily available & I've found that it is just as versatile in use as W-231 and pretty close to it in application/burn rate.

Always nice to hear from folks in different Countries. We have availability problems as well. I almost never see VihtaVouri around here and if there is any, it is usually more expensive.

Please send us some of your delicious food

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Still Running Against the Wind