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Old 10-08-2010, 09:57 AM
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Anyone duplicate Buffalo Bore 38spl +P 158LSWCHP? Anyone duplicate Buffalo Bore 38spl +P 158LSWCHP? Anyone duplicate Buffalo Bore 38spl +P 158LSWCHP? Anyone duplicate Buffalo Bore 38spl +P 158LSWCHP? Anyone duplicate Buffalo Bore 38spl +P 158LSWCHP?  
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Default Anyone duplicate Buffalo Bore 38spl +P 158LSWCHP?

I placed a order for general gun stuff and just for the heck of it ordered an expensive nox of 20 rds, Buffalo Bore 38 sp +P 158gr LSWC HP with soft lead and gas check.

Fired 10 rounds of it yesterday from my 442. The stuff is BRUTAL! Almost as bad as a 357Mag out of a alloy J frame.
I have 3 other brands of +P in 125 and 135 gr plus ones I reloaded and they are no where near the felt recoil of the BB.

I can not believe it is +P, feels more like ++++P.

Anyone pull one of these apart and try to determine what powder they use? Must be what you guys call the LOAD.
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:23 AM
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I have had the same experience you had but through a 637. I only fired three of them for fear either my hand or the cylinder might blow out. They are reserved for my 640 now as .357 seems a bit much but the Buffalo Bore is just right. I thought about pulling a bullet, but am not familiar with powders at a glance. That just isn't something I would want to "eye ball" test. To my eye Unique looks just less dull and a little darker than HP-38. That's not enough for me to say one over the other though.
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:09 PM
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I'll put the rest in my Ruger SP101
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:25 PM
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I think I remember seeing someplace that they are using a non-canister powder, so duplicating (safely) the results with the powders available is going to be unlikely. If that is the case, I wonder who they are getting it from and what all is involved with small ammo manufacturers obtaining it.

I also think part of it is that the recommended loads from the powder manufacturers, especially with relatively low pressure rounds like the .38 Special, are kept on the conservative side to allow for use in older guns that may not be in top condition and/or to allow for unforeseen variables introduced by some handloading practices.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:03 PM
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Read somewhere about them blending powders too, so it might be near impossible, 38+P++=.357 to me, and much cheaper to boot.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:06 PM
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There are some much hotter loads in some of the older Speer manuals using 2400, SR4656,IMR 4227 in 38 special which I have not loaded myself. They would certainly be real close to this BB load. I only have hard cast 158 gr LSWC with no hollow points. Guess it wouldn't matter

Some of the "Mad Chemists" around here load them.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD1 View Post
Some of the "Mad Chemists" around here load them.
HEY, I resemble that remark!

While I have never loaded a LSWCHP I have loaded some pretty stout 38spl loads. Loads that I will not shoot in an alloy framed revolver, period.

That being said, mixing powders is a risky business even for ammo manufacturers. I would rather think it is some kind of surplus powder, like WC820 or WC297 or any number of those in the AA#9 - H110 range.

Personally, with a steel framed revolver in good shape and in 38spl, I'm not sure you can get enough of a powder of that burn rate in a case that will cause a gun to blow up. Recoil and hit you between the eyes? Sure. Blow up? No. Now, if you were to put a fast burning powder, like say Bullseye or one like that, all bets are off!

I'm thinking that they use SR4756. The reason is ..... because I do! That's as good of logic as most have used here today!

Have fun, be safe.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
HEY, I resemble that remark!

While I have never loaded a LSWCHP I have loaded some pretty stout 38spl loads. Loads that I will not shoot in an alloy framed revolver, period.

That being said, mixing powders is a risky business even for ammo manufacturers. I would rather think it is some kind of surplus powder, like WC820 or WC297 or any number of those in the AA#9 - H110 range.

Personally, with a steel framed revolver in good shape and in 38spl, I'm not sure you can get enough of a powder of that burn rate in a case that will cause a gun to blow up. Recoil and hit you between the eyes? Sure. Blow up? No. Now, if you were to put a fast burning powder, like say Bullseye or one like that, all bets are off!

I'm thinking that they use SR4756. The reason is ..... because I do! That's as good of logic as most have used here today!

Have fun, be safe.
Gee how did you know I was talking about you??

What bullet do you use in "The Load"??
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Old 10-08-2010, 04:18 PM
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Here's some data I collected almost 3 years ago, but keep in mind the SR 4756 loads (aka The LOAD) were all shot out of .357s, not .38 Specials and not alloy frames.

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Old 10-08-2010, 05:09 PM
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Thanks Paul. I won't be shooting these BB's out of my 642 or 442 any more.

I can load some of the Unique and some of the 2400 loads from the old Speer data and see if they equally as brutal in the alloy guns, I know they won't break the Ruger as I have put some pretty hot 357 Mags through it.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD1 View Post
Gee how did you know I was talking about you??

What bullet do you use in "The Load"??
I used an H&G #290BB cast from wheel weights made right here at home! It is a 160gr BB SWC that was designed by Phil Sharpe. The nose ride on the lands. Very accurate.

That little pill comes out of my M60 -13 with a 3" tube @ almost 1100fps! Now THAT is a 38 SPECIAL!
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:18 PM
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I had high hopes for Power Pistol but I've been testing it the last few days and it just doesn't deliver, at least not with the 158 gr. cast SWC. With this bullet SR4756 is definitely the way to go, at least in my Model 64 snub. Just today 7.6 grs. gave me 975 FPS, which is as high as I care to go in this K Frame .38. Any more powder and cases will definitely stick.

But I did stumble across an interesting load combination. I just found some leftover 158 gr. FP plated bullets and tried them with heavy charges of Power Pistol. These bullets would not stabilize with moderate charges of 231 but heavy charges of Power Pistol are a completely different story. Accuracy is superb and velocity is the most consistent of any load I have yet tried. These bullets have a crimping groove and the plating does not separate when a heavy roll crimp is applied. The chronograph is telling me I should be able to at least equal the ballistics of the Buffalo Bore load in my Model 64. So... Does anybody out there use plated bullets for defense?

Dave Sinko
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:03 AM
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I've broken 1200 fps with 2400 and a 173 grain cast Keith SWC out of my 4" L-frame. While its not quite a magnum, its a lot heavier than load data one will find for .38 Special and its not something I would shoot in an Airweight. An SP101 on the other hand, isn't a problem.
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul5388 View Post
Here's some data I collected almost 3 years ago, but keep in mind the SR 4756 loads (aka The LOAD) were all shot out of .357s, not .38 Specials and not alloy frames.
Paul,

Just one question for you. I notice you are using a muzzle velocity correction factor of 25 fps. Is this just a guess, or is there some basis for this figure? The reason I ask is using Load From a Disk (LFD) the muzzle correction factor for a load at 1000 fps and bullet of .160 ballistic coefficient and a distance to front chronograph screen of 15', is only 6 fps. All 158 gr. SWC bullets fall in the approximate BC range of .150-.170, and anywhere in that range a load with the listed parameters will fall in this 6 fps correction, or so close that averaging gives the same figure in LFD.

If you are adding 25 fps to your MV figures as a correction you are going to get some pretty optimistic corrected velocities!
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Old 10-09-2010, 07:53 AM
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So... Does anybody out there use plated bullets for defense?

Dave Sinko
No in 38spl caliber.

Ranier 40 caliber 180gr PHP, which looks a whole lot like a Gold Dot.


I also use Rainer 147gr PFP in my 9mm carry guns. They are loaded to near 1000fps. I'm thinking 20 rounds of near "THE LOAD" ballistics is a good thing!
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
Paul,

Just one question for you. I notice you are using a muzzle velocity correction factor of 25 fps. Is this just a guess, or is there some basis for this figure? The reason I ask is using Load From a Disk (LFD) the muzzle correction factor for a load at 1000 fps and bullet of .160 ballistic coefficient and a distance to front chronograph screen of 15', is only 6 fps. All 158 gr. SWC bullets fall in the approximate BC range of .150-.170, and anywhere in that range a load with the listed parameters will fall in this 6 fps correction, or so close that averaging gives the same figure in LFD.

If you are adding 25 fps to your MV figures as a correction you are going to get some pretty optimistic corrected velocities!
This is getting way to complicated for me and I took lots of higher math in college (I think)
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Old 10-10-2010, 12:56 AM
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I actually use a program to calculate the MV from instrumental velocity. However, if you look on page 386 of Lyman's 48th Edition, you'll find a BC of .213 for the 358156. On page 338, the 358477 has a BC of .286. A little heavier bullet, the 358429, has a BC of .286.

So, if we just use a BC of .2 the 1077 fps instrumental becomes 1104 MV. Since I only came up with 1102 fps MV, I must have used a lower BC than .2.

The program is called "Remington Shoot!", which is a free program, which is available here: Remington Shoot Ballistics Software
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Old 10-10-2010, 03:36 AM
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Hey Mad Chemists,

Long time no see. OCD, here is a link to some duplicates of the BB load.

Cheers,

Mike
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Old 10-10-2010, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoptob View Post
Hey Mad Chemists,

Long time no see. OCD, here is a link to some duplicates of the BB load.

Cheers,

Mike
Thanks Mike! Shows you where my mind is (or was) I read your original post and even posted in it. Must be getting old. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.
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Old 10-11-2010, 11:16 PM
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C'mon, OCD, man can't remember everything. It was a long time ago.

Awhile back I asked Tim Sundles if 442 will stand up to his load. His said that the gun will, but hinted that I'd be better of with his non +P load. I shot it in my 442 anyway; it's a handful and recovery was painfully slow. Really like it in my Detective Spl though; it's one of my favorite carry combos.

Mike
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoptob View Post
C'mon, OCD, man can't remember everything. It was a long time ago.

Awhile back I asked Tim Sundles if 442 will stand up to his load. His said that the gun will, but hinted that I'd be better of with his non +P load. I shot it in my 442 anyway; it's a handful and recovery was painfully slow. Really like it in my Detective Spl though; it's one of my favorite carry combos.

Mike
Even though the alloy 442 and 642 are +P rated , I really do not think his BB load is a +P. Without any data to confirm or deny, I would say it is well beyond +P whatever that may be. It is certainly beyond any other factory +P loads that I have purchased or loaded myself.

When I tested it at 5 yards, first few missed my 5" target, I tried double tapping and forget it. My Speer GD and Remington GS went right where they should.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
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I placed a order for general gun stuff and just for the heck of it ordered an expensive nox of 20 rds, Buffalo Bore 38 sp +P 158gr LSWC HP with soft lead and gas check.

Fired 10 rounds of it yesterday from my 442. The stuff is BRUTAL! Almost as bad as a 357Mag out of a alloy J frame.
I have 3 other brands of +P in 125 and 135 gr plus ones I reloaded and they are no where near the felt recoil of the BB.

I can not believe it is +P, feels more like ++++P.

Anyone pull one of these apart and try to determine what powder they use? Must be what you guys call the LOAD.
Someone on the Ruger board got the same 158gr. SWC HP GC from Rim Rock Bullets and put ....better yet, Ihope he doesn't mind me quoting him: TERRY is one of the moderators.....

Trying to duplicate the Buffalo Bore 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWCHP-GC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I used a Rim Rock bullet that is very similar if not the same bullet that Buffalo Bore uses. I chose Power Pistol powder and had previously worked up from what was listed as min to max in the Speer Manual so I chose the +P max load of 6.0 gr which had previously had not caused me any pressure issues and was consistent.

I brought my chrony to the range, set up and proceeded to fire 5 Buffalo Bores, and 5 of my loads from my SP101 and recorded each reading after firing 5. I then proceeded to fire 5 each from my LCR and record each. The results from the BB were impressive averaging 1037 FPS in the SP and averaging 1017 in the LCR. I didn't see unburns and the loads didn't show any excess pressure signs in either revolver. My loads chronied an average of 936 FPS in the SP and 894 FPS in the LCR and did not show signs of excess pressure in either revolver but were not quite as snappy as the BB's. The only problem I had with my reloads was for some reason my 38 Spl sizer die wasn't putting a very strong roll crimp on the Rim Rocks and was adjusted as aggressive as I could get it. I quickly checked a random loose RR bullet when I got home for size and it was right on at .357 so the next time I'll use my 357 mag dies and see if I can get a little more consistent and agressive roll crimp as they are newer dies.

The load is what it is because I am at the top and other powders listed in Speer are listed as generating slower bullet speed. I'm still down from 100 fps to 124 FPS from the factory so they obviously are using a different powder but the two loads seemed to shoot to the same point or about an inch below point of aim at 7 yards.

It was an interesting exercise and although I didn't match speed the loads will be good for practice and not a bad alternative to the $2.00 per cartridge for the Buffalo Bore's.

Trying to duplicate the Buffalo Bore 38 Spl +P 158 gr LSWCHP-GC - Ruger Forum

The Buffalo Bore loads (+P) are evil! Designed to do the job! In my LCR and 642 I carry the std. load. My SP101 has the +P (for indoor use).

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Old 11-27-2018, 03:32 AM
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Brian Pierce wrote in Handloader, 6.3gr PP and the Rim Rock bullet do duplicate the BB load. He said It was SAAMI pressure. Probably all the way against 20,000psi.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:27 PM
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It's not difficult to get at or near-.38-44 performance (around 1100 ft/sec) from any of the mid- or slow powders using 158 grain lead SWC bullets. The old Lyman handbooks contain such recipes using both Unique and 2400. I used one of the really old Phil Sharpe .38-44 recipes (10 grains of duPont SR 80 bulk powder, long obsolete, replaced by SR 4759) and was getting around 1100 ft/sec, chronographed from from my Combat Masterpiece. All these loads were considered safe to use in any .38 Special revolver back in the day, and that should still be the case.

Sharpe's top Unique load was 6.6 grains with a 158 grain bullet, MV from a 6" barrel given to be 1130 ft/sec.

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Old 11-27-2018, 05:37 PM
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Getting those figures out of a 6 or even a 4" are doable.........

it is when some try to get every fps out of a 1 7/8" snub nose, that bad things happen.
Sometimes..................
close is very good.
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:00 PM
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My belief is that such hot loads from a lightweight snubby produce too much recoil and muzzle blast to retain control. More modest MVs will easily do the job up close. Ask Jack Ruby about that. I once tried shooting hot .38 Special loads from a 442, never again.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:11 PM
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I shoot +P 125gr from my 637 pretty regularly, and while they are spicy it's not too bad. That said, they were 125gr at ~825fps from a snubbie, so they are nowhere close to BB levels.

As I posted in Hoptob's thread, if you google "Four High-Performance .38 Special Handloads" our own bmcgilvray posted a great thread on another forum that has 2400 and 4756 loads that emulate the BB load.

Last edited by dr. mordo; 11-27-2018 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:28 AM
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BB 158 gr swchp are rough even in their non +P loading out of my 638. Doable for self defense but rough on the hand after a box of em. Won't be getting the +P's to shoot in my 638 that is for sure and have no desire to find a load to duplicate it. If I need that much i will be getting 357 mag and a steel framed snubby with some heft to it.
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Old 11-28-2018, 07:20 AM
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Haha. My experience shooting BB’s 158 gr out of my 4 inch model 10 told me I would never attempt these rnds in an alloy j frame. It is close enough to 357 magnum in felt recoil. Great FBI load though. I intend to buy more at some point.
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Old 11-28-2018, 07:51 AM
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Buffalo Bore loads are not a thing, generally, I would even want to duplicate. I tend to go the other way. I want my SWC's light, clean and accurate enough for me. For that, I load about the middle road on the Hornady data for Titegroup. I load light for .38 and .44-mag. It makes them splendid shooters. For hot loads, I load .357-mag and .44mag. But loading mags is rare for me. I don't shoot much of it. I'll buy a box of magnums when I'm trout fishing in bear country. In Tennessee, you never know when you will have to defend one of our bears fro a Yankee tourist.

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Old 11-28-2018, 08:28 AM
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I’ve had a similar experience w/Buffalo Bore +P ammo and decided it’s better suited to a K frame size revolver. Even their standard pressure loads are pretty hot.
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  #32  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule3 View Post
There are some much hotter loads in some of the older Speer manuals using 2400, SR4656,IMR 4227 in 38 special which I have not loaded myself. They would certainly be real close to this BB load. I only have hard cast 158 gr LSWC with no hollow points. Guess it wouldn't matter

Some of the "Mad Chemists" around here load them.
Like the 1970 Speer Reloading Manual #8 .....It was my first Speer Manual and I used it for many years. My only 38 special / 357 Magnum was a Ruger Blackhawk , thank goodness .
We just believed Speer knew what they were doing and went with the data . Exciting times back then !
Gary
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:48 PM
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I think you can get sim vel with Longshot pushed to +p & a little more.
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:44 PM
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My re-loading skills are fair, but I would not try to duplicate that load personally. I have wanted to buy that very load from Buffalo Bore. My Rugers (SP-101 & Security Six) would handle it, no problem. So too, undoubtedly, would my Model 19-4, but my 19-4 is my baby and I only fire in the 19-4 what I test in the Rugers first.

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  #35  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:14 PM
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"As I posted in Hoptob's thread, if you google "Four High-Performance .38 Special Handloads" our own bmcgilvray posted a great thread on another forum that has 2400 and 4756 loads that emulate the BB load."

Thanks for the esteem shown the thread Dr. Mordo.

I posted a variation on the theme with the same data here on Smith & Wesson forum.


Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

It was great fun to accomplish at the time.
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:25 AM
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Rule, glad you posted this, I have the same box of BB, haven't had the cahones yet to fire them off. I do have a SP101 and a 4 inch Rock Island that is an anvil and should handle it fine if my old hand will, LOL.
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
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I placed a order for general gun stuff and just for the heck of it ordered an expensive nox of 20 rds, Buffalo Bore 38 sp +P 158gr LSWC HP with soft lead and gas check.

Fired 10 rounds of it yesterday from my 442. The stuff is BRUTAL! Almost as bad as a 357Mag out of a alloy J frame.
I have 3 other brands of +P in 125 and 135 gr plus ones I reloaded and they are no where near the felt recoil of the BB.

I can not believe it is +P, feels more like ++++P.

Anyone pull one of these apart and try to determine what powder they use? Must be what you guys call the LOAD.
I have always said you can't get something for free. If ammo is claiming to be within SAAMI limits yet delivering considerably more velocities than any other ammo something is wrong. Both can not be true.

I can't believe Speer, Rem, Win, Federal and all the others can't figure how but BB can.

No, not bashing Buffalo Bore, just being sceptical.
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  #38  
Old 11-30-2018, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeintexas View Post
Rule, glad you posted this, I have the same box of BB, haven't had the cahones yet to fire them off. I do have a SP101 and a 4 inch Rock Island that is an anvil and should handle it fine if my old hand will, LOL.
I believe the Rock Island is not approved for +P, so I'd verify that before I shot the possibly +P+ BB in it!
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Old 11-30-2018, 12:58 AM
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BB is pure voodoo! They must stand on the grave of Marie Laveau at midnight to come up with the loads they produce. That stuff is hotter than the hinges of the theological place of eternal torment and it doesn't matter what caliber you're using! JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:40 AM
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I'm thinking maybe Buffalo Bore actually has the pressure testing equipment and does a LOT more pressure testing of their production ammo than the other companies manufacturing the more "bulk rather than boutique" ammo.
That would explain why the other companies load their +P on the conservative end of the scale - leaving a bigger margin for error (variance) than Buffalo Bore. I'm thinking BB ammo is loaded right at the ragged upper edge of the pressure spec, and they do a lot more QC to make sure every batch is right at the top of - but not above - the max SAAMI spec.
That would add significant cost to the manufacturing process - which would explain their boutique pricing, as well as their "edge of the envelope" performance.

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Old 11-30-2018, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucev View Post
BB is pure voodoo! They must stand on the grave of Marie Laveau at midnight to come up with the loads they produce. That stuff is hotter than the hinges of the theological place of eternal torment and it doesn't matter what caliber you're using! JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.
The velocities have been documented over and over. BB would not go over SAAMI specs for if they did and blew or damaged a gun approved for +P loads or even standard load out of a non +P rated gun they would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit so large they would fold up and blow away in the legal winds. It is basically custom ammo with custom powder not suitable for public use. Hence the cost shows when you purchase it.

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Old 11-30-2018, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
I'm thinking maybe Buffalo Bore actually has the pressure testing equipment and does a LOT more pressure testing of their production ammo than the other companies manufacturing the more "bulk rather than boutique" ammo.
That would explain why the other companies load their +P on the conservative end of the scale - leaving a bigger margin for error (variance) than Buffalo Bore. I'm thinking BB ammo is loaded right at the ragged upper edge of the pressure spec, and they do a lot more QC to make sure every batch is right at the top of - but not above - the max SAAMI spec.
That would add significant cost to the manufacturing process - which and would explain their boutique pricing, as well as their "edge of the envelope" performance.
Pretty sure this is what the deal is. The so-called plus p ammo from the big outfits barely meet what standard ammo was back in the day
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Old 12-01-2018, 04:32 AM
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Not all American ammo companies comply with SAAMI pressure limits. It's not required in this country.
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Old 12-01-2018, 02:36 PM
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Not all American ammo companies comply with SAAMI pressure limits. It's not required in this country.
You are right that compliance isn't mandatory.

However, I would be surprised if any manufacturer chose not to comply - for liability reasons.

Do you have any documentation showing that any commercially manufactured ammo exceeds the applicable SAAMI spec?
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