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Old 10-19-2010, 09:25 AM
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Question Will Moly cause leading

To clarify this question--Will switching from Moly coated cast bullets to non-moly coated cast bullets cause leading if the moly coating in the bore is not cleaned out?
Up until this summer I was using cast bullets in my 44 Spl's and Mag's.

S47B,Lipseys 44Spl,50th Anniversary Flattop,and S&W 624. Leading was not a problem using 240-250 cast bullets with Unique. Also they all shot great.

A friend gave me some cast 240RN's that he moly coated,brand unknown. So I loaded them up and started shooting them and they shot pretty good. Then I switched back to NON MOLY coated bullets and got leading. After 20 rounds I get severe leading in the first 1-2 inches of the barrel. Also acuracy went south real fast. I got out the chore boy and the Lewis lead removal tool and cleaned out the lead. Followed this up with Kroil,CorrosionX and M-Pro7.

Went back to the range and the same thing happened. Much more of this and I can sell the strips of lead the chore boy cleans out.
My loads are only 6.8 of Unique in the specials and 8-10 of Unique in the mags.

I understand all about bullet dia.,bore dia.,hardness of alloy used and all that. These loads shot great before now the leading. So am I not getting the moly coating out? If that is the case what would the suggestions be for a bore cleaner to get the moly out?
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:14 AM
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Moly is some very tenacious stuff. The only thing that I have read that works on removing it is JB Bore Paste. But look at the bright side, at least it's handguns and not long rifle barrels.
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Old 10-19-2010, 03:27 PM
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I'm not claiming to be an expert, this is just what I've read.

Once you go moly, you can't go back. It does give higher velocities if used on your bullets but once your barrel gets coated with it it actually acts as an abrasive with non moly bullets resulting in lousy accuracy, excessive fouling and...pretty much what you are finding.

I had bought a box of moly bullets before I'd heard this, but read it before loading them. I dumped them real fast and avoided them like the plague heeding the old wisdom of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". All of which means that I don't have a clue what to use to try and clean your barrel out.
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Old 10-19-2010, 03:37 PM
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Will Moly cause leading ?

Moly causes moly, better off with lead causing leading .
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:30 PM
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I have shot Moly bullets in my 1000 yard rifle and in my service rifle.

I have shot moly and non moly bullets on the same day with no problems.

Even though I use Moly I still clean my barrel and chamber after the days shoot.

I think most of the problems with moly happen when some shooters think they never have to clean their barrels once they start shooting moly...
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:17 PM
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I have never found Brownells to sell something or claim something that does not work as advertised. You decide for yourself.

BROWNELLS : J-B NON-EMBEDDING BORE CLEANING COMPOUND - World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools
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Old 10-19-2010, 07:23 PM
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Greetings
Are the non moly bullets of the correct diameter ?
If they are under cylinder throat diameter that could be the culprit.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Missionary View Post
Greetings
Are the non moly bullets of the correct diameter ?
If they are under cylinder throat diameter that could be the culprit.
The non-moly bullets shot great beforehand,minimal leading. I guess the moly coating left in the barrel is acting like an abrasive.
The bullets were free,the friend just didn't care for that weight in his rifle. He also gave me 200 or so Laser Cast 300grTC .431dia. WITHOUT Moly. I'll probably never use those.
Guess time to get some J-B Bore Paste.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:08 AM
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I almost bought a box of 40 SW lead Molly coated bullets. They where on sale as the shop was going out of business. I bought all the regular lead ones for a steal.

I posted on another forum and asked a Master Gunsmith about the Molly who warned against them for the very reason you are posting. He is the one who recommended the bore paste.

I have a tube of it as it is great for once or twice a year cleaning, takes out anything and leaves the bore nice and clean.

Send me a PM with your address and I will send you a "blob" of it if you want to try it. You do not need the oil that comes with it, any oil will work.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:25 PM
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OCD1 Thanks for the offer to send some.

But I went out this morning and found some J-B at the local shop. Time to break out the brushes and patches again.
Thanks to all for their suggestions.
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:40 PM
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Wonder if the moly built up in the rifiling to the point where the bullets can not engage it fully and are stripping as they pass through the barrel and not spinning up and that is causing your loss of accuracy. Moly is a lubricant not an abrasive. Either way that **** needs to come out of there.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:55 PM
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Poeple that use it and don't clean will find that out. We has a BUTT HEAD at a high power match split the barrel because he didn't clean that junk out of it.
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:45 PM
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I don't have any experience with moly coated handgun bullets but shot benchrest rifle for several years. At one time, nearly everyone was using moly bullets in their 6mmPPC benchrest guns. Cleaning was typically done with J-B bore paste and a 50/50 mixture of Kroil's and Shooters Choice (or your favorite solvent). The benchrest shooters stopped using moly when it was found that the moly builds up in the leade of the rifling and can't be removed. I ruined the fine accuracy and required barrel replacement. Not sure how this applies to handgun shooting but I don't use moly anymore.

In rifle shooting, you would have to increase the powder charge to return to the same velocity achieved with non-moly bullets.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:02 PM
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A little moly trivia.

A friend loaded his service rifle practice ammo on a progressive machine.

One time he loaded a few rounds with no powder.
When fireed in his match 223, naturally the rounds stuck in the barrel...

Later he had switched to moly coated bullets.

Again he loaded some rounds with no powder...

When fired, these bullets cleared the barrel...

As an experiment he loaded a few more on purpose with out powder. Again they all cleared the barrel...

Makes me think that moly does indeed reduce friction.

I do know my barrel is cooler when shooting moly bullets.

If I remember correctly Norma tested moly bullets in their 6.5x55 loads and barrel life was almost doubled.

My barrels copper and powder foul a lot less with moly bullets.

You can shoot many more rounds before accuracy starts to fade...

It makes it unnecessary to clean between relays, to maintain accuracy.

I just clean at the end of each days shooting.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:33 PM
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The heat from the powder probably fuses it to the throats and barrels.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:15 PM
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Alot of pulp fiction, urban legend & plain old hear say going on in this thread.

The moly residue can easily be cleaned out of the bore with a metal polish called never dull.

Moly isn't abbrasive, it's the exact opposite, that's why people use it. It makes the bore slicker causing less friction & keeps the bore cleaner longer. The theory behind it is the bore gets coated from shooting the moly coated bullets. Because it coats the bore & makes it smoother the next shot down the tube will clean out the fouling from the prevous shot keeping the bore clean longer.

There's alot of products out there that take avantage of what moly can do. Engines, drillbits, bearings ect, less friction equals stays cooler & longer lasting parts.

I don't use moly coated bullets, I treat my bbl's & other gun parts with moly instead. The moly actually gets into the pores of the metal that creates a film that is extremely slippery. I can actually feel the moly starting to work as I treat a bbl with it. And you talk about beautiful smooth as silk triggers, just plain sweet.

If I work on something or get it broke in then I like to treat the finished product with moly. The moly makes the work even smoother & makes the metal parts last so much longer.

One of the more surprising thing that I treated was a 1911. After I got done I put a progressive spring that had a 24# max rating in it. Then I took it to the range & ran 5 10 round mags of ammo threw it as fast as I could pull the trigger. Afterwards I grabbed the bbl with my bare hand & it was cool to the touch.

I've treated many bbl's with moly & another great place is the front of cylinders & the top strap/forcing cone area. Man these areas clean up so much faster & easier.

Yes I still get some leading in my bbls. It just takes alot longer to have them lead up & there easier to clean.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:02 AM
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As I said, I don't know much about moly, so I started looking at some information on the web and found this. Take it for what you want, I'm still not an expert.
RSI - More On Moly
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:43 AM
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Here is some more "brain food" Towards the end of the report I like the use of "gel type dishwasher detergent" for removal.

I also like the addendum #3 about Kroil oil which debunks common internet usage of it.

Sprinco USA -- Truth about Moly
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:24 AM
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Well I used some Kroil to try and break it up and the J-B Paste on the 624 and the Flattop Mag. Going to go to the range to check the results of my labor.
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:21 PM
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Ok things are a bit better. I tried 6.7 of Unique with a 240RN in the special and 8 of Unique with a 240SWC in the mag. 50 rounds through the special and 60 rounds through the mag. Both bullets are from the now defunct National Bullet Co.,I got these before their quality and service went down the tubes.
These bullets measured @ .430 and pass through the cylinders fairly easy. So I might try to up the load a bit to see if they bump up a bit to seal the bore. If not I will be looking for some .431 size bullets.

Accuracy was decent for me @25 yds and stayed consistent through all the shooting. It would probably be better once I get an eye exam and new trifocals. I still have some minor leading in the first inch or so but it brushed out easily when I got home.

I still have the Super and Ruger 44 Spec to cleanup with the J-B paste then see how they do.
Looks to me that you either go moly all the way or not at all,just don't mix them up.

Still have about 30 loaded of each caliber,maybe every once in awhile I will shoot a couple of them to use them up.

My thanks to all for the comments and suggestions to help me with this.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:11 AM
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Actually, there's a 3rd option, that's what I did & still do. I don't treat the bullets, I treat the bore & other parts that are effected by leading/lead splatter. I shoot lead bullets almost exclusively out of my pistols. When I'm just out plinking/blasting it's easy to run several hundred round down the tube in a short period of time. Theating the metal with moly makes my bbl's last longer before leading up & clean up of all the parts so much easier.

When I say treating the metal, I mean using a moly/oil solution, heating the metal & introducing the moly into the pores of the metal threw the oil and friction. Friction (applying moly oil to a cloth/patch and rubbing it on the metal to be treated). On the face of a metal surface, simple rub it with a cloth. A bbl, use a tight patch. A trigger group, apply the oil directly & pull the trigger repeatedly.

I can see the metal turn a different color as the moly gets into the pores of the metal. I can also feel the difference, the cloth will have less drag, a tight patch in a bbl will suddenly push threw the bbl with alot less effort & trigger groups will act like I finely greased/oiled them, their trigger pulls that much different.

I myself don't like the idea of treating bullets, to many bad things can happen. Treating the metal on the other hand is harmless & a blessing.

Some of the things that everyone uses today that have been treated with a moly solution, drill bits. That's why you see them marked 5x, 10x ect. It's not solely the metal their made out of, it's the friction/heat reducing moly they've been treated with. Auto engines are another great example. New mfg methods make the parts with better tolerances & the moly treatment doesn't allow those parts to wear. Think about it, a motor with no break in period & has a 100,000 mile warrantee. Back when I started driving, I was lucky to get 100,000 miles out of a motor. The upper end usually gave up the ghost first.

Just some food for thought. Other industries are finding uses for moly with excellent results. Gee, I wonder if the firearms industry could use a product that would allow tighter tolerances for the moving parts of their firearms. Allow less wear to those moving parts, make their parts last longer and function smoother for the life of that firearm along with making their firearms easier to clean/maintain.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest r View Post
Actually, there's a 3rd option, that's what I did & still do. I don't treat the bullets, I treat the bore & other parts that are effected by leading/lead splatter. I shoot lead bullets almost exclusively out of my pistols. When I'm just out plinking/blasting it's easy to run several hundred round down the tube in a short period of time. Theating the metal with moly makes my bbl's last longer before leading up & clean up of all the parts so much easier.

When I say treating the metal, I mean using a moly/oil solution, heating the metal & introducing the moly into the pores of the metal threw the oil and friction. Friction (applying moly oil to a cloth/patch and rubbing it on the metal to be treated). On the face of a metal surface, simple rub it with a cloth. A bbl, use a tight patch. A trigger group, apply the oil directly & pull the trigger repeatedly.

I can see the metal turn a different color as the moly gets into the pores of the metal. I can also feel the difference, the cloth will have less drag, a tight patch in a bbl will suddenly push threw the bbl with alot less effort & trigger groups will act like I finely greased/oiled them, their trigger pulls that much different.

I myself don't like the idea of treating bullets, to many bad things can happen. Treating the metal on the other hand is harmless & a blessing.

Some of the things that everyone uses today that have been treated with a moly solution, drill bits. That's why you see them marked 5x, 10x ect. It's not solely the metal their made out of, it's the friction/heat reducing moly they've been treated with. Auto engines are another great example. New mfg methods make the parts with better tolerances & the moly treatment doesn't allow those parts to wear. Think about it, a motor with no break in period & has a 100,000 mile warrantee. Back when I started driving, I was lucky to get 100,000 miles out of a motor. The upper end usually gave up the ghost first.

Just some food for thought. Other industries are finding uses for moly with excellent results. Gee, I wonder if the firearms industry could use a product that would allow tighter tolerances for the moving parts of their firearms. Allow less wear to those moving parts, make their parts last longer and function smoother for the life of that firearm along with making their firearms easier to clean/maintain.
How are you applying the heat and at what temp. before you coat it in moly? The process sounds interesting.
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:23 AM
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I'm not heating anything real hot, around 130*. I was putting everything in a oven or of all things, just using a hair blow dryer to heat something hot to the touch. I just wanted to open the pores of the metal. Others have heated what they were doing hotter than that. Some people just applied the moly at room temp & let it sit for a couple of days.

Do a search on molybdenum disulfide treatments, you'll find alot of products out there. Bronnell's even sells a moly paste, you should read what they have to say about it. I also like the paste products. They're not expensive & easy to use. I like to use 3 & 1 oil with the paste. The light oil acts as a medium to transfer the moly to the metal. I dilute the moly paste in the oil, the oil/moly solution has very little moly in it & looks like oil with a coloring added to it. The other moly/oil solution I use is like a runny paste, it has more moly paste in it than oil.

It's a simple enough process to apply moly to something. I heat the metal & apply a coat of the moly oil to the surface of the metal getting it wet. Then I use the moly/oil paste, put some of it on a cloth & rub the paste into the metal. I rub it till the metal cools & then I repeat the process again. It normally takes 3 to 4 treatments for the moly to be built up enough in the pores of the metal to make a excellent lubricating film on the metal that will last.

Anyone who's interested in what moly can do to metal should buy some 3 in 1 oil & some moly paste to give it a try. It'll cost around $10 for the paste & oil. Grab some scrap metal & give it a try by treating a small area on that scrap metal. You'll be amazed of how much smoother/slicker the metal is where you treated it compared to the plain steel. You'll also be able to visually see the difference in the metal. The treated area will be a little darker than the non treated area.

If you want to have a real eye opener, get a small section of steel pipe. Heat in up & get a tight fitting patch on the end of a cleaning rod. I mean tight, so tight you can hardly push the tight patch threw the pipe without pounding on the end of the cleaning rod with a hammer. Put some of the moly oil on the patch & get the inside of that pipe coated with the oil. Then put the moly paste on that tight patch & run that back & forth in the pipe. You will feel when the moly starts working, that patch that would barely go threw the pipe will easily slide threw it as the moly starts to coat the inside on that pipe. That's what it's like when I treat my bbl's, trigger groups, ect.

For $10 give it a try on some scrap metal, if you like what you see try it on a firearm. If your not sure start out with a old beater pistol. Take that pistol out & shoot 4 to 500 rounds of lead ammo in it & give good cleaning. Then treat the bbl, cylinder face & throat, the top strap & forcing cone area. Than it out & shoot another 4 to 500 rounds of lead ammo threw it. Take it home & clean it again, you'll be amazed at how much easier it is to clean after treating the pistol with moly.

The only thing that I've found that can be harmfull when treating firearms with a moly solution is treating the chamber areas. DON'T DO IT!!!! The throat & bbl's on rifles,yes. Just not the chamber itself. The same thing with semi-auto pistols. NOT THE CHAMBER!!! With revolvers I treat the front of the cylinders & from the flame cut circles forward in the cylinders themselves. NOT THE WHOLE CHAMBERS IN THE CYLINDERS!!!

You can get away with treating the whole chamber/cylinders on firearms that shoot rimfires because of the low pressure of that round. Anything that has a high chamber pressure (mags, hp rifle ect) needs the shell casing to grab the side walls of the chamber. Treating that area with moly make it sooooo slippery that the shell case can't grab the chamber walls & bad things can happen.

When I treat my bbls/cylinders with moly, I use never dull afterwards to clean the areas where I don't want the moly just incase any moly accidently got on those areas. If your not sure about never dull, treat a scrap piece of metal with moly & the clean the moly off with the never dull. You can visually see and feel that the never dull will remove the moly.

Good luck, enjoy & be safe
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:38 PM
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Thanks for all the info. I'll be giving it a try. Think I'll chrono some rounds before and after for comparison.
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