Powder question

David LaPell · #1 12-07-2010, 01:59 PM

A while back I was given three cans of powder, an unopened can of Unique, a can of 2400, and a can of Bullseye. The problem is that the can of 2400 is nearly full, but it was opened. I poured out a little of some 2400 that I bought new and then a little from this opened can on a piece of paper next to it. They appear to be identical in every way. But is there any powder that looks just like 2400? Right now in my neck of the woods, you cannot get 2400, period. No one has it, and everybody has it on back order. I am not worried about the Bullseye since it is not a powder I use.

NKJ nut · #2 12-07-2010, 02:11 PM

If powder has been opened I wont use it myself or even give it away because there is no good way of being certain what it is. For example that powder that you think is 2400 could be Bullseye. That would be an awful mistake to make. Throw it out.

n4zov · #3 12-07-2010, 02:15 PM

+1 to what NKJ nut wrote. You don't really KNOW what is in the cans. Using that powder goes in the same category as using somebody else's handloads - I don't do it.

Acorn1754 · #4 12-07-2010, 02:25 PM

You can always try to pour out small, equal amounts and put it outside and light both on fire and just see if they have the same burn rate. Since you have bullseye and can test to see what that one burns like. Now it's not exactly scientific, but if it burns like 2400 and not bullseye, you can start with really light loads and work your way up. I don't see any problem with that as long as you're careful and have a lot of patience. Now I do agree that the safest thing to do is not use it, but I believe that enough testing and starting off really light isn't that unsafe of a option either (IF and only IF you know what you're doing and feel comfortable doing so).

ken158 · #5 12-07-2010, 02:28 PM

You were given the powder therefore you have nothing invested. I would dispose of both opened cans without thinking about it. Blowing up a gun or yourself is not worth the risk.

NKJ nut · #6 12-07-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acorn1754

You can always try to pour out small, equal amounts and put it outside and light both on fire and just see if they have the same burn rate. Since you have bullseye and can test to see what that one burns like. Now it's not exactly scientific, but if it burns like 2400 and not bullseye, you can start with really light loads and work your way up. I don't see any problem with that as long as you're careful and have a lot of patience. Now I do agree that the safest thing to do is not use it, but I believe that enough testing and starting off really light isn't that unsafe of a option either (IF and only IF you know what you're doing and feel comfortable doing so).

Like you say, "not very scientific". Also what are you going to use to measure the burning rate? A visual impression of how the powder burns could mean exactly nothing. For this reason I feel that this is a very bad idea. And for what? To save the price of a pound of powder. It would be better to buy a new container of 2400 even if it means paying the haz-mat to get it, rather than risk destroying a gun or getting hurt.

m1gunner · #7 12-07-2010, 02:42 PM

Make good use of your unknown powder. Sprinkle it in your flower garden. It is an excellent fertilizer.

Acorn1754 · #8 12-07-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NKJ nut

Like you say, "not very scientific". Also what are you going to use to measure the burning rate? I feel that this is a very bad idea. And for what? To save the price of a pound of powder. It would be better to buy a new container of 2400 even if it means paying the haz-mat to get it, rather than risk destroying a gun or getting hurt.

Well, you can lay out a line say 6" long of 2400 and Bullseye (since he has no use for it) and maybe another powder and light one end and you can see the burn rate. If the powder looks identical and if it burns at the same speed test after test for a set distance as known 2400 does and there's a noticable difference from that of the Bullseye, you start to get a real good idea of what it is. Then if you load super light and do the same with the known 2400 powder and have a chronograph and get the same velocities, it starts to become very apparent what the powder truly is. And when I say light, I mean down to levels that the fast powder would be safe to be used at and don't put a crimp on the bullets to further reduce the pressure. There's plenty of testing that can be done to give yourself enough confidence to start to do some extremely light test loads. Now is this more work that most people would want to do, oh I'm sure it is, but if 2400 is that hard to get over there, it just maybe worth the while to invest a good chunk of time, energy and effort into this. Now if the burn rate isn't lining up exactly like your known powder, throw it on a ant hill and set some ants on fire or whatever other fun can be thought of.

growr · #9 12-07-2010, 02:53 PM

Do you trust the person that gave it to you? If so, I would probably use it. If not, then there have been several suggestions offered for disposal.
Randy

acl864 · #10 12-07-2010, 03:00 PM

A pound of powder is not worth it. If you aren't 100% sure, throw it out.

TAROMAN · #11 12-07-2010, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m1gunner

Make good use of your unknown powder. Sprinkle it in your flower garden. It is an excellent fertilizer.

+ What he said. Just don't chance it.

Rule3 · #12 12-07-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krehmkej

+ What he said. Just don't chance it.

But it's way more fun to burn it.

chief38 · #13 12-07-2010, 06:20 PM

Good advise guys, toss it!

After my friends Dad passed away, he came over one evening with a box full of shooting and reloading supplies. There was powder, primers, and loaded unspecified ammo (no markings what so ever). I got rid of the powder, pulled the bullets apart and dumped the powder, but I did save the primed cases and bullet heads for future use. I feel comfortable about using the primers in the boxes because they are still in the original boxes and clearly marked. I would not and have not shot reloads that some one else has made even if they were marked.

chief38

ArchAngelCD · #14 12-07-2010, 06:53 PM

No matter how much you want to use that powder that's marked 2400 I would agree, toss it. Only one way I would use it, if I knew the reloader who owned it was as careful as I am and there would be no way a powder other than what's marked on the jug is in that jug. If there is any small doubt what so ever I wouldn't take a chance, no matter how much I want that 2400 because it's not currently available where you are. (sorry, but you know deep down we are all correct on this one)

Catshooter · #15 12-07-2010, 10:31 PM

I will be the voice of disention.

There are no powders faster than Bullseye/Internation Clays. So, let's say you want to use the 2400 in a .44 Mag. Load some test rounds with the "2400" as if it were Bullseye. Shoot them over the chronograph. What happens? The worst that can happen is the powder is Bullseye equivilent and you get Bullseye speeds/pressures.

Then work up from there.

I obtained 24 pounds of an unlabeled rifle powder for almost no cost. I guess the posters that said "Throw it away" would have. But I used my head, and worked it up carefully, starting out as if it was a Bullseye level powder. Turns out it was 4831. I put five grains under a 255 grain bullet (in a 45 Colt) and fired it in a strong rifle.

Bullet went about three inches down the bore. So I worked it up from there. And ended up with a whole lot of powder that was almost free.

This was right about when Obama was elected and powder was high and dang hard to find.

David, remember the old saying when it comes to things like this: A small percentage of people think that they think, a small percentage of people can think, and the majority of people would rather die than think.

Your methods and results may vary.

Cat

ArchAngelCD · #16 12-07-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catshooter

I will be the voice of disention.

There are no powders faster than Bullseye/Internation Clays. So, let's say you want to use the 2400 in a .44 Mag. Load some test rounds with the "2400" as if it were Bullseye. Shoot them over the chronograph. What happens? The worst that can happen is the powder is Bullseye equivilent and you get Bullseye speeds/pressures.

Then work up from there.
Cat

First off you are very wrong about International Clays being as fast as Bullseye, it's just plain "Clays" which is the fast powder. I would be very careful when giving advice on powders if you are going to make mistakes like this. Hodgdon has 3 Clays powders, Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. (in that speed order with Clays being fastest)

Now, as for using the powder to see if it's fast or slow, I can't agree. A charge of Bullseye is normaly 3 or 4 grains. In a 44 Magnum a starting charge of 2400 us in the 20 gr range. A 20gr charge of Bullseye would blow up a revolver.

NKJ nut · #17 12-08-2010, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catshooter

There are no powders faster than Bullseye/Internation Clays.

VV N310 is faster than Bullseye. Many powders are faster burning than International Clays.

n4zov · #18 12-08-2010, 11:01 AM

At this point opinions seems to be running about:

80% - don't use it, it isn't worth the risk
20% - it is too valuable to throw out - use it

Looks like decision time.

ray45 · #19 12-08-2010, 11:21 AM

Toss it! Toss it! Toss it!

Paul5388 · #20 12-09-2010, 02:11 AM

You know, I have some pretty old powders and most of them were in opened containers. I have shot the majority of them and didn't experience anything out of the ordinary. That may be because most people aren't in the habit of mixing powder or mislabeling what's on their bench.

It should be obvious that 2400 doesn't look anything like Bullseye, so that's absurd to even compare with. However, 231, WST, WSF, HS6, Lil'Gun and some others resemble it quite a bit. 2400 isn't a ball powder, but it does look similar. If it's loaded as if it was a light load of 231, the bullet may not make it out of the barrel, but that's where to start.

Wildcatters do something similar all the time, since they don't have any data to work from.

I can buy fertilizer for a lot less than $20-$25/lb. You use powder that has gone bad for fertilizer, not good powder.

Steve C · #21 12-09-2010, 03:56 AM

Do you have any real reason to suspect that the powder in the can isn't the powder put there by the factory? Unless the person who gave it to you was a complete wing nut or had reason to cause you harm there's not too much chance that the powder isn't what it was labeled.

Personally I'd use it as it was labeled and not worry about it but some people envision all sorts of conspiracies and imaginary dangers and if you are of that sort do what makes you feel good.

aphelion · #22 12-10-2010, 12:32 PM

If you use it, just test the loads in a Ruger.

Corpsman · #23 12-10-2010, 12:47 PM

IMHO - You are going to use components (bullet - primer) to test the powders burning rate. By time you are done, the cost of wasted components and the work involved will offset much of the cost of new powder. When in doubt, throw it out.

Paul5388 · #24 12-10-2010, 01:23 PM

The cost of "new" powder isn't an issue if it isn't available in David's area.

The cost of a few components is also negligible, especially since only a cast bullet should be used in testing (easier to remove if stuck in the barrel).

Then one should also figure out how many cut tube powders are that small, without being a flake. The only one I'm familiar with is 4227 and it's a longer tube (the Australian variety is even a different color).

W231 doesn't look anything like 2400, since it's a flattened ball powder and none of the other ball powders I have look anything like 2400. While it isn't prudent to try to identify a powder by its looks, looks can certainly tell you what it isn't.