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Old 11-23-2010, 02:18 AM
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Lightbulb LEAD vs JACKETED (bullets) only the facts please

In a previous thread I learned that some ppl believed that lead bullets
were no more of a risk then jacketed bullets, (for reloading and target practice).

I would really like to see links regarding these issues.
Links that have really help you making your informed decision about what you shoot.

I don’t want to hear the I've done it for 50 years and I am still here diatribe.
I know ppl that have used narcotics, smoked cigs, and drive fast (an they have no issues).
THATS NOT THE POINT! I want the facts not esoteric opinions!

I currently use jacketed bullets for my reloading hobby and practice ammo.
I see that lead (cast bullets) are much MUCH more affordable.
I just have concerns that I will compromise my health to save a buck.
I don’t want to avoid cast bullets from my misdirected fear...
and I don’t want to use cast bullets if I am ill-informed...
please help...

Can you give me facts &/or reasons in support of one or the other... ???
Thanks in advance...
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Old 11-23-2010, 02:28 AM
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from what I understand, just taking some precautions is all that is needed.. Just like with anything that can cause health risks, sun exposure, to much drinking, driving on friday night, eating at MC D's, drinking to many sodas, or the other 1000's of things that can be bad for your health, salt I forgot salt, and the one thing that will definately cause premature death, a wife..

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Old 11-23-2010, 02:52 AM
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silvercn: Well, I have been reloading for 55 years........ oh, you said not to do that :-). ............ Well, then here is what I have been taught by others in my shooting career re. lead bullets;

1) Inside range with improper ventilation can put unacceptable amounts of lead chemical compound residue in the air.

2) Probably just as harmful is the combustion residue from most primers.

3) All lead residues are harmful and accumulative. i.e. you never get rid of what you have absorbed.

4) Exposure can be eliminated and/or reduced to acceptable levels by; shooting with good ventilation, casting lead bullets with good ventilation, wash hands with cool (keeps your pores closed) water and soap after every shooting event specially after use of revolvers, don't eat anything or drink open drinks during a shooting session and use surgical gloves while cleaning all handguns.

5) By using the above precautions, one can shoot lead bullets in revolvers for an entire lifetime without incurring any lead problems.

............ Big Cholla
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Old 11-23-2010, 03:31 AM
john traveler john traveler is offline
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I can only echo and reinforce Big Cholla's comments. I am also a long time and veteran shooter and bullet caster as are many members of this board. We know very few individuals that have suffered from the long-term exposure to lead and lead products. Outside of the lead mining and smelter operation industries, and before the current awareness of unventilated shooting range health issues, lead poisoning was a relatively rare health problem.

Please remember that the EPA and OSHA are relatively young creations of the Johnson administration of the middle 1960s. As a new Big Brother Government-Is-Watching-You creation of the bureacracy, they have done a lot of good, and also made a lot of questionable policies for public health. Many of their crusades are based on job security interests. Let's just say that removing lead from all paints since the late 1960s to avoid infants and children being exposed to lead toxins have been a good thing while worrying about lead exposure in public shooting ranges is one of their questionable actions. I have a surgeon friend with a private enclosed shooting range, and he has his blood lead levels tested every three months. Still normal, and still kicking after a generation of shooting hobbies. He is as likely to die of old age as any of us. I had a teacher neighbor who died in her fifties from blood poisoning contracted from working with fired ceramic pottery. Completely unexpected until I learned how toxic those materials were.

If you do a little research, you will find that a bit of common sense in our hobbies and working around lead materials goes a long way in helping to achieve our goals of dying at a ripe old age.
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Old 11-23-2010, 04:35 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Question Wrong type of forum to ask these kinds of questions!

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Originally Posted by silvercn View Post
I don’t want to avoid cast bullets from my misdirected fear...
I agree with your statement here. When you go to a gun forum and ask the questions you are asking about lead, what kind of answer do you think you are going to get from the average shooter?

What, do you think we all hold degrees in medicine or something?

If you have real concerns, go to a medical website, your own doctor or the hazardous materials website, if there is such a thing.

I have shot for years and years, almost 100% lead, I cast too. It wasn't until I shot in competition, indoors, with poor ventilation that my lead levels came up to a near dangerous level. No symptoms, just had it checked when I had a physical. It is just another test they do on the blood. Your doctor can prescribe the same thing. When things start to elevate, stop using lead altogether for a while.

Believe it or not, I had a friend that used to work in a lead mine. They tested regularly and when things got too high, they put the men to tasks that didn't directly contact lead. Lead levels would go down, then they would go back into the mine.

Unless you eat it, suck on bullets as a nervous habit, shoot inside and stick your head in the smoke as it dissipates, you probably aren't going to have a problem.

Personally, I think you are more likely to have a heart attack worrying about it!

Take a chill and see your family doctor. Ask him to check your blood level now, and put you on a regular check once a year or bi-annually.

FWIW

p.s. You could be the only one at your range that is wearing a respirator while they shoot, but hey, stranger things have happened!
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Old 11-23-2010, 04:42 AM
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Skip, you CRACK ME UP!!

But your comments are right on!

Shooting sports, lead bullet casting and it's related possible health hazards are NOT for the Faint of Heart!
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:01 AM
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Good morning
I am 60. My dad was involved with casting. I watched pots get hot since I was 4 years old. First bullets I fired were lead. I have been using and making my own lead loads since I ETS´d from the Army in 1974.
My last blood workup about 6 months ago showed no lead problems.. actually I am well below the standard.
Those are the facts for me. I have no idea how many thousands of cast bullets I have made and loaded and shot.
This has been highly discussed at Castboolits site and there is no one there suffering from high lead count I know of... 10,000 + casters must have some idea about this.
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:18 AM
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I do all of my shooting out doors so I don't worry about it and OSHA and the EPA belong to Nixon not Johnson.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:13 AM
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The wisdom for a few hundred years was that as long as the body excreted lead faster than the body took it in you were fine. It was when lead started accumulating that you were in danger. Lead is one of the few minerals not found in the body naturally, so somewhere along the line EPA decided ANY amount of lead was dangerous. Along with the EPA many doctors postulated the theory that exposure to any lead, even as the body excreted the lead, would lead to lifelong learning disabilities. This is based on the observed fact that many inner city children have learning disabilities, they live in old houses and old houses have lead paint. Children eat woodwork, lick walls and scrape the paint off cupboards for a snack.

I was the Engineering Manager for a lead acid (auto) battery manufactuer, blood samples were taken on a quarterly basis. The OSHA limit was 40 ppm (properly). Smelting (litterally) tons of lead, cutting, grinding, pasting, etc lead on a daily basis only a few could not keep below the 40 ppm limit. And that was because the failed to clean thier hands properly.
Leaded gasoline was a REAL source of lead poisoning. People in large cities used to have lead levels exceeding 500 ppm in their blood stream. That's a fact and that is why leaded gasoline was outlawed. It is probably also the reason why most people in large cities have severe learning disabilities.
Lead testing and removal is now a multi-billion dollar business in the US. Government funding to educate the millions of children who ate the woodwork is big business.
Finally, the air filtration in indoor shooting ranges is dictated by the State and Federal EPA. Remember the standard is zero (or as low as modern scientific means can measure it). How much lead do you think is actually vaporized when a lead bullet is fired? At worse some is left on the barrel lands but I really doubt any is vaporized into the air. Certainly not enough to be measured. For those people who have had their blood lever checked and the findings were positive do a really test. Stay away from shooting for a month or two and get your blood checked. Then shoot lead bullets in an indoor range every day for a month and have it checked again. I’ll bet the difference is zero. The amount of lead in your body when you started wasn’t zero and it probably is the same when you finish.
So rather than asking people on a gun forum if lead is bad, do some research and find one or two studies were (say) 40 year workers in a lead acid battery factory where studied.

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Old 11-23-2010, 10:01 AM
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i think that as long you don't eat any bullets and wash your hands after using, you should be ok.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Originally Posted by Beemer-mark View Post
Finally, the air filtration in indoor shooting ranges is dictated by the State and Federal EPA. Remember the standard is zero (or as low as modern scientific means can measure it). How much lead do you think is actually vaporized when a lead bullet is fired? At worse some is left on the barrel lands but I really doubt any is vaporized into the air. Certainly not enough to be measured. For those people who have had their blood lever checked and the findings were positive do a really test. Stay away from shooting for a month or two and get your blood checked.
Well, Mark, I have to politely agree and disagree here. Following and dictation is two different things altogether. I know that our indoor range is neither controlled nor checked for that matter. Of course, I live in a rural type area now. No major cities within a 3 hour drive. I did grow up in Detroit and L.A so maybe the other part of your post I can agree with, you know, the learning disability thing!

As for the lead level going down, I can tell you that that is just what has happened to me. Shooting competition, lead bullets and indoor, there is much more vaporized lead in the air at those times than if you shoot by yourself.

10 guys on the line, each shooting 12 shots in 20 seconds and all with lead bullets can put a big cloud in the air. One that no air handler can manage. My blood level was 32PPM when I first had it checked. I was shooting competition every week and the range officer when I wasn't shooting. That meant that I was on the range even when I wasn't shooting. Then, I practiced at least once a week, which consisted of running the course of fire twice at least, plus my loads that I was working up for other things, plus reloading, plus cleaning brass, plus casting and lubing. So, I had my hands on a lot of lead and my lungs in a lot of vaporized lead.

I took a month off to see what would happen to my blood levels and they came down to 25PPM. So, I guess I kind of proved your theory, it does matter.

To the average shooter, under 100 rounds per session, by their selves in the range, you may not have a problem. The fact is though, shooting lead indoors does matter.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:54 AM
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"3) All lead residues are harmful and accumulative. i.e. you never get rid of what you have absorbed."

Not true as I found out. There is a treatment for it, involving cleaning (filtering) the blood of heavy metals. Sorry, don't know the name of the treatment.

I reload lead bullets almost exclusively. I take the simple precautions: Keep fingers away from face, wash hands afterwards (there is always "residue" on them), and after shooting, shower and wash clothing both of which would be needed regardless of bullet types.

I wouldn't concern myself with lead poisoning from reloading and shooting. It's the lead poisoning from being on the receiving end that's more of a concern!
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:14 AM
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Wash your hands after reloading or shooting and do not eat until you do.

Ventilation is good, more is better.

Wipe out the inside of, and blow your nose after a range session.

Keep lead oxidation and dust to a minimum, be carefull with any dust from the media if you tumble lead, and deprime before you tumble brass.

Bullets and priming compound are the 2 main sources of airborne lead so act accordingly.

/c
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:19 AM
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It's just more bs hype from uncle Sam. A misinformed world buys into it & then it can spin it to serve any purpose they desire.

As stated above leaded gas was the worst. Poor ventilation at indoor ranges are a concern, but not for reasons you think.

I'm more concerned with burnt plastic & breathing it at indoor ranges that lead. A lot of cast bullets just give off too much smoke when being fired. It's from the bullet lube & the powder being burnt. I've seen a lot of people shooting jacketed bullets in their guns have them release a lot of smoke when being fired also. Some powder makers use plastic as a filler for their gunpowder. You'd be amazed at the junk that comes out of the filters at indoor ranges.

Lead paint in houses is treated by just painting over it. To pass a section 8 inspection or have an older house inspected/treated for lead paint. They just paint over the old paint with new paint. The rule is no exposed/peeling paint.

When they find lead/lead paint outside the house they repaint that area. They put new topsoil over any contaminated soil. I can't remember anymore, it was either 2 or 4" of topsoil to cover the contaminated soil.

If you’re that concerned about using lead bullets than just don't do it. There have been a lot of proven problems with lead thru out history. It's like anything else, is the risk worth the reward.

Did the Romans have problems? Absolutely!!!! They used to eat lead as a sweetener & use it for every day table ware. Namely drinking glasses & the acid in the wine would dissolve the lead & they'd drink it.

The old tin cans. They used to solder the cans together with lead. Again the acids in the foods would dissolve the lead & people would eat it.

Leaded gas. Another great one, smog kills. Kalifornia had the major problems, have led the pack on stupidity of lead & will continue to do so forever. The major cities on the coast caused up to use unleaded gas. They can to this day take soil samples in the San Francisco bay & show you when they stopped using unleaded gas. The gas fumes would give anyone more lead in their bodies than anything else. And yes the smog is terrible there.

How many water lines are in old houses & feed the water to the houses. They're put together using lead. Even after they quit using lead to seal tin cans they still used it for tubes of tooth paste for years afterwards.

I'm not going to bother with what I've done/shot for years, it doesn't matter.

If you really want to know what the epa thinks about lead & their quest to help our health, just watch what they do. Actions speak louder than words.

Make no mistake about it, the epa will step over a old dump site filled with lead, lead paint & other numerous health hazards to get at a gun club/shooting range to shut it down because their putting lead on the ground which will leach into the water supply poisoning people for 1000's of miles around. They'll go to that town & tell everyone how bad it is & force the range to close down. But yet the epa won't shut that same town’s drinking water down even though there so concerned about that town’s health. Under the very ground that they stand on is drinking water pipes put together with lead. Go figure!!!

Like I said before, if you're that concerned about lead, just stay away from it. Myself, I’ll just make sure that I don't eat lead & wash my hands after handling it.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:01 PM
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Their respective risk is directly related to how you handle and use each of them. Certainly you can minimize lead exposure due to inhalation by not smoking during or directly after handloading (I imagine there are some idiots that may actually smoke during the loading process!), shooting, cleaning, and by washing your hands well with a good phosphate based detergent (that removes the lead by complexation) or one with a citrus base and mild abrasive action, like GoJo, after handloading, cleaning or shooting.

It requires somewhat less effort on your part to handle jacketed bullets for handloading since there is less direct contact with lead. However, you will notice that some bullets, e.g. 45ACP 230 FMJ from certain manufacturers, may actually have lead exposed at the base. While this minimizes overall exposure, there is still lead contact. Another potential source of contamination is brass cleaning, because the brass will have been exposed to lead from firing due to the lead styphnate priming material. It will be there whether you use jacketed or lead bullets, and is an area where you need to practice good handling to minimize both inhalation of dust and contamination of the area where you do it.

During firing, indoor vs. an outdoor range is a significant consideration, over only some of which you will have any control. Indoor range management of dust and powder residue is a factor as is their air handling/filtration system. A significant portion of the contamination residue just ahead of firing positions comes from primer combustion (lead styphnate) and powder residue. Whether lead bullets or jacketed ones are being used is possibly significant, but it is overall range use that counts rather than your specific contribution. Some of the "clean" ammo is using lead free primers and "totally enclosed" bullets, but it is still less common that standard except where some high usage training facilities have required it. On outdoor ranges, you would prefer to have the wind blowing away from you, but more significant exposure would occur if after shooting, especially after cleaning (remember the primer residue), if you did not wash your hands and possibly your face too before eating or smoking. Digging through the range backstop for bullets or picking up spent brass also increases risk of contamination.

Are lead bullets more prone to increasing your lead exposure? Certainly from a potential contact and handling perspective they could increase your exposure risk if you use poor handling techniques. But it is not as much a factor as how you practice range and loading hygiene methods.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:24 PM
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To add a bit to the above.
Lead can only be absorbed into the body if it is 1. finely divided or 2. in a soluble lead compound. You can actually eat a solid lead shot and it will pass through the body harmlessly and not be absorbed. (Ducks get lead poinsoning by eating the same lead shot because they have a gizzard and grind the lead into fine powder; you don't have a gizzard!)

All minerals in the body are naturally eliminated at a constant rate, so if your blood lead is too high, ceasing exposure will cause it to decrease, or you can get simple medical treatment.

The dust in an indoor range is easily breathed in and absorbed by the lungs. The worst hazard is sweeping the floor, which is why many ranges now forbid patrons to sweep up their brass. Cleaning the range is best done wearing a full gas mask. Due to the daily exposure, indoor range employees are the most likely to fail their lead test. An indoor range with inadequate ventilation is very hazardous.

Reloading and bullet handling is a minor risk; don't touch your face and wash your hands immediately you leave the reloading area. Casting bullets requires very good ventilation because of the soluble salts on old lead that boil off and should not be breathed.

Many of us that have been casting and loading lead for decades have been tested and found to have no significant blood lead. I have worked in a chem lab with things a lot more poisonous (like cyanide) than a lead bullet. Just don't beathe it or eat it.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:34 PM
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Well class, lets all go to the OSHA site and read what they have to say.
Some folks have already stated most of the facts. So wash your hands, arms and face after shooting. Take a shower and wash your hair and be sure not to buy any Chinese products.

I think one of greatest exposures is the media used for tumbling and cleaning brass. I read about folks who claim never to change it or use it for years! There is such a high concentration of **** in there, change it often. It's so cheap why not??

"Just the facts Mam"

Substance data sheet for occupational exposure to lead - 1910.1025 App A
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:34 PM
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Back in 1969 I swallowed a lead Benjamin .177 pellet and I'm still alive.

Lately though, have noticed that I have this prehensile "tail" growing at the base of my spine.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
As for the lead level going down, I can tell you that that is just what has happened to me. Shooting competition, lead bullets and indoor, there is much more vaporized lead in the air at those times than if you shoot by yourself.

10 guys on the line, each shooting 12 shots in 20 seconds and all with lead bullets can put a big cloud in the air. One that no air handler can manage. My blood level was 32PPM when I first had it checked. I was shooting competition every week and the range officer when I wasn't shooting. That meant that I was on the range even when I wasn't shooting. Then, I practiced at least once a week, which consisted of running the course of fire twice at least, plus my loads that I was working up for other things, plus reloading, plus cleaning brass, plus casting and lubing. So, I had my hands on a lot of lead and my lungs in a lot of vaporized lead.

I took a month off to see what would happen to my blood levels and they came down to 25PPM. So, I guess I kind of proved your theory, it does matter.

To the average shooter, under 100 rounds per session, by their selves in the range, you may not have a problem. The fact is though, shooting lead indoors does matter.
I believe that the lube has a larger cloud than lead bullets do. The average shooter is in much more danger from lead sulphate in primer dust than from using cast bullets, IMO. Armorers that only shoot jacketed have been diagnosed with high levels of lead from cleaning primer residue. Be very careful about tumbling media and how that is treated as far as putting particulates in the air and wash hands and face after reloading, shooting, casting and cleaning. Don't smoke, eat or keep open drink containers in a room when tumbling brass or casting or cleaning and you will test out as most of us casters do with a pb level of less than 10.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:27 PM
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Default Short Summary re: Lead for Handloaders

Don't sniff it, lick it, taste it, eat it, smoke near it, play with it or touch it more than necessary (and wash your hands really well afterwards).

[This advice can also be used for teens on prom night]
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:36 PM
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Here are a few more. Google is your friend.

Lead Contaminates Handout

February, 97 Lead

Bare in mind a lot of this is INDOORS.

http://pow.actarg.com/pdf/NIOSH_76-1...iderations.pdf
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Cholla View Post
3) All lead residues are harmful and accumulative. i.e. you never get rid of what you have absorbed.
No, lead levels are not accumulative. The body excretes lead from the blood stream in a process called "chelation". The body does this naturally but certain chemicals will speed up the process.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:17 PM
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Since you have a strong concern regarding lead hazards, a great starting point would be for you to be tested for lead.

I was curious enough, I got tested recently. My result was 3 ppm, and I am sure it was mostly from the 5 years I worked pumping gas with TEL. I don't even have a family physician. I just ordered the blood test over the internet and went to a local lab to have them draw the blood. $49 total cost.

I load extensively, and my past practices especially when loading shot shells weren't the best.

I don't shoot at indoor ranges any more just because I enjoy the great outdoors much more.

I wear a proper dust respirator when cleaning primer pockets. I deprime and clean primer pockets prior to tumbling.

I have zero concerns handling and firing lead bullets. This includes both centerfire rounds and 22 rimfire. And clearly my 3 ppm result shows it isn't causing my any lead build up.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:19 PM
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Well, I'm going to take the contrarian position here and tell the OP all to run as fast as he can away from any lead boolits, wheel weights, pure lead or anything else to do with casting. Not only are you poisoning yourself, but the envirnoment and anyone within a 100 yards of you. This is something definitely to be avoided at all costs, unless you want to kill yourself, your children and your pets.

Leaves more for me...
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:10 PM
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USING CAST BULLETS IS WHY ELMER KEITH DIED SO YOUNG.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:17 PM
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You may never shoot a cast boolet and you are in deadly danger from lead if you drink water that is obtained from a lake, stream or river. The EPA is so concerned about contamination of our water supply that they are seriously considering banning lead fishing sinkers, lead weights on seine nets, lead fishing jigs, lead paint on fishing lures, brass fishing accessories (brass is known by the State of California to contain lead and is hazardous), and anything else made of lead that may contact a lake, river or stream, or yea, this also applies to coastal waters.

Like the TSA, the EPA is your friendly government agency, that only exists to protect and help you.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:03 AM
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Arrow a mixed bag

Well, it appears that we have opinions and experience with a spattering of facts.
As much as I appreciate the feedback, I also roll my eyes at the few that vomited ignorance and insults.

But in the review of everyone’s talking points, I am learning more and more every moment.
I am not yet convinced that lead is the way to go,
but I am considering it as a viable option.

I just wish that some of those posting would drop the attitude.
It is ugly and not making your point heard...
assholes are just seen as assholes...
and their point is lost.

Thanks to those that honestly tried to relay their reasons and rationale as to why they use lead.
I think that it might be worth a shot... but still curious...

Your experience and knowledge is appreciated...
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
The word "lead" when used in this standard means elemental lead, all inorganic lead compounds and a class of organic lead compounds called lead soaps. This standard does not apply to other organic lead compounds.
Tetra Ethyl Lead is an organic compound and wouldn't be covered in the OSHA regulation posted. Tetra Ethyl Lead was used as an octane booster in leaded gasoline. Elemental lead, i.e. cast bullets, is basically inert and isn't absorbed by the body. The real culprits are lead oxides, which were commonly used in lead based paints, i.e. red lead used on board ship as a primer, not leaded gasoline, bullets nor priming compounds.

The common treatment for heavy metal poisoning, whether lead, cadmium, iron, tin, zinc and etc. is intravenous solutions containing EDTA (Ethylene Diamine Tetra Acetic Acid) or the sodium salts of EDTA. Chelate is derived from Chele, a Greek word meaning claw or pincher and EDTA has two pairs of active acetic acid groups that function as chelates. To keep it from being too active, the disodium salt is used many times.

If one would really be concerned, a check of the MSDS for lead will reveal the stannous component (tin) is much more dangerous (higher LD50) than lead. Page 4 of this pdf with give you Hornady's MSDS on their bullets, but they don't mention tin. http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/...llets_MSDS.pdf

Here's Rotometal's MSDS that contains a tin component. https://www.rotometals.com/v/vspfile...Lead_Alloy.pdf The higher the LD50 the less it needs to be concerned with. At 790 mg/kg, lead's LD50 is much less than antimony or tin.

There may be more danger in using stannous floride in tooth paste than lead bullets.

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Old 11-24-2010, 02:25 PM
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The "mixed bag" has been an enjoyable read.

Much better to enjoy the inane cleverness mixed with the excellent and thoughtful replies than to suffer from a chip on one's shoulder.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercn View Post
In a previous thread I learned that some ppl believed that lead bullets
were no more of a risk then jacketed bullets, (for reloading and target practice).

I would really like to see links regarding these issues.
Links that have really help you making your informed decision about what you shoot.

I don’t want to hear the I've done it for 50 years and I am still here diatribe.
I know ppl that have used narcotics, smoked cigs, and drive fast (an they have no issues).
THATS NOT THE POINT! I want the facts not esoteric opinions!

I currently use jacketed bullets for my reloading hobby and practice ammo.
I see that lead (cast bullets) are much MUCH more affordable.
I just have concerns that I will compromise my health to save a buck.
I don’t want to avoid cast bullets from my misdirected fear...
and I don’t want to use cast bullets if I am ill-informed...
please help...

Can you give me facts &/or reasons in support of one or the other... ???
Thanks in advance...
I have not read all the posts above, but I must assume that by "dangerous," you are referring to lead exposure concerns. Here's what I know: First, if all you are talking about is handling the bullets, the amount of lead that you can absorb from such handling is so minuscule as to be nonexistent for all practical purposes. Handling spent primers or inhaling the dust from removal of cases from vibratory or rotatory case polishers will expose you to MUCH more absorbable lead than will handling lead bullets. Use latex gloves if you are concerned, and there will be ZERO hazard in handling lead bullets.

As to exposure to airborne particulate lead, unless you are on a poorly ventilated indoor range, again, there is no danger. Outdoors, you simply cannot inhale enough to measure.

A number of years ago, we had some regular shooters at an indoor range hosting IPSC matches who got their blood lead levels checked. The ventilation at the range was good, but not great, and lots of the shooters used lead bullets. I shot indoor matches there a few times, and went away with a sweet taste in my mouth and blowing black snot out of my nose. The ONLY shooters who had elevated blood lead levels were ones who reloaded and smoked at the same time. They handled lots of primer residue, then handled cigarettes which went into their mouths.

It is primer residue, not lead bullets, about which you should be concerned, even though there is slightly more airborne lead from shooting cast bullets than from jacketed. Of course, if you are shooting FMJ bullets with an exposed lead base, you'll toss out as much lead or more than you will with cast bullets.

If you are talking about casting lead bullets, other concerns arise, and I've known a few bullet casters who developed serious health problems from inhaling lead "fumes" from poorly ventilated casting areas.


Wow! I just went back and read a few of the previous posts. Am now trying to figure out why the attitudes...

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Old 11-24-2010, 03:02 PM
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Cool I bow to your literary ability, dear friend!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
The "mixed bag" has been an enjoyable read.

Much better to enjoy the inane cleverness mixed with the excellent and thoughtful replies than to suffer from a chip on one's shoulder.
Having lost a point or two in my life because of being a tad on the instigating side and doing a good examination of the supposed offending body part, I don't think there are supposed to be points there. If there are points there, someone has a problem!

All levity aside, if we would have known that he was such a sensitive individual, I for one wouldn't have teased him at all!

I thought that good "banter" now and then added to the interaction on these kinds of forums. My bad.

'Course there always is the ignore option! I try to never use it though and for clarification, re-read my opening comment in this post!

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
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I think one of greatest exposures is the media used for tumbling and cleaning brass. I read about folks who claim never to change it or use it for years! There is such a high concentration of **** in there, change it often. It's so cheap why not??
IMHO, not only used tumbling media is a major source of lead exposure, the entire tumbling process is.

Some may think it's an overkill, but I thoroughly wash my fired brass before I tumble or deprime it.

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Old 11-24-2010, 03:33 PM
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[QUOTE=38-44HD45;135706715]... Use latex gloves if you are concerned, and there will be ZERO hazard in handling lead bullets.
Agreed.

As to exposure to airborne particulate lead, unless you are on a poorly ventilated indoor range, again, there is no danger. Outdoors, you simply cannot inhale enough to measure.

Don't quite agree here... I don't reload, but I do act as Range officer at Club falling plate matches, outdoor range, but not a lot of air movement. I have elevated levels, running 17-23 range, I get checked every 6 months. No other source i can think of, just the primer compounds and vapor from lead-based (not fully jacketed) bullets. Just my experience...
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:40 PM
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SKIP-Born Again John 17:17
I removed my rude comment because,
it was just uncalled for.
Skip is a decent guy.
=========================

Thanks I think this feedback and input is really knocking my misunderstood fear of lead bullets.
Not that they are harmless, but that with minor precautions, they are safe and affordable...

After I work through my 1000 jacketed bullets
($109 from tjconevera.com w/ free shipping)
I will order up some casted bullets...

Thanks for all the feedback and info!!!
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:22 AM
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercn View Post
(there may be hope)
=======================================[/B]

Not that they are harmless, but that with minor precautions, they are safe and affordable...

After I work through my 1000 jacketed bullets
($109 from tjconevera.com w/ free shipping)
I will order up some casted bullets...

Thanks for all the feedback and info!!!
Sometimes the methods are a bit questionable. Never sinful, just a bit odd for some folks.

If you need some bullets to start with, just let me know. I'll make up a care package and send you some! Free of charge, not even any shipping!

What caliber and weight? Be glad to help!

p.s. Sorry to have offended you.
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Old 11-25-2010, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Sometimes the methods are a bit questionable. Never sinful, just a bit odd for some folks.

If you need some bullets to start with, just let me know. I'll make up a care package and send you some! Free of charge, not even any shipping!

What caliber and weight? Be glad to help!

p.s. Sorry to have offended you.
I am humbled... I have new respect for you!
I did learn alot about casted bullets and am glad I asked.
I was really under the impression that it was hamful.
The combined knowledge of the group (skip included) was helpful.

I very much appreciate your offer and am very tempted to accept free bullets.
However, I believe it was the thought that ment the most.
So thank you for the offer... your a gentlmen!
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:13 PM
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Well, something we agree on! My gentlemanship! (Just kidding!)

At any rate and others can attest to this too, I have sent my bullets around free of charge before. Sending them to you would not be a burden.

I cannot over stress to be careful if you are going to shoot exclusively indoors. If you come away from the range with a sweet taste in your mouth and haven't done anything but shoot, you most likely have breathed in a little lead "dust", for lack of a better term.

Wash, don't eat, drink or smoke, and use rubber gloves when handling media when dealing with reloading or lead bullets.

All good advice.
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Old 11-25-2010, 07:55 PM
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I can attest to the fact that Skip makes some fine bullets and has generously shared not only his craftsmanship but also his knowledge with not only me but many other members of this forum.

I have learned a great deal from him (and others here) and feel it got me off to the right start in reloading. Of all things, he stresses safety and following the rules or recipes if you will. Making any change in the recipe will result in totally different results.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:51 PM
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One thing to remember is that unless you buy totally jacketed bullets
you will be exposed to lead anyway. Soft points and hollowpoints
have exposed lead. Most full metal jacket actually has lead exposed
at the rear-where the lead will be heated by the powder charge and
might cause lead vapors.

Honestly, until a year or so ago I never heard of anyone worrying
about this issue. If it is an issue for you then I would recommend
shooting outside and wear latex gloves.

Lead really won't be absorbed much by the skin, it is what you
might inhale that might count. Just my two cents.
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Old 11-26-2010, 01:10 AM
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Thumbs up

I am so glad I posted this thread.
I have gone from fear to reality!

I am pretty convinced that lead bullets are not a real concern.
I am suprise about my conculsion and realization.
Use caution and safety and lead is just a metal.

As much as I have resited Skip and his free bullets offer...
He has over whelmed me with humility and, ummm... niceness!

Thank you Skip........
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer-mark View Post
No, lead levels are not accumulative. The body excretes lead from the blood stream in a process called "chelation". The body does this naturally but certain chemicals will speed up the process.
Here is a narrative taken from "Healthy Homes Collaborative Magazine " article on lead.

Is there treatment for lead poisoning?

There is chelation (pronounced key-la-tion) therapy, which is dangerous and generally reserved for cases of high level lead poisoning in order to rapidly lower the blood lead level. Chelation removes lead and other minerals from the blood, but it may also stimulate lead that has been stored in the bones to be released into the bloodstream, which can actually increase the level of lead in the blood. Chelation can also remove important minerals from the blood, which can be fatal.

Can the damage from lead poisoning be reversed?

Lead poisoning is essentially a permanent condition, which involves quasi-permanent damage in that little or no recovery occurs. It is generally accepted that the cognitive damage from lead poisoning is irreversible. Lead is also known to reduce recovery from all types of brain damage. Currently, the only viable "treatment" is to prevent lead exposure by removing the lead source.

augy
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:33 PM
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I don't know about Healthy Homes, but the medical dictionaries certainly don't support their statements.

Quote:
Treatment
When heavy metal poisoning is suspected, it is important to begin treatment as soon as possible to minimize long-term damage to the patient's nervous system and digestive tract. Heavy metal poisoning is considered a medical emergency, and the patient should be taken to a hospital emergency room.
The treatment for most heavy metal poisoning is chelation therapy. A chelating agent specific to the metal involved is given either orally, intramuscularly, or intravenously. The three most common chelating agents are calcium disodium edetate, dimercaprol (BAL), and penicillamine. The chelating agent encircles and binds to the metal in the body's tissues, forming a complex; that complex is then released from the tissue to travel in the bloodstream. The complex is filtered out of the blood by the kidneys and excreted in the urine. This process may be lengthy and painful, and typically requires hospitalization. Chelation therapy is effective in treating lead, mercury, and arsenic poisoning, but is not useful in treating cadmium poisoning.
heavy metal poisoning - definition of heavy metal poisoning in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:13 PM
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Another alternative is the plated bullet. I shoot a lot indoors, and plated or jacketed bullets are required. I have no issues plinking with Berry's or Rainier Ballistics' offerings.

Even mildly elevated levels of lead are a problem for children and expectant mothers. Other than those special considerations, simple precautions are called for.

We know a lot more about heavy metal poisoning than we used to. The thought of cleaning my firearms while wearing nitrile gloves never would have occurred to me 35 years ago, nor would have Lyme disease.

We are constantly learning. I suggest one take the precautions they are most comfortable with - from full avoidance to no care at all.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:22 PM
flash60601 flash60601 is offline
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Through the length of this thread, slight mention was made of the dust of tumbling cases to clean them, and only one person mentioned washing the cases before tumbling them (which seems to be a good idea).

May I share a tip?
I have found that putting a (used) dryer tissue like "Bounce" into the tumbler with the cases seems to trap most of this crud, keeping it from becoming airborne when emptying the tumbler and shaking out the cases.

Flash
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:53 AM
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I rarely tumble anything. In 40+ years of reloading, I have found no real benefit to tumbling. That's providing you take care of your brass and don't roll it around in the dirt. It's harder to accomplish with bottom feeders, but a tarp goes a long way toward keeping things clean.



BTW, that's a new R-P factory load compared to the Norma that is about 40 years old.

Last edited by Paul5388; 11-30-2010 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:55 AM
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off to the dollar store I go.... dryer sheets on my list!


FYI(SKIP) ~ bullets recieved...
in a plastic baggie (zip locked)
wrapped in tin foil... with rubber gloves...
and my trusty bible pamphlet!
I am set now! SAFE AND SOUND!!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
I will load them up this weekend.
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercn View Post
off to the dollar store I go.... dryer sheets on my list!


FYI(SKIP) ~ bullets recieved...
in a plastic baggie (zip locked)
wrapped in tin foil... with rubber gloves...
and my trusty bible pamphlet!
I am set now! SAFE AND SOUND!!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
I will load them up this weekend.
Don't forget to use only USED dryer sheets that have been through the dryer. If not you will get nasty sticky stuff all over your brass.(don't ask how I know this)

Don't forget to practice safe reloading

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Old 11-30-2010, 05:32 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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ROFL!

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Old 11-30-2010, 06:16 PM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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Interesting discussion. The fact that people have lived long lives with bullets in their bodies that were never surgically removed seems to prove that metallic lead is not much of a danger to humans, but rather the various compounds - specifically the oxides.

I have always wondered if shotgunners are at any more risk than handgunners? Shotgunning is an outdoor sport of course, but on a hot summer day with no breeze blowing (or worse, one blowing into your face), with five shooters banging away at a fairly rapid rate, in a fairly defined area, sometimes the air can get pretty stagnant around the skeet or trap range. The type of projectiles might put one at a little more or less risk, too. Most of the discussions of this type seem to deal with handgun shooting.

I guess I never worried enough to get tested.
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Old 11-30-2010, 06:30 PM
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Interesting discussion. The fact that people have lived long lives with bullets in their bodies that were never surgically removed seems to prove that metallic lead is not much of a danger to humans, but rather the various compounds - specifically the oxides.
That's not entirely correct. Yes they live with a solid chunk of lead in their bodies. But that is not the same as absorbing lead dust into your lungs or ingesting lead which then enter the blood stream and then build up in the bodies tissues. Despite the whole chelation thing, heavy metals are stored in the bodies fat. Basically the same as Mercury poisoning. It builds up in the fish on the top of the food chain and then into humans when they eat the swordfish, salmon or what ever. Better to eat the little fishys.
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