What 225 to 250ish grain bullet would you use for penetration (bear discouragement) loaded in the 45 auto rim? I know that a 44mag is a better choice, but what's the best available for this caliber.

Since it won't be for everyday shooting I'd suggest looking at Buffalo Bore or Double Tap for their loaded offerings. Probably not cheap BUT your not looking to consume a large number of rounds either.
Just my $0.02!

That's probably extremely good advice.

Maybe I'll just pick up a box of these:
.45 Auto Rim +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

The best 225 gr. bullet is the Barnes XPB. I load it with a stiff charge of Power Pistol and easily get over 1000 FPS out of my 3" 625. I ignore the crimp groove and load this bullet long. Also, to get proper bullet pull I do not bell the case before I seat the bullet. Being .451" it gives a good tight fit and then I apply heavy taper crimp. It doesn't move under recoil.

I also use the 255 gr. SWC cast from the RCBS mold with a stiff charge of Power Pistol. I can get 915 FPS in the same 3" 625 and this would be my choice for bear country.

And I have the Hornady 250 gr. XTP loaded with the same charge of Power Pistol that the 255 gr. cast bullet gets. It's the most accurate and consistent heavy bullet I have used in a 625. I just obtained a box of the 240 gr. version XTP with the thicker jacket but I haven't tried it yet.

I case you haven't noticed I like heavy bullets in my 625s.

Dave Sinko

Dave,

That's awesome. I appreciate the advice. I wish I had the opportunity to cast. Any good commercial recommendations for a 255.

I will look into the Barnes. What powder is your favorite for it?

I have a four inch gun. I see a three and a five in my future!

Thanks,
QD

Personally, I like these bullets:


They are a homecast H&G #502, 240gr LSWC of the Keith type. I load them with a stout load of SR4756 from the Speer #8 manual and they run 1100fps from my M625JM, which has a 4" tube too.

The nice thing about the M625JM, it will take anything I have given it and put them all in the same hole, from mild to wild!

Here are some of the other bullets I have loaded in this cartridge:

These are 250gr muzzle loading sabots. I think the ones in the picture are T/C but don't remember. They are loaded long and have the same charge as the 240gr LSWC. Pretty sure they are around the 1000fps mark.
Then there are these:

The one on the right is a 270gr bullet I got a few from Paul5388. The one in the middle is the 240gr I cast and the one in between is the RCBS 255gr.

I also cast the 200gr H&G #68, second from left and the Lee copy of it, far left.

Just recently I started casting the 45Colt bullet, RCBS 45-270-SAA, but I haven't tried it in the Auto Rim yet. I have a hollow point mould and they will weigh in right at 270gr, 285gr in solid form.

Maybe this weekend!

Good morning
What kind of bear are you refering to ?
I do not think I woud be trying to descourage any bear that weights more than 400 pounds with a 45 unless it was a 45 Colt with a 270+ grainer at 1200 FPS. If bears are a real threat I would choose a 12 guage with round ball or solid slugs.
I own and shoot a 45 with Auto Rim and would not consider it much of a bear threat instrument unless it was all I had. I cast a Lee Flat RN that drops at 265 and I would not want to pop any bear that was looking at me ugly with that underpowered load even at a max load getting to 850 fps. Get a 45 Colt with a 270 grain + at max load. Does not weight anymore and will give you twice the power.

Smithcrazy,

I like the looks of those 240's. Any commercial caster that sells them?

How do the sabot bullets perform? I would thinl that's really expensive to shoot. Neat idea.

Missionary,

I always have a rifle or shotgun with me. I 44 would be a better answer here, and I may get one in the future. We're talking about black bears, while some do get hefty, most are under 400 lbs. I bumped two hunting this weekend for my first time ever.

Are the warm loads in Speer #8? I plan to get a copy if so.

Also, which issue of Handloader has the auto rim heavy bullet recipes?


Thanks.

If you just want a box of commercial ammo, the Buffalo Bore is some brutal ammo.

I tried some of their +P 38 special in a alloy revolver (+P rated) and it was more like +P+ or basically a magnum. I would have no doubt their item 32A would be most potent!

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

If you're a handloader the very hard cast 255gr bevel base SWCs sold
at gun shows and available by mail order would be a good choice. They
are Magma mold bullets from a variety of sellers. I have some and they
give good accuracy. Goes without saying that you want a stiff load for
your purpose.

If you want to just buy bullets and load your own. Missouri Bullets makes a heavy 250 gr bullet in hard alloy.

They make excellent bullets and really, really fast delivery.

Can't give you any load data as I never loaded that bullet.

Missouri Bullet Company

__________________
Still Running Against the Wind

I haven't done any water jug tests on them. I can get them to the velocity they were designed to run so performance should be about the same.

As for the commercial bullets, try Jessie (NKJ nut) here on the forum @ tennesseevalleybullets.com. He most likely will have something pretty close. In my opinion, you want something with a conventional crimp groove. With the recoil you may be generating, the standard 45ACP bullet MAY still jump, maybe not, but maybe.

I am still looking for a guy that used to sell nothing but Keith style bullets. I never ordered from him as I cast my own but he used to be available!

I'll try to find him agian.

FWIW

JoeD at Black River Bullets used to sell Keith bullets and I think he's a member here too. You might also be able to talk Lynn at Dry Creek Bullets to make some. I'm not sure if he's Creeker or LAH here.

Thanks to everyone for the recommendations. I will definitely look into some of these casters!

.45 AR from Speer#8. BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #8, Speer Inc, 1970 :: aab

Paul5388,

Thanks. You just saved me $10! That's awesome.

Is there a treasure trove of old manuals online for free?

QD

There are a few portions of the older manuals at that same site. You should see "Album:Reloading Manuals" on the gray menu bar above the image. Clicking on that will get you to the limited selection.

When you order your bullets, made sure they are sized so they go in the throats. Otherwise when you seat them like this, (see attachments) they may not fit your gun!

These are sized to .453" and will not seat in either of my 45ACP revolvers. Both of them are sized to .452" Personally, I think this is the reason I have very little problems with leading in either of them!

This bullet is a copy of the 45-270-SAA bullet that in hollow point mode is right at 270gr. In solid form, it weighs in at a whopping 285gr! Formidable!

At any rate, there is .060" more of this bullet in the case over the 240gr so it will take a while to work up a load. I am going to have to try something in the Unique, AA#5, SR4756 burn rate area. Nothing too fast!

This case is not full length sized and you will notice that there is no bulge at the base of the bullet. When the case is sized properly, there would have been, no doubt. Sizing to .451" will take care of both of the problems at once, seating and bulge. The only thing I may get out of that deal though is leading, we will have to see.

At any rate, when I get time I will work up a load for these bad boys in 45ACP/AR and get back to you! These would be real interesting for "social work", wouldn't you say?

Take a look!

Attached Images

	45-270-SAA 45ACP 2.jpg (39.5 KB, 84 views)
	45-270-SAA 45ACP 3.jpg (47.6 KB, 75 views)
	45-270-SAA 45ACP 4.jpg (36.9 KB, 84 views)
	45-270-SAA 45ACP 5.jpg (39.3 KB, 93 views)
	45-270-SAA 45ACP 6.jpg (38.0 KB, 92 views)

In Handloader #251, Brian Pearce answered a question about using the RCBS 45-270-SAA in the 45AR. The bullet, weighing 282gr, loaded with 6.8g of Power Pistol in Starline brass gave 855 fps. That's pretty decent performance and a really good bullet. This exceeds standard 45AR load data (15Kpsi) but is OK in a modern Model 625.

__________________
" I said, good DAY! "

Paul,
His forum name is LAH here, but his signature line is Creeker.

I have bought several thousand bullets from him over the last year and a half or so, but I know he was having some physical problems, and I'm not sure he is up and running full strength again yet or not.

He is an honest and good guy to deal with, and has great prices and fast shipping when he is going. He posts bullets for sale in our classifieds every so often.

Smith crazy,

Those look just plain mean. They would have to be effective for social work! Let me know what you work up!

QD

#254 VA. I looked at the magazine. Mike V had some stuff in the #250 range on the 45AR but Pearce's article is in the #254. LoadData.com has the loads. Thanks for reminding me to look there!

Skip,

VA is right. # 251, page 82, first question/answer at the top of the page.

You are right about the dedicated article on the AR being in #254. I have them both.

As much as I like semi wadcutters, for a load for a non-magnum gun to be used as bear defense, I'm thinking I would use roundnose with a small flat point. Penetration is paramount and a roundnose will penetrate better.

Or for a jacketed bullet, something like the Sierra JSP's used for silhouette shooting. Sports masters? Or something like that.

I was going by the dedicated article.

Dare I ask what the question is and the answer then? I mean, without violating the copyright laws?

I stand (sit) corrected.

Actually, a round nose won't penetrate as well as a swc will. They tend to veer off course too easily. The wide meplat of the swc creates a sledgehammer blow, and helps open a permanent wound channel all the way through flesh, while flesh tends to close back in around a round nose design, even if it has a small flat point thereby preventing loss of vital blood.

Penetration is important for sure, but so is large wound channel, and straight line penetration is top of the list for me.

Skip,
it was a long question, so I don't know if I can attempt to violate any lwas anyway by printing it here. I'll try to sum it up in my own words so we are both safe.

Give me a minute to pull it out and sum it up.

BRB

That is not necessarily corrrect. Round nose bullets tend to be somewhat unstable in animate targets and will often yaw, which limits penetration adversely. The only way to know is to conduct repeatable testing, such as calibrated gelatin protocols.

The heavy Keith bullets described by several posters will give you excellent penetration along with better defined wound channels (something the round nose doesn't do) and will perform better. A 250-260 .45 SWC at 900 fps or thereabouts will penetrate over 30" of tissue. If you don't think so, try to find anybody who has consistently recovered one from game animals killed with those loads. They generally shoot completely through deer, elk, bears, etc. and are not recovered. Some reading of John Linebaugh's writings will verify this.

My bad, question not so long, answer is.

The guy was asking about Alliant Power Pistol, and Universal Clays data. He had read Mike V's article but it hadn't included those two for 240-250 grains swc's.

Pearce answered (abbrev here greatly for space) that 6 grains of PP will drive the Lyman 454424 250 gr swc to 838 fps in a 1955 S&W Target with 6.5" tube, and upping it to 6.8 provided 901 fps.The last load is getting close to +P levels (23,000 psi for those that don't know).

Then he lists some loads for the RCBS 270 SAA. Cast from #2 alloy his came out at roughly 280 grains. 6.8 gr of PP gave 885 fps. That is above current SAAMI spec of 15,000 CUP ( again for those who don't know) for the .45 AR, and is approx +P level for the .45 ACP.


DISCLAIMER
These loads should only be used in post war revo's for several reasons, the main one being that most post war guns have much better heat treated steels than earlier guns.

Re: Round nose vs. SWC penetration, my experience matches that of Elmer Keith. See his description on p. 126-127 of his book Sixguns.

I think metacarpal problems slowed Lynn down on his casting. That and a move into town, but he may be doing some machine casting now.

I usually don't run my M625-6 too much over 1100 fps with 255 gr bullets. 270 gr bullets are only in the 950 fps range. However, Clark's Custom guns uses 625s for their .460 Rowland conversion, so I guess that's a permissible velocity.

No disrespect meant here cp1969. Just a difference of opinions. It's what makes this whole hobby interesting, and a valuable source of educational material.

I'm a big fan of EK, but he wasn't right about everything. He had his opinions, and seldom do not agree with them. here I do, and so do John Linebaugh, John taffin, and brian Pearce. Three men whom I choose to listen to since they have access to al current and older designs, and they do an awful lot of penetration testing with them all. See the Linebaugh penetration seminar tests-
Linebaugh Seminar Penetration Tests

If you'll notice, the best penertators are most always the LFN's or WFN's.

I have shot a few of our large whitetails with the H&G #68 200 grain scw at 1,000 fps from a 1911, and they pass through them like a hot knife going though warm butter. Those are stubby little buggers in the grand scheme of things.

If the round nose was a better penetrator, then al the big bullet companies wouldn't be listening to Afircan PH's on which way they should be designing their bullets. Most are finally wising up and going to the flat nose design with their FMJ's. Reason? Straighter and deeper penetration.

I rely on what works for me on animals far more than what worked in some test tube gelatin. It simply isn't the same as an animal, and that's what I hunt.

I dunno, maybe I'm missing out on something here. Anyone ever eat one of them test tube innards?

That 8.0 on both is inches of penetration in bone and wet paper. I don't think I've ever met a 125 gr .38 that would only do 620 fps, but it still penetrated 8.0 inches of dry paper.

Paul,


That is awfully low, and yet.......
Chances are that the hollow point filled with paper and acted like a flat nosed solid anyway. My point to the other gentleman was that flat nose bullets penetrate better than round nose designs.

This is the one that is relevent to this thread though-
45 Auto Rim Keith 240 860 fps 20.0" n/a
Year tested:2004

If that is bumped up to around 1,000 fps, the depth number will be even better with that bullet.

Tim,
The loads you mention are on line at LoadData.com along with many more. They are attributed to that dedicated article of #254, hence my reference to it.

Since I'm trying to consolidate powders, not attain more, Power Pistol "ain't" gonna happen. I'm out and not going to get more. Now, I do have a bunch of Unique and AA#5 and SR4756 and Herco and ......................................so one of those is going to get the call, maybe all of them!

At any rate, I found some loads and will be extrapolating others. Only one problem, work. I've got more work right now than "Carter has little pills!" Its bad when work gets in the way of your hobby!

Yeah, I thought Venturino's article in #254 was a little weak on the 45 AR higher power level stuff in modern guns. As a practical observation, he usually is compared to Pearce.

I have tried the Power Pistol load Pearce mentioned and it is a humdinger in my 4" 625-8! Accuracy is superb, and I got right at 900fps. I have also loaded a comparable charge of Unique in Starline brass and a Speer 250 LSWC for a chrono'd avg 942fps in that gun. The 45 AR can get up and walk in the right gun, the operative term being the 'right gun' (note: the Unique load, although not specifically given, is over SAAMI spec in the 25kpsi range and should only be worked up to with caution in new Starline brass and exacting handloading techniques, and would only be suitable for recently made guns.)

__________________
" I said, good DAY! "

VA-

I couldn't agree with you more regarding Mike V. I have little use for very few of his articles anymore. He didn't start off that way, but he is has become over time a real posterboy for the real creampuff loads.

I don't believe thatit's any secret that am a huge fan of Brian Pearce's stuff, and for good reason. He tells it like it is in the real world, and you can go out and duplicate his findings yourself, whether on the target range or on the game in your area.

Skip-

I understand about the powder thing. My powder shelf looks like it's out of control (but then again I load for about 20 different cartridges in both long and hand gun), strangely though, there are only few of the newer powders there. I have had such good luck with most of the old standby's that I rarely stray from them. It's really hard to go wrong with Unique, 231 for light and mid range loads, and 2400, H-110/296 for the heavy stuff.

I have had very good luck with Power Pistol so far, and it is a very clean burning powder, and seems to be very consitant across the chrono. It is one of the very few newer powders that I have decided to keep on hand. It works very well in my 97 year old TL with 255 429421's.

BTW, that happy meal will kill you quicker than lead you know.........

Now that's the truth!

No offense taken.

I'll concede that Elmer probably wasn't right all the time...if you'll concede that neither are Linebaugh, Taffin, and Pearce. Nobody's right all the time.

I'm not sure how much faith I want to put in the data shown in that link when it shows the .25-20 out-penetrating two 220 grain .30-06 loads.

I know that seems strange, but it's all relevent to sectional density, along with bullet design, and velocity.

That could be a typo I suppose.

I would suggest (as I have to several other forum members, some of whom have actually done it) calling John Linebaugh and talking to him about it. He is a true expert on such things, and no one can reasonably question his expertise. He is also a nice guy to talk to, and a boatload of knowlege and info.

You're right that no one is correct all the time, but old EK didn't have access to chrongraphs and pressure equipment some of todays writers have, for the biggest part of his career. If your mind is made up that he is the final word, then nothing I say or type is going to change that, so I won't try to. I will say that I have been shooting and loading a long time, and my own personal experiences with loads, penetration etc., very closely mirror Taffin and Pearce's, and all three of us are fans of Elmer Keith.

No truer words spoken. No, he isn't infallible, but he is one of the nicest fellows you will ever have the pleasure to speak with. Reminded me of Grandpa to be honest. Busy, knowledgeable, intelligent, but always willing to speak with someone to pass on knowledge or to gain some.

I told him of my experience in the Marines. I was a Combat Engineer. He began to probe me for answers about explosive charges and such. "What happens when you do such and such?"

I have used a ton of his loads, mostly in a Puma and a Ruger. I have a M25 -7 that will get a few of them too, just not right away seeing it is "new" to me!

Check the selection at Pennbullets, or, better yet, write
to Mr. Palermo with your needs.

Joe

.45 Caliber Bullets Available From Penn Bullets

[email protected]

You can also run .45 Super in your M25... I spoke with one of the reps at Buffalo Bore a few years ago who stated thet many of their customers use Supers in their 25s and 625s. The tech I was talking to also shot them extensively in his 625...

.45 Super Pistol & Handgun Ammunition


Bob

I've loaded plenty of SWC bullets in the .45 AR. I have a large stock of Creekers 255 Keith bullets from the end of his reloading era. Also have used Missouri Bullets 255 SWC. Any of the similar bullets from Beartooth would be suitable as well.

Loaddata.com is worth subscribing to. Lots of good data in there that you will not find on a public forum or even in loading manuals.

I have used Universal and HS-6 with great results in a S&W Model 22-4. In a fixed sight gun they will shoot a bit high, change the front sight to .262 ramp and they will be dead on at 25 yards.

The Auto Rim has been purposely down loaded by the factories for years. In a modern revolver you can load it up to full .45 ACP +P levels with no ill effects. There is an article in Handloader from years back by Brian Pearce all about modern loads for the .45 Auto Rim. You can get the back issue online (I think it's $10 but worth it). Much of the data can be found in the loaddata.com database as well, but not the article, which is useful.

In a nutshell, the .45 AR in modern gun (S&W 5" barrel N frame) can be loaded to original .45 Colt specs: 255 grain bullet @ ~950 fps. A four-inch barrel will get about 25 fps less. Despite the magnum craze, that load was considered quite powerful "back in the day", and has enough penetration. I would not go bear HUNTING with that load, but as a bear protection load it will do fine.

Another manufacturer the OP may wish to look into is Cast Performance. They make an LBT heat treated lead with a wide meplat. I see they make a 265gr. WFNGC sized at .452 that might be just the ticket for the 45AR. While I have no experience with this bullet, I have used their 44cal. bullets in my 629's............very accurate! The only thing I can say about penetration is that their 255gr. 44 bullet will go right through both shoulders of a 300lb. hog, shot a bit shy of 25yds. I personally would prefer a hard lead wadcutter, if I had to shoot a big bear in the head. That's the ONLY shot I would be taking at close range!

By the way, I'm another huge fan of Brian Pearce...........not so much of "the Duke" Venturino.

I miss skip..........

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

I've tried the heavy bullets in a 5" 625 using Auto Rim brass. The Lyman #454424 .45 Colt SWC weighs about 255-260 grains. I got good accuracy with it using Unique and maybe one or two other powders, but recoil was considerable over lighter bullets like the 200 grain H&G #68 or copies.

One can load the #68 pretty warm. I'm not up on textbook bear loads and theory, but in-the-field performance differences between the #68 and the heavyweights might be negligible. Not intended as some confrontational arguing point.

Buffalo Bore +P 255 grain hard cast (1,000 fps). They'll shoot high, so a 6 o'clock hold is in order.

Buffalo Bore had a couple of loads that might work.

I have a couple of boxes of 32C-20 which is a 225gr wadcutter hard cast.

I think that big flat nose bullet would be effective. It's a +p load.

BB also has a 45 autorim +p round nose flat point load 255 gr