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Old 05-09-2010, 07:03 PM
JLM JLM is offline
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Default Reloading to raise point of aim on a 1917

Hi all,
I got a new barrel installed on my Brazilian-contract model 1917 last week and took it out for a test run on Saturday. I loaded 3 different bullets over 4.0 grains of Bullseye to see how it would shoot. I used two different 200 gr. SWC's and one 230 gr. roundnose bullet. All lead I've cast mysef. I got what I think are decent groups, but it's hitting low and a little to the left. I posted some pics below. At 15 yards, I ended up aiming at the clip that held the target on!

So I'm wondering how much, if at all, I can adjust the point of aim through reloading. Lighter bullets? More grains? Different power? Thanks for any advice.

1917_1

Last edited by JLM; 05-09-2010 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:40 PM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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Well, in general , light bullets and higher velocity go lower.

So if your slow 230gr are too low, I don't see how other loads are going to solve the problem. Babbit bar time? Do you have an unusually tall front sight?
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:15 PM
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Raise rear sight, lower front sight, slow down bullet.

Any of the above should do the trick.
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:40 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Heavier bullet will do it too. Say a 250gr LRNFP 45 Colt cowboy bullet going about 800-850fps. Should raise it an inch or two, maybe more. One thing good about it hitting low with a fixed sight gun, you can always trim down the front sight. It's kind of hard to make one longer!

The principle I am noting is called "barrel dwell time" and with heavier bullets in handguns at close ranges, the difference can make all the difference.

One thing for sure, the 200gr bullet is too light for that firearm to have the sights work right. Try a different sight alignment. Have more of the front sight above the rear groove. The target will be hard to get in the sight picture that way but, try that too.

Hope this helps
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:37 AM
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I tend to agree with OKFC05, low velocity loads shoot high, because the bullet remains in the barrel until after the recoil (rise) has begun. Fast loads exit the barrel sooner, consequently shoot low, because of less barrel rise. I'm not sure bullet weight has much to do with it?
Dick
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:07 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddog View Post
I tend to agree with OKFC05, low velocity loads shoot high, because the bullet remains in the barrel until after the recoil (rise) has begun. Fast loads exit the barrel sooner, consequently shoot low, because of less barrel rise. I'm not sure bullet weight has much to do with it?
Dick
The bullet weight has a lot to do with it. That is exactly what OKFC is saying. "Lighter bullets, higher velocity", conversely heavier bullets going slower shoot higher. Try it.

Longer dwell time, more recoil, higher muzzle lift. There is a place where it meets, so to speak and no difference can be seen.

The good thing with the M1917/M25/M625 45ACP revolvers is that you can shoot different bullets in it than you can a semi auto and the 45AR brass makes it much more versatile.

If your 230gr bullets are shooting too low, try a 250gr. It works.
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Old 05-10-2010, 07:56 AM
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Good Morning:
Consider dropping down to 3.5grs Bullseye and also using another Powder.
Jimmy
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:19 AM
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What happens if you shoot the same bullet weight at a high and low velocity? Do they both have the same point of impact? Have you ever noticed how, when running test loads of a certain type of powder, and increasing the charge a few tenths each five rounds, the point of impact will change? Usually dropping, or rising if decreasing the powder charge?
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:53 AM
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Many Moons ago I had a 1917. Wish I still had it. If I recall 3.5 of Bullseye with a 250 cast swc shot to point of aim @25yds.
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Old 05-10-2010, 07:01 PM
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Thanks for the advice. I notice Missouri Bullet Company has a 250 gr. RNFP. They aren't too far away from me, so maybe I need to give them a try.
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:05 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLM View Post
Thanks for the advice. I notice Missouri Bullet Company has a 250 gr. RNFP. They aren't too far away from me, so maybe I need to give them a try.
J,
Data for them may be hard to find. I have some Internet resources that many many folks have trusted for years. They actually come out of Wolfe publishing's magazines and are put into an online selection. If you can't find anything, let me know and I will look some loads up for you.

When going to a heavier bullet there are two things to watch for: deep seating and OAL. The two are not the same. One has to do with how far the bullet goes into the case and the other is how long the assembled bullet is. Once an OAL is established then seating depth and OAL are directly correlated.

Here is what I mean. Say a 250gr LRN bullet has most of it's weight in the ogive, that bullet is going to be shorter than say a LSWC of the same weight. If you seat both to the same OAL you are going to have much more of one in the case than the other. The bullet that seats deeper in the case is going to raise pressures exponentially. You will need to reduce powder charges accordingly. Seating too long could raise pressures in a handgun if you forced the cylinder closed or something like that. If there is any running room at all in a handgun and you are using lead bullets, pressures are going to be hard to reach that will be catastrophic, at least in my opinion. (Remember, we are talking about the 45ACP/45AR here, not the 40S&W.)

I have run 255gr LSWC that I cast at 1000fps from my M625 without problem 1. The vintage 1917 may need just a tad less of a load though!

Although, Elmer had a load for it that was certainly HOT by today's standards!

Enjoy and be safe. Always work up load from starting data!
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Old 12-05-2010, 02:00 PM
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Resurrected this old thread because I have a 1917 that shoots about 6" to the left and 6" low at 25 yards with 230 grain FMJ ammo. Saw the posts about going to a heavier bullet at slower velocities and decided to give it a try.

Cast and loaded some 454424s, sized to .454 and weighing 265 grains, with AA No. 5, starting with 5.7 grains and moving up in .3 grain increments to 6.9 grains. Point of impact moved up to where it should be using a center hold, but I'm still off in the windage. The 6.9 grain load moved to the right, but not sure that wasn't me doing that unintentionally.



Actually, 6.0 grains of Unique shot a little tighter, but I'd like to play around with the AA No.5 some more.



Now, if I could figure out a load that shoots to the right, I'd be all set!

I think it's time to get a Wonder Sight.
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:01 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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Chuck,
I have had the POI change with bullet shape. Our M586 6" shoots to the sights when shooting a 158gr LSWC but to the right consistently with the same charge of powder only under a 158gr LRN.

Maybe a different shape is in the future for you?
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:17 PM
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"Back in Day" I used the Keith style 255gr. LSWC sized .452 or .454 for your bore diameter.
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:22 PM
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Well, I've tried a 230 grain H&G 34 LRN and it also shot to the left. Maybe some 452190s? They weigh about 255 grains. Or some 452423 which weigh about 240 grains. Though I would expect similar results to the 454424, seeing as they're both the same shape. Well, I'll try the 452190 and see how that goes.
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:35 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
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I am jealous! You have an H&G #34? WOW! Wish I did! I have one that is close to it, a Saeco #496BB. It is a very good bullet too.

How deep are you seating the 454424? Could you use a 45-270-SAA? That would keep the POI up anyway. Not sure what it would do to the windage though.

Wanna hear what/how things go!
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Old 12-05-2010, 07:56 PM
Dave T Dave T is offline
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Your original try with 230g was over 4g of Bullseye. That's a pretty light load. Before going to much heavier bullets consider that gun and all other 1917s were intended to shoot ball. When I was in the Army (Vietnam) I came across a spec sheet for 45 Ball. It said 230g FMJ at 830 fps, +- 15 fps. I would think just upping the charge to get that 230g RN closer to spec, i.e. ~830 fps, would probably shoot where you want the elevation.

The shooting left is probably a matter of the new barrel not turned in properly. My $.02 worth.

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Old 12-05-2010, 08:00 PM
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I have seen a lot of good advice in this thread but no one has mentioned a ding in the barrel crowning may be causing the left point of impact, also check your grip. I had to recrown a 1917 with a small ding in the crown that moved the point of impact.

Last edited by BoDog; 12-05-2010 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:31 PM
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Actually, guys, I'm not the OP. I just hijacked the thread because I have the exact same issue. My 1917 has the original barrel and other than a trip back to the factory in 1947 for some rework and refinishing, it's original except for the grips. I don't doubt the the barrel might need to be tweaked a hair to bring the front sight to where it should be. I checked the crown and no dings.

After reading more on this site, it seems this isn't an uncommon problem with this model. Given that it's regulated for 7-15 yards (?), being off an inch or two at that short range doesn't seem that bad for combat accuracy in a trenchline. Maybe I'm stretching it at 25 yards and expecting it to shoot dead on like my Model 25 or my National Match 1911A1. That being said, it does shoot 2" groups at 25 yards off a rest with an H&G 34 230 grain LRN and 3.8 grains of Bullseye, just 5" low and to the left.

I'm going to keep at it and see what other loads work (or don't). This is really half the fun of reloading and casting, having the ability to tailor the loads for a particular gun to wring out its full potential.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:12 AM
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Shows the oddities in firearms. My 1937 shoots Berry's round nose 185 with Red Dot, (forget the amount, could look), dead on at 15 yards! left and right, up and down. It puts military ball about 4 inches high at that range!
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