another 44mag question

[Forrest r]

I see a lot of 44mag questions on this forum. Most of them seem to either be directed at full house loads or light target loads.

The target loads are easily covered with every ones favorite powder/bullet combo.

The mag loads always seem to involve 2400, H110 or ww296. I was wondering why I don’t very often see any medium/medium heavy powders being recommended. They don’t give up a lot of ground (speed), usually use 3 to 4 grains of powder less than the heavy mag powders & won’t beat the pistols to death.

I used to load the 44mags & the 357’s extremely hot, full house loads of h110. Then I heard about the pull down powder that pat’s reloading was selling. I went to a gunshow & talked to him about the powder & ended up buying 8# of his powder, wc820. It is a 30 carbine pull down powder & used the same data as h110 minus 10%. It was an excellent ball powder that metered extremely well, burned clean & put some serous lead down range.

When pat ran out of that powder I started to look at some of the powders that were right on the bubble of performance/quantity. I started trying different powders & found that powders like bluedot & AA#7 made some excellent loads with good power behind them. They don’t beat the guns to death & I get around 75 more loads per pound of powder.

I was just wondering why I don’t see more people using/talking about using the medium heavy powders in their mags? They provide respectable velocities & will average 600 more rounds per 8# keg of powder.

[mark454]

I will take a stab at an answer because I am guilty of using either a light 44 mag load or a true 44 mag load in my S&W's. I don't have a need for a "medium" 44 mag load. That being said, what do you think is a medium load? Generally speaking, I use 7.5 grains of WW231 under a 250 grain cast bullet in a 44 mag case as my light load for about 950 fps (in my 8&3/8 629). True 44 mag load is 24 grains of H110 under a 240 grain SJHP for about 1450 fps (same gun). The gun is very accurate with either load. Why do I need to shoot either bullet at say 1200 fps? If I feel like taking more recoil than the light load, I just go to the true 44 mag load. Just my opinion and what works for me.
Mark

[VAdoublegunner]

Good issue. A couple of other powders I have tried and liked in 44Mag are AA#9 and of course the classic Blue Dot. AA#9 meters very well and I especially liked it with heavy for caliber bullets (300gr jacketeds), but I don't shoot them as often anymore. Blue Dot is of course a classic 44Mag powder. I actually have several favorite loads based on it that give excellent accuracy. Both of those powders are not quite as sensitive to downloading as H110/WW296. Starting loads give decent moderate level velocities, relatively clean burns, and consistencies.

Another one I have been experimenting with is Power Pistol. PP gives decent velocities at lower pressures. I think it has great promise as a 44Mag powder. It's just that I already have so many favorite loads, why another?

If you would like a great reference for mid-range 44Mag loads, I would recommend Brian Pearce's article on the S&W Model 29 in Handloader #241. Lots of excellent info there with a wide range of powder types and bullet weights. He also did an article on handloading for the Ruger 50th Ann. Blackhawk flattop in 44Mag that has some excellent info, but I'll have to look up the issue number.

[dla]

Originally Posted by Forrest r

I see a lot of 44mag questions on this forum. Most of them seem to either be directed at full house loads or light target loads.

The target loads are easily covered with every ones favorite powder/bullet combo.

The mag loads always seem to involve 2400, H110 or ww296. I was wondering why I don’t very often see any medium/medium heavy powders being recommended. They don’t give up a lot of ground (speed), usually use 3 to 4 grains of powder less than the heavy mag powders & won’t beat the pistols to death.

I used to load the 44mags & the 357’s extremely hot, full house loads of h110. Then I heard about the pull down powder that pat’s reloading was selling. I went to a gunshow & talked to him about the powder & ended up buying 8# of his powder, wc820. It is a 30 carbine pull down powder & used the same data as h110 minus 10%. It was an excellent ball powder that metered extremely well, burned clean & put some serous lead down range.

When pat ran out of that powder I started to look at some of the powders that were right on the bubble of performance/quantity. I started trying different powders & found that powders like bluedot & AA#7 made some excellent loads with good power behind them. They don’t beat the guns to death & I get around 75 more loads per pound of powder.

I was just wondering why I don’t see more people using/talking about using the medium heavy powders in their mags? They provide respectable velocities & will average 600 more rounds per 8# keg of powder.

When I started loading 44mag, I spent a lot of time looking for a "medium" load, and you can see the results in my load data section. But as time progressed, I grew bored with my plinkers and mediums. Now I only load "carry loads", and that is all I shoot. Now my carry loads aren't at the absolute top end of pressure and performance, but they are not "medium" either.

Powder cost is a tiny fraction of the overall cost of shooting 44mag and the only reason I played with "mediums" is because I already had a wide selection of powders for other applications. What I learned is simple: the 44mag is a very easy and forgiving cartridge to load with a very wide usable load range from mouse fart to hand cannon.

44 mag load data

[kenjen]

i have found that 18grs. of 2400 with a 240gr. lead bl. gives me between 1100-1200 fps. from my ruger redhawk 71/2''. it is enjoyable to shoot and easy on the gun.

[stmry]

Do you guys that use magnum primers with ww296 and H110 in your 44 magnum loads?

[Sully]

Originally Posted by mark454

I will take a stab at an answer because I am guilty of using either a light 44 mag load or a true 44 mag load in my S&W's. I don't have a need for a "medium" 44 mag load. That being said, what do you think is a medium load? Generally speaking, I use 7.5 grains of WW231 under a 250 grain cast bullet in a 44 mag case as my light load for about 950 fps (in my 8&3/8 629). True 44 mag load is 24 grains of H110 under a 240 grain SJHP for about 1450 fps (same gun). The gun is very accurate with either load. Why do I need to shoot either bullet at say 1200 fps? If I feel like taking more recoil than the light load, I just go to the true 44 mag load. Just my opinion and what works for me.
Mark

Personally I look at a 250/240 slug at 950 to NOT be a light load...but to be a medium. A 45ACP with 230 FMJ isnt that fast and I dont know who really considers "45 hardball" to be a light load? 240 LSWC at 950-1000 fps is what I intend on loading and shooting as my avg load with speeds in the 1250-1300 fps range to be "my" heavy round.

[tdan]

Forrest r................You are preaching to the choir. Blue Dot and a 250gr. Keith lead go together like peas and carrots. If you want to shoot light loads in a 44Mag, just shoot 44 Specials. My 629's deliver superb accuracy when clocking around 1200fps with this bullet/powder combo. If this is too much for a shooter, time to man up and practice a bit more. Shooting the 44Mag is an acquired taste. Just like drinking fine wine or good bourbon............the more you do it..........the more you enjoy it!

[1x2]

Forrest r makes really legitimate points.

Responses thus far have been well on point IMO, so I will introduce the obvious. I sense that a lot of us don't need or want a garage or basement full of 57 varieties of powder for 19 different calibers and don't approach reloading as a science, 4 nights a week, and which is why I like the word "recipe" as a surrogate for "load data".

A lot of us (I think) have 2 different loads for each caliber, if that- one hot and one cold and would be tickled to use the same powder for each job. If we load for multiple calibers; e.g., .38, .357, .44sp, .44mag, and .45 colt, we can do all that with 2 different types of powder- so why complicate the issue? We stick with stuff that works, is well known, versatile and that is safe. When we're out of bullets we go downstairs for an hour and load a hundred rounds- done.

I know why to complicate the issue. Elements of firearms are like cars, and computers, and power tools. A lot of us are geeky, tinkerer, mechanical types interested in how it works, why, what works better, and where's the outer limits. I think a lot of us don't know how well our revolvers, for instance, could shoot because we don't invest the time in options, even with the same powder, never mind trying 4 different powders to get the same load (which would end up being a lot of expensive fertilizer for the back yard).

All by way of saying that- a lot of us just haven't gotten there, yet, and maybe never will, and just don't worry over it.

[Forrest r]

Well, different responses that is interesting. I really am not trying to preach, just cereous as to what people are loading.

The alliant powder reloaders guide lists loads for bluedot & 2400, their 240rg lead loads are:
16.6gr bluedot=1475fps & 20.6gr 2400=1510fps Bluedot gives up 35fps for 4 less gr of powder

What caught my eye was the 4gr less of powder every load or for every 5 bullets I load the 5th ones free or 600 more bullets per 8# of powder can be loaded & only give up 35fps for a max load.

I use unique & universal clays for medium loads anymore in just about every caliber I load. I just found that I’ve been using powders that are 1 step down from the mag powders being offered from the different mfg’s for my mag loads anymore. I found that I’m giving up around 5% of my fps with these loads but I’m saving 20% to 25% on my powder.

I was just wandering if anyone else is doing the same thing?

[Skip Sackett]

Two things here. Reduced loads of any kind in the 44Mag really need a different powder than the "normal" full house stuff. Recently, I have used Unique for those kinds of loads. SR4756, W231/HP-38, AA#7 and others have seen use here.

I live too far north to ever use Blue Dot again in the 44Mag. It gets real squirrelly under 30*F.

As for WC820, it is a great powder. The lot I had, 47321 (from memory so....) loaded like H110. That being said, it acted exactly like H110. If you downloaded it 10% from a maximum charge, you got a stuck bullet, period.

With each MILSURP powder, remember, there is a reason it isn't being used. That isn't bad, don't get me wrong, just something to note. Some of the "virgin" stuff simply didn't give the results at the desired weight. Other is pulldown and actually made the "grade". Each should be considered on its own merit as a different powder.


I like the MILSURP powders and WC820 is one of my favorites. It can still be had from gibrass.com most of the time.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by Forrest r

Well, different responses that is interesting. I really am not trying to preach, just cereous as to what people are loading.

The alliant powder reloaders guide lists loads for bluedot & 2400, their 240rg lead loads are:
16.6gr bluedot=1475fps & 20.6gr 2400=1510fps Bluedot gives up 35fps for 4 less gr of powder

What caught my eye was the 4gr less of powder every load or for every 5 bullets I load the 5th ones free or 600 more bullets per 8# of powder can be loaded & only give up 35fps for a max load.

I use unique & universal clays for medium loads anymore in just about every caliber I load. I just found that I’ve been using powders that are 1 step down from the mag powders being offered from the different mfg’s for my mag loads anymore. I found that I’m giving up around 5% of my fps with these loads but I’m saving 20% to 25% on my powder.

I was just wandering if anyone else is doing the same thing?

Im with ya on saving powder Forrest....but there may be more to it. What pressures are those two load running? The Bluedot load MAY BE running at MAX pressure in a pistol...where the 2400 load MIGHT BE a lot less pressure.

Look at Alliants guide for 44Mag...240gr GDHP. Alliants "recommended" load is 13.7 of Bluedot for 1285fps ..AND...21.0 of 2400 for 1434fps. There is a GREAT powder savings. But its easy to find data showing 15.5gr of Bluedot for 1550 fps AT 37,600 PSI..!! Lots of people dont want to load at that upper pressure ceiling.

Its not about saving powder...its about getting what you want out of a "load"

[tdan]

<Look at Alliants guide for 44Mag...240gr GDHP. Alliants "recommended" load is 13.7 of Bluedot for 1285fps ..AND...21.0 of 2400 for 1434fps. There is a GREAT powder savings. But its easy to find data showing 15.5gr of Bluedot for 1550 fps AT 37,600 PSI..!! Lots of people dont want to load at that upper pressure ceiling.>

I've always held my 44Mag Blue Dot loads to 14.0 gr. max for a 240gr. jacketed. Same thing for a 250gr. Keith. I shoot here in Florida, and my Blue Dot loads have never gotten "squirrelly" on me. I've read the stories about Blue Dot giving pressure spikes with maximum 357Mag loads in freezing weather, but I've never heard any such stories regarding the 44Mag.

Another thing to consider regarding powder choice in the 44Mag is barrel length. A short 3-4" barrel is simply not long enough to efficiently burn powders like H-110 or W-296. Shoot a box of those loads, and you'll have a whole mess of unburned powder residue all over your shooting bench, not to mention sooty fingers. Those medium to medium/slow powders are much more suitable for a 4" gun. Another fine powder for a short barreled 44Mag is VV-N340.

[Forrest r]

Like a lot of other shooter here, I shoot 1000's of lead bullets a year. My lead is free, that's why I used the 240gr lead bullet data.

It didn't matter if I used a full house load of bluedot or 2400, both have the same pressure reading, 34,700psi.

I have the same problem with bluedot in the cold ohio winters. But 14.5gr of bluedot & a 215gr lswc makes an excellent summer load in my 6'bbl 629 & my 10" contender.

[tdan]

<I have the same problem with bluedot in the cold ohio winters.>

What exactly are the problems or issues that you are having with Blue Dot in cold weather? I've read every printed line on my container of Blue Dot, and nowhere does it say........do not fire cartridges loaded with this powder in cold weather. You'd think the corporate lawyers would have weasel words printed everywhere, if this powder was dangerous to use under certain conditions. I'm thinking the formula may have been tweaked to address this perpetual urban/internet myth.

[Forrest r]

Why don’t you find out for yourself what the deal is. Load up a box or two of your favorite 44 bluedot loads and put them in the freezer for a day to cool off.

If you trust what that can says sooooo much, why don’t you man up & fill up the cylinders with those frozen bullets & pull the trigger as fast as you can?

[Sully]

Originally Posted by tdan

<I have the same problem with bluedot in the cold ohio winters.>

What exactly are the problems or issues that you are having with Blue Dot in cold weather? I've read every printed line on my container of Blue Dot, and nowhere does it say........do not fire cartridges loaded with this powder in cold weather. You'd think the corporate lawyers would have weasel words printed everywhere, if this powder was dangerous to use under certain conditions. I'm thinking the formula may have been tweaked to address this perpetual urban/internet myth.

Get the powder company on the line. Ask what the heck is going on with the cold weather problem...???

[tdan]

Sully...............I did indeed call Alliant this afternoon, looking to put this subject to rest. I eneded up leaving a message for some tech supervisor, but did not get a call back. I prefaced my message that I was a fan of Blue Dot, but simply wanted to know about reloading apps in cold weather. No call back!.............Hmmmmmm! The number is: 800-276-9337. Can't say that I did not attempt to put this subject to rest.

[Skip Sackett]

Dan, You may get a faster reply if you leave an email. I have spoken with Ben A from Alliant on several occasions, great guy.

I have no idea what he will tell you about Blue Dot and cold temperatures. I know there is a warning about some 357Mag loads. All of the posted data for Blue Dot in the 41Mag are supposedly no good now.

What I can tell you is what I have experienced first hand. Others have too but I will leave that to them to tell.

A chronograph is all one will need to prove this out. I did about 10 years ago. My load at the time for the 44Mag carbine was a maximum load for a 240gr JHP, memory of the load eludes me except for the results. From the rifle I was looking for 1500fps or so, which I got with several bullets. Others loaded in the same lot produced over 2000fps. The temperature was below freezing.

Now, could it have been loading practices? Sure, always that possibility. At the time it would have been much harder to have a big problem. I was loading on an RCBS RS-3 at the time with a Lyman #55 as my powder drop.

I figured that a spread of 500fps meant that I had done something wrong too. Then I started hearing others lament about their loads not performing correctly with Blue Dot and cold temperatures.

Whatever it was, it seemed that others were having similar problems at the same temperatures while our friends down south, you know, where it is always warm , weren't.

Not too scientific but it is real world experience.

[tdan]

Skip.........Wow!.........2000fps. even in a carbine length barrel, that would get my attention. I have a Ruger 96 lever action with an 18.5" barrel. I get 1720fps with a 240gr. XTP using 23.5gr of H-110 rocket fuel. I would never expect to match that velocity using around 14 gr. of Blue Dot, my maximum. I have compared some of the newer load data with data from older load manuals. I believe Alliant now lists 13.7 gr. of Blue Dot as max for a 240gr. JHP. My old Hornady 4th edition lists...........are you ready?!............ 15.8gr. max for their 240gr. XTP!..........And this is for a jacketed bullet sized at .430. Test platform was a Ruger Super Blackhawk. That's a load that I probably would not want to shoot a bunch in my 629-4 MG. My somewhat more conservative Blue Dot loads clock just under 1200fps. in that 4" barrel, are very accurate, and still let you know that you are shooting a 44Mag.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by tdan

Sully...............I did indeed call Alliant this afternoon, looking to put this subject to rest. I eneded up leaving a message for some tech supervisor, but did not get a call back. I prefaced my message that I was a fan of Blue Dot, but simply wanted to know about reloading apps in cold weather. No call back!.............Hmmmmmm! The number is: 800-276-9337. Can't say that I did not attempt to put this subject to rest.

All I get is an answering machine also..???

[Mule88]

One of the best midrange loads Ive ever used was 9 gns of universal clays behind a 220-250 cast bullet. Clean burning, one inch groups at 25yds. Little recoil. Ive also used 10 gns of Universal behind a 200-210 gn jacketed HP. With the same results.