I am looking for an accurate load for my heavy barreled 6 inch .38 PPC revolver. My. intintion is to use Federal small pistol primers, with Zero 148 grain HBWC bullets, and Winchester 231 powder. I'm loading on a Dillon 550B. I have been told that I can use a powder charge of only 2.3 grains but every post that I have located indicates a much higher powder charge then this. (Ranging from 2.7 to 3.9grains)

Any help will be appreciated as I am new to reloading.
lbm

I use 3.2 grains of W 231 with a Remington 148 HBWC in my Model 52, two Model 14s and a Model 67. I think you have been misinformed since this is pretty much a recognized, standard .38 load with the HBWC. I do know you do not want to go too high as there is a danger of blowing the skirt off the HBWC. A more common load in the Model 52 is 2.7 or 2.8 grains of Bullseye. I have used this load successfully in my revolvers as well.

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Pete

I use 2.9gr for HBWC. You should be OK with 2.8 to 3.2.
Little leary about 2.3 risking sticking a bullet.

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Science plus Art

I have not experienced any squibs using this 2.3 load but I am a nervous wreck that this is going to happen. The target holes are very clean and don't indicate any tumbling.

I don't think a HBWC would tumble if you blew it out a drinking straw. The only two issues are sticking it (too slow) or blowing off the skirt (too hot).

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Science plus Art

3.1 - 3.2gr W231 with a 148 HBWC is the load . 2.5 - 2.7 WST , 3.6 VVN 340 , 2.9 AA# 2 or VVN 320 are also good loads . Attached targets shot @ 50yds with above W 231 & N 340 loads . R-P cases , Fed 100 primers , Zero 148 HBWC . Remington 148 HBWC shoot great also , but messy to load .

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This year I'm using Zero 148 HBWC bullets and also switched over to WW231. I was using Precision Delta's HBWC's and Titegroup (2.7 grs.). I like the Zero's because they are so clean. PD's were a bit messy.
I have some factory Winchester 148 rounds that shoot really good out of my revolver. When I develope a new load, I shoot 6 factory win. rounds through my chrono. It can be a little different due to temperature and such, so I check it at the same time I'm working up the new load. My intention is to mimic the factory round that works so good in my gun. Anyway, the factory rounds shot that day at 745fps, so that was my goal. Here is the short answer to your question: Zero 148 HBWC over 3.1 grs. of 231, using Winchester brass and Federal primers. That gave me the 745fps I was looking for. I hope it works for me, because all my match ammo is now loaded for this season. That's what I do in the winter since I can't shoot much.

That 3.9 grain loading must be with a solid, DEWC, not the hollow base bullet. Use the lighter load or sources state that you will blow the skirt off the wadcutter.

My PPC load for a M586 6" barrel has always been 3.5gr of Bullseye under a 158gr LSWC.

Never worked up a load with W231/HP-38. The Bullseye load worked so good, I never thought about something else. Maybe I will give it a go!

Anywhere between 3.2gr and 3.4gr W231 under that 148gr HBWC will be fine. You will have to see what charge your handgun likes best.

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SWCA #3437

ArchAngle hit it on the head. I expiermented with 231 from 3.0 to 3.4 in my PPC revolver. The best groups at 50yds with my revolver was with 3.3 gr 231.

Thanks everyone for the help.

One more basic question that I have is how do I know if my load is "blowing the skirt off" of my HBWC?
lbm

If you're lucky, two holes in the target. If you're unlucky, a bulged barrel if the skirt stays in the barrel.

Trying it just to see what happens is not recommended.

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Science plus Art

Would you use this same 3.1 to 3.3 load indoors at a maximum distance of only 50 feet?

I've shot PPC with people who had different loads for each range, including one guy with a color-coded ammo tray and a sight chart for each load at it's selected range.

I often wondered if he accidentally used his 10 yard load at 50 yards whether it would land short or just stick up in the cardboard.

I have one WC load in .38 Spl. I don't use WC for PPC, however.
KISS.

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Science plus Art

The loads the others suggested are good. However, if you have to speed load a HBWC is not going to be the best solution. I would recommend 125 grain LTCs or 158 grain LSWCs.

I was shooting 3.2 gr. of HP38 (same powder as 231) with the Zero 148 HBWC's from my PPC gun. They are accurate however they were leading the cylinder something ferocious, and the forcing cone more than I was use to. Another shooter was having the same problem with the Zero's, but I don't know what powder he uses. I am trying 3.1 grs. of HP38 with the Precision Delta 148 HBWC to see if that helps.

A charge of even 3.4gr W231 is not a hot charge and in all probability won't damage the bullet at all. The loads you get from between 3.1gr and 3.4gr W231 are really kinda mild and have very little chance of damaging the bullet. (but anything is possible)

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SWCA #3437

Would a load of 3.1 or 3.2 be correct for a 158 grain Zero SWC bullet?

No you'd want 3.5 - 3.8gr to get velocity needed with a swaged bullet .

I guess everyone's mileage varies. I use a Zero 158 swaged with 3 grains of Bullseye in a Model 14 and get dead-on accuracy at least out to 25 yards. I thought Alliant's listed maximum is 3.5 grains for a 158 Speer bullet which is also swaged.

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Pete

Were talking W231 not Bullseye . 3.1 - 3.4 BE should dive same velocity as 3.5 - 3.8 W231 with a Zero swaged 158 SWC / RN .

Whoops. My bad. I guess I lost track of what's what. Sorry.

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Pete

Let's not get too off track here. The OP is asking about a 148gr HBWC, not a 158gr SWC.

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SWCA #3437

In post # 19 he asks about 158 SWC load .

We would use 2.2 grs of Bullseye and it would drive tacks. When the sun was just right you could see the round go down range.

I hope I don't hijack or divert the thread, but I've had some leading issues with the Precision Delta 148 hbwc (match lube). I loaded them in 38 special cases (double cannelure-for wadcutters), over 2.7 grains of Bullseye, with about .10" bullet exposed. It leaded the forcing cone of three revolvers I shot it in (SW model 14, SW 27, and Ruger Security Six). Two of those revolvers are 357 chambered. Leading was seen within 10 rounds (two loads of 5 rounds), and I stopped to wire brush out the lead after 15 rounds fired. I bought the "match lube" as it was supposed to be better.

In trying to eliminate leading, I ran a bunch of the PD 148 gr HBWCs through my SAECO 0.360" sizing die with 50/50 NRA lube (beeswax/alox). I set up the lubing to lube both bullet grooves. I also loaded down to 2.5 grains of Bullseye. I reshot. No leading. Accuracy was excellent (5 shot groups that would be covered with a quarter at 50 feet from a two handed rested position).

I realize I changed two variables (lubed bullet and lower powder), but I wanted to eliminate leading. I'll play with it more (lubing one lube, then trying 2.7 grains of Bullseye).

I emailed my leading concern to Precision Delta, and within a few days I received a phone call (in the evening) from someone from PD who wanted to follow up on my concerns. He suggested running 2.9 grains of W231. He said they don't get any leading reports, and the the "match lube" was Rooster Jacket. I thought that was excellent customer service.

I just wish I didn't get leading at the 2.7 gr Bullseye loading. I may try running a batch of bullets with Lee Liquid alox, and let dry, or put a second coat of Rooster Jacket. Prec Delta may have to use a double coat of Rooster jacket themselves.

I haven't shot Zero bullets-can't compare leading to them.

Catboat, thanks for posting this. Last year....I loaded 2.8 B/E 148 Remmy's for the season and while accurate, I was frustrated with the slower loading process and dealing with the gumminess and mess.

this year I bought P/D 148 with Match Lube and was going to load the same 2.8.

would you suggest loading down to 2.5 or even 2.6 of B/E? I dont have the equip or even the time to re lube my lead.

to the OP....
before I switched to 148HBLSWC, I would shoot DEWC 148. My regular load for that was 3.0 to 3.1 of 231. it was light and accurate.

I load one bullet for both a 4" gun for LEO matches that allow WC and in my 6" PPC gun.

I just returned from the range and as of today have fired off several hundred reloads of .38 using both Bullseye and HP-38 (same as 231). I use 148 gr DEWC and SWC. As the last post said, I also find 3.1 of HP-38 works fine. Also 2.8 of Bullseye. The only difference, the Bullseye is dirtier than the HP but it cleans up well and isn't a problem.

Here's my 2 cents on the Zero 148gr. HBWC:

If you are determined to use W-231, a loading of 3.1-3.2gr. is optimal. Another excellent powder for this bullet is VV-N310. I currently load 3.0gr. of Titegroup for this bullet, as this powder has a slight edge in accuracy at 50 yds. slowfire over the VV-N310. These loads have been developed for a model 14 bullseye revolver.

All of this said, there is more than powder choices involved in developing a tack-driving load for the Zero 148gr. HBWC. I have a custom seating die just for this bullet, that only contacts the edge of the bullet's nose. I load this bullet a bit longer than most........COL is 1.160 with brass length of 1.145. I use a Redding taper crimp die to finish off the round. I get zilch leading with this formula. I believe that many leading issues with swaged bullets are caused by using a roll crimp(no matter how mild) that scrapes off a bit of lead as the bullet exits the case. You don't need no stinkin' roll crimp on a swaged bullet that has no cannelure, that is being fueled by a fast burning powder, and is loaded to pressures where "jumping crimp" is not an issue.

Here's what most of the guys at my club do for PPC loads.
Either PD HBWC or Zero DEWC over 2.3gr B.E. or 2.4gr Titegroup.

I used to use the Titegroup load until I tried the Bullseye load. The BE groups were quite a bit better. I also found 2.8gr and 3.4gr of Unique to be nearly as good as the 2.3gr BE, with 3.0 and 3.2 Unique just a bit behind the 2.8gr load.
How’s that for confusing.
The veteran PPC shooters at my club (consistently in the 596-599 scores) use the 2.3gr BE load as well. Me, I’ve been shooting PPC for 4.5 months, I am just getting into the 588-590 range for "Combat" and 565-574 range for "Service"
Shot today as a matter of fact in Fenton, Mich. 565 service and 585 24X Combat. My best score to date (during practice of course) is 590 32X, followed by 3 588's in a row.

Sometimes if you load too light you will cause leading because there isn't enough pressure to cause the bullet to seal in the barrel. When the gasses blow by the sides you get leading. I have a feeling that's your problem especially since you see the leading within 10 rounds. Up the charge weight a little and see if it clears up, I think it will.

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SWCA #3437

Hi,
I am the person that posted the original message and first of all I would like to thank everyone for helping me out on this. This is my first season of reloading and it has been a real learning curve.

My first conclusion, other then realizing how much I have to learn, is that my current load of 2.3 of W231 with Federal small pistol primers seems way to light to give me accuracy even at 50 feet.

Should back-up a step and let everyone know that I'm using a Dillon 550 new system with all Dillon dies. I have added an automatic shell feeder to speed up the process but other then that it is stock. My finished bullet length is 1.1500.

Seems that the concensis is that a load of 3.1 grains of W231 might be a good place for me to switch to. It also appears that my 2.3 grain load must be causing me some inconsistancy even at 50 feet indoors?

Thanks for all of the help.
lbm Michigan

One other thing that I should mention is that I have been averaging 561 in PPC with a high so far of 578. While this isn't great it isn't bad for my second season.
lbm

Well, went to the banquet last night, won a 4" Springfield Service XD 357 Mag! I missed out on a gun in the combat match, was 3 points too high again...got booted to the bottom of the next higher class. Same for my service class, only it was two points instead of three. But, at this particular match, they had an aggregate match score as well. This is the combined scores from both classes. I ended up high shot in the Master class and won the gun.
Now I just gotta decide if I can use a 357 Sig. I can't think of any real use. At $25-$30 a box, it's way too expensive to plink with or practice, even with reloading. I have never picked up 357 Sig brass...anywhere! I could always buy a 40 cal barrel for it, but then I'd have three of them, can't justify that either. Maybe I'll sell it and get a 45.
I almost traded it for a 5" XD9 while in line waiting to fill out the paperwork. But when the guy realized he won a 5" gun, he didn't want to.

tdan, I would like your details in loading VV-N310 using 148 HBWC?

to include powder charge and OAL.

I will be using PD 148s with match lube and want to try something different other than B/E and 231. I dont have any TightGroup but I do have AA#2.

this will be a dual use ammo for PPC out to 50 yds and LEO matches out to 25 yds to be used in a H/B PPC 6" M14, 6" 14-5 and a 4" 686. I want to find one slug and powder combo and stick with it for the entire year.

I loaded .358" remmy's last yr with 2.8 of B/E and while they were accurate....the loading process was very slow and quite messy.

I hope I get the same accuracy or better with .357" PDs.

I too was roll crimping for smoother reloads, but I will try your method of sticking the bullet out just a tad further with a mild taper crimp to improve speedloader feeding.

when my PDs are gone in a few months, I plan to buy Zero since they seem to have a good following with minimal posted issues.

thanks in advance

I use the same powder, 138 grain BNWC Bayou bullets, with 2.4 grains, Starline brass and Federal small primers. I use a Dillon 650 with Dillon dies but I'm in the process of switching the crimping die to a Lee. May switch all dies to Lee to get the carbide sizing die but I'm not thrilled with how the Lee de-primer works.

My PPC Combat gun has a bull barrel on a model 10 frame made by Mojo.

You can see my post regarding a Tight cylinder on my new Service class P 66-8.

Shoots very well from a Ransom Rest indoors.
lbm

I did a lot of test with a J frame 2" with the 148 HB and w231.

I then tried a 148 BBwc with a full load of w231 at 3.9grs for
a SD load, over my chrony.

If you try this load......
make sure you have a very firm grip on your weapon.

Luckily I pass by the zero plant weekly. While buying some reloads over the counter, she gave me this price list last week.....probably have to order through roze tho. Maybe this will save you a dollar.

Edit: ordering info

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You need to try a range of powder charges to find that just right load your gun dotes on...it's the only way to dial it in.
Read some of the other posts and see what they have found that works. Usually the very minimum is not the most accurate , I usually start in the middle , like at 3.3 grains and then try some lighter loads and some heavier loads and let the guns accuracy be the deciding factor.
Gary