Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500

tdan · #51 02-20-2011, 11:06 PM

<Looking at the photos you can see a bulge in the chamber that blew and the corresponding bend in the stop strap. I would guess there was too much fast burning powder and the spike in the pressure curve was more than the gun could handle.>

Bingo!........The photos indicate the case blew before the bullet cleared the barrel. This looks like the classic Kaboom caused by an overcharge of a fast burning powder. This would cause a huge pressure spike resulting in the case blowing up in the chamber before the bullet had a chance to fully exit the case. You can't really fault S&W for refusing a warranty repair after you told them I was ONLY using a light charge of a fast burning powder like Titegroup for my 500Mag loads. If you can afford shooting those relatively pricey bullets in your 500, you need to pony up for the proper amounts of a slow burning powder to properly launch those projectiles. I would be especially careful when working up loads approaching 60K psi that are only contained in a revolver cylinder.

grub348 · #52 02-20-2011, 11:35 PM

I personally don't know if it was an overcharge or undercharge of powder, but SOMEBODY has to say it, "Do you THINK you can fix her with a little J.B. Weld ?"

dla · #53 02-20-2011, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Ross

I have personally seen three (after the fact--I wasn't there for the KBs) and have heard of two more. I have heard of NO .500 KBs with ANY OTHER powder.

And that reaffirms my decision to not use TiteGroup in large cases - too darn easy to double. The stuff is only visible in new brass as it is the same color as soot. It is very dense which means that what sounds like a large weight doesn't take up much space.

Bullseye has scattered a lot of handguns over the years. Titegroup is worse than Bullseye.

bernieb90 · #54 02-21-2011, 01:26 AM

Quote:

I've fired 1000s of Titegroup .500 loads without incident using plated bullets that were taper crimped. Both times I've seen Titegroup-induced kBs, the offending rounds were roll-crimped. Since it is a .500, I think it's safe to assume that the roll crimps were probably on the strong side because that's the way that most people set their crimping dies when loading this beast.

My theory is this: When the powder ignites, the pressure builds to a slightly higher than normal level before the bullet even moves from the case (because of the roll crimp). The pressure then drops when the bullet starts to move, and then spikes again when the bullet encounters the rifling.

By the time the second spike hits, whatever additive the manufacturer had put in the powder to make it non-position sensitive has burned off, and the second spike causes much higher than normal pressure, which causes the revolver to come apart.

Both times I've seen it happen, the bullet never left the business end of the barrel. In one case it was lodged in the forcing cone, in the other we found it lying on the bench.

Hello I am new to this forum. I would like to introduce myself. I have been shooting for over 20 years, and I own a S&W 640 revolver. I saw this discussion linked in another forum, and had to come, and join as this subject is of great interest to me as a shooter.

I have succesfully used Titegroup to load .44 mag, .38 Spl., .357 mag, and .45 ACP. I think there are better choices for these applications than Titegroup.

I found the above observation very interesting, and would like to offer my own theory. I think that the heavy crimp is the culprit in big revolvers KBing, but not for the reason above.

Heavy crimps can sometimes cut through the jacket enough to significantly weaken it. In plated bullets that have thin plated "jackets", and soft swaged cores they may cut through completely. Big revolver cartridges are often very heavily crimped.

As the gun is fired the core, and jacket head down the forcing cone, and separate as they hit the rifling. Shooter sees hole in target, and recoil seems normal. Part of the jacket is now a barrel obstruction. Gun is fired again, and KB. This is why the bullet never leaves the barrel, and why you have never seen it with taper crimps.

Jellybean · #55 02-21-2011, 11:33 AM

Hi bernieb90, welcome to the forum.

I've been comtemplating EddieCroyles theory too since he posted it. I only have one (that I know of) loading manual that discusses some of what he mentions and it is only specific about their products. The things he mentions does raise pressures and a lot of it would depend on the specific make-up and burning characteristics of Titegroup. But there is one thing that makes me hesitant to accept it and that is Titegroup is used in many calibers for the specific reason to give low velocities in large cases with very small charges of powder. I would think that the exact same problem would arise with the other cartridges also. Granted they are not as large as the .500 case and the charges used are appreciably larger, but we must also consider the pressure capabilities of the gun in question as compared to the others used. The .500 is rated to handle a cartridge rated to 60,000 psi, so just how high is a proof load for this gun? When handguns blow up, they aren't just a little over the pressure max. they are rated to handle. The other calibers would be pretty similar in scale not only in the excess space and powder charge but also how much pressure they can tolerate before they blow up. And even if they don't blow up there would still be enough of a pressure difference that the shooter would be aware of a problem when the bullet left the barrel.

I think there is more to it than just a heavy crimp and the spikes are taken into consideration when the load is devloped. No offense Eddie, and since my opinion is all supository it doesn't mean squat.

PJS50 · #56 02-21-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellybean

PJS50, can you give me a source or link to the reports you read about the fast powders detonating? You can never have too much information. Welcome to the forum, and please excuse my lack of manners.

Sure Jellybean... My buddy owns the little booklet that I read that in. I'll ask him the name of it and the author...

No lack of manners Jelly! Thanks for the welcomes to the forum by everyone...

Check this rifle Kaboom out:
rifle blow up - 300 Rem Ultra Mag - Topic Powered by Social Strata

The above event is pretty significant to me as I was sitting at the shooting bench right next to this .300RUM rifle when it went KABOOM (I am PJS50 on that site too)! I have the scars from the 5 staples in the head when scrapnel from the rifle hit me and permanent tinitus in my ears from the KABOOM's report, even though I was wearing ear protection... People tell me I'm lucky to be alive...

I wish people would be more carefull when they decide to take up the job of reloading ammunition, because even if they escape serious injury, like the shooter in my case did, the people surrounding them are usually not as lucky...

Jellybean · #57 02-21-2011, 06:25 PM

PJS50, interesting read! I realize the thread's a few years old, how is your hearing now? And have you suffered any other long term effects.

I don't have much experience with Savage rifles, but if they are like Remingtons I would have suspected the restocking of the rifle.

WR Moore · #58 02-22-2011, 04:45 PM

About the self indexing progressive loaders....... Where double charges can ocurr is either through powder bridging in the measure/load tube (when it finally drops, the charge weight is unknown) or, the more likely situation, where the machine baulks at some point. This generally results in some pumping of the operating lever and some wiggling of the feed mechanism/shell plate to free the malfuntion. This can result in multiple powder dumps into whatever case is in the powder feed position at the time.

The immediate action drill after getting the press running again is to pull the cases on the shell plate/in the loading process and dump any powder. You then have to start the loading cycle all over again. Depending upon how much manipulation of the machine was necessary, pulling the bullets from any loaded rounds on the machine is cheaper than a new weapon and the possible hospital bills.

Unfortunately, too many people take too many things for granted and refuse to admit they may have screwed up. I've seen a number of destroyed weapons and in every instance I can recall, the cause was a powder overload. In one case, by someone who bought the wrong powder and didn't think it made any difference.

Bowenx · #59 02-23-2011, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WR Moore

About the self indexing progressive loaders....... Where double charges can ocurr is either through powder bridging in the measure/load tube (when it finally drops, the charge weight is unknown) or, the more likely situation, where the machine baulks at some point. This generally results in some pumping of the operating lever and some wiggling of the feed mechanism/shell plate to free the malfuntion. This can result in multiple powder dumps into whatever case is in the powder feed position at the time.

That's what I did a couple years back while loading .45acp for my Kimber. I was setup using TiteGroup and was having shell plate sticking issues. Looking back I can't say why I never bothered to check the cases in the queue - but i should have.
As a result - i did blow up my Kimber 1911 and was very lucky to only have rec'd a few tiny pieces of metal in my nose and face (small enough that most fell out on their own within a week - but one is still lodged in my nose - but it's the size of a period -> .

I've reloaded many rifle rounds since then using the turret press however I'm still leery about firing up the progressive press again. I know what changes I'll make next go around - but seeing the look on my (then) 8 month pregnant wife when i came home from the range with my pistol in a baggie, soot on my hands and face and a wee bit of blood on my nose was enough to give pause and evaluate my reloading process and think twice before i start it up again.

John Ross · #60 02-23-2011, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bernieb90

I think that the heavy crimp is the culprit in big revolvers KBing, but not for the reason above.

Heavy crimps can sometimes cut through the jacket enough to significantly weaken it. In plated bullets that have thin plated "jackets", and soft swaged cores they may cut through completely. Big revolver cartridges are often very heavily crimped.

As the gun is fired the core, and jacket head down the forcing cone, and separate as they hit the rifling. Shooter sees hole in target, and recoil seems normal. Part of the jacket is now a barrel obstruction. Gun is fired again, and KB. This is why the bullet never leaves the barrel, and why you have never seen it with taper crimps.

All .500 blowups I've seen were with cast bullets. And I don't think part of a jacket in the bore would more than double the pressure of the next round fired, and I think that is what it would take to blow the gun. Destruction testing of M29s years ago at the Super Vel lab revealed that M29s let go around 115,000 CUP. The X-frame is stronger than a 29.

To reiterate: This was almost certainly a double charge. I'd like to know the pressure of 34 grains of Titegroup with a 370 grain cast bullet. And a previous poster's comment about the sooty look of TG in a fired case being hard to see is a good point. That was news to me as I've never bought a pound of the stuff.

CAJUNLAWYER · #61 02-23-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dla

Total BS. This is why these old-wives tales keep circulating around and around on forums. Absolute total BS. I wish there was a BS icon.

Here ya go

bernieb90 · #62 02-23-2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Ross

All .500 blowups I've seen were with cast bullets. And I don't think part of a jacket in the bore would more than double the pressure of the next round fired, and I think that is what it would take to blow the gun. Destruction testing of M29s years ago at the Super Vel lab revealed that M29s let go around 115,000 CUP. The X-frame is stronger than a 29.

To reiterate: This was almost certainly a double charge. I'd like to know the pressure of 34 grains of Titegroup with a 370 grain cast bullet. And a previous poster's comment about the sooty look of TG in a fired case being hard to see is a good point. That was news to me as I've never bought a pound of the stuff.

Even minor barrel obstructions can significantly raise pressure. Lots of people have blown up guns due to dirt, snow, and even a crayon in the barrel.

If the KBs are happening with cast bullets then the only explaination is as you said a double charge.

I wonder is S&W would be willing sto sacrifice a couple guns to show what happens when you double charge a .500 with fast burning powder. If they can get the results to look like the OPs photo it would be a pretty definitive indication that that is what's going on in these cases.

Maximumbob54 · #63 02-23-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grub348

I personally don't know if it was an overcharge or undercharge of powder, but SOMEBODY has to say it, "Do you THINK you can fix her with a little J.B. Weld ?"

Looks like a starter kit for a modern open top model. The modern remake of the Walker Colt... Smith and Wesson styled...

S.B. · #64 10-04-2013, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Ross

Well, yes, but thousands of tests by the powder companies pale in comparison to the hundreds of millions of "tests" conducted by shooters. Hence my statement:

"In my opinion, there have been far too many reports of weird things happening when extra-light charges are used (most of them by cowboy action shooters) to dismiss them all as reloading error. Again, there’s a simple way to avoid any possibility of detonation ever happening to you: Stick with loads that fill most or all of the available case capacity. Want a lighter load? Use a slower powder."

Although I didn't say it, loading this way also makes double charges impossible. And yes, I think a double charge is the LIKELIEST explanation for this event, but I am not willing to say it is the ONLY explanation.

Hmmmmm definitely got me thinking about changing powders, now. Thanx for posting this.
Steve

rwsmith · #65 10-04-2013, 09:59 PM

Thank you for showing us the ugly truth.

dla · #66 10-04-2013, 11:11 PM

Thanks (sarcastically) for reviving a 2 year old thread where a bunch of old-fogers argue about space-aliens when the obvious is a double-charge. Classic double. Loading on a single-stage with a load block.

Titegroups · #67 10-05-2013, 04:34 AM

Detonation my ***. A simple double charge im sure. A reloader with maybe a little too much experience, getting up there in years and not willing to admit a bit less sharp than when they were when they were younger and making an error when charging a case. No need for long theories on a non existant phenomenon. Titegroup has a very high energy content per volume and therefore leaves little room error when loading. May I reccomend trail boss at the other end of the spectrum, about as foolproof as one gets and I bet nobody ever experiences a detonation with it.

Titegroups · #68 10-05-2013, 06:01 AM

Hate it when people revive dead threads. Awesome.

jfp357 · #69 10-05-2013, 07:14 AM

WOW ! I will check my loads carefully..........AND listen and feel for click... pops.

silentflyer · #70 10-05-2013, 07:22 AM

Another reason I only load with powders that by volume, fill the case. No way can I get a double charge.

scooter123 · #71 10-05-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titegroups

Detonation my ***. A simple double charge im sure. A reloader with maybe a little too much experience, getting up there in years and not willing to admit a bit less sharp than when they were when they were younger and making an error when charging a case. No need for long theories on a non existant phenomenon. Titegroup has a very high energy content per volume and therefore leaves little room error when loading. May I reccomend trail boss at the other end of the spectrum, about as foolproof as one gets and I bet nobody ever experiences a detonation with it.

I have to agree with this conclusion. Everything I have read indicates that it's actually rather difficult to get Smokeless powders to actually Detonate. Basically, modern smokeless powders are sort of a High Octane propellant with a designed in resistance to Detonation (or "knocking). However looking at the case capacity of the 500 Magnum reveals that it's almost 3.4cc. According to my Lee Dipper chart 17 grains of Titegroup would use up just about 1.5cc of that 3.4cc volume. So, there is plenty of room in the case for a double charge of Titegroup. With a fast burning powder like Titegroup that can result in a rapid rise to pressure to levels that exceed the strength of the chamber containing the cartridge. Technically, this isn't a Detonation event because odds are that powder was actually burning properly, however it was an Over Pressure Event that did an impressive job of blowing up a rather expensive firearm.

This is one reason why I still like to use a single stage press. It allows me to satisfy my OCD tendencies and actually look into a tray of charged cases before setting the bullets in place.

PJS50 · #72 10-06-2013, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter123

I have to agree with this conclusion. Everything I have read indicates that it's actually rather difficult to get Smokeless powders to actually Detonate. Basically, modern smokeless powders are sort of a High Octane propellant with a designed in resistance to Detonation (or "knocking). However looking at the case capacity of the 500 Magnum reveals that it's almost 3.4cc. According to my Lee Dipper chart 17 grains of Titegroup would use up just about 1.5cc of that 3.4cc volume. So, there is plenty of room in the case for a double charge of Titegroup. With a fast burning powder like Titegroup that can result in a rapid rise to pressure to levels that exceed the strength of the chamber containing the cartridge. Technically, this isn't a Detonation event because odds are that powder was actually burning properly, however it was an Over Pressure Event that did an impressive job of blowing up a rather expensive firearm.

This is one reason why I still like to use a single stage press. It allows me to satisfy my OCD tendencies and actually look into a tray of charged cases before setting the bullets in place.

I totally forgot about this thread until it was brought back from the dead...
YES, Scooter & Titegroup, smokeless powder (especially the faster ones or the single nitro-based slower ones; like the ones made for .50cal/20mm) ARE cap-sensitive (they will detonate with the right frequency "punch" to start the detonation wave). I'm not sure how easy it is to do, but it can happen.
I owe this info to Jellybean as well...

I called my friend where I first read about the above facts, the book you want to look up is called:

New & Improved C-4
Author: Ragnar Benson
Publisher: Paladin Press
ISBN#: 0-87364-839-0

In that book the author says that the powder itself (he specifically mentions Bullseye), with a cap to initiate it, makes an explosive equivalent in speed to military grade TNT.
After I heard about this, I often wondered if the guys who blew up smaller framed .357 revolvers with extremely light PPC loads of Bullseye, accidentally put together the "just right" set of circumstances to cause that powder to detonate???
It only makes sense that detonation actually occured in these cases because a couple of grains of Bullseye should never create enough pressure to explode a .357Mag. cylinder, should it?

fredj338 · #73 10-06-2013, 04:41 PM

I wouldn't use TG for anything, certainly not a 500. That was not a detonation but a double charge. You would never see it inside the huge 500 case. TG, one of those ideas better left on the engineering table. IMO, using something like TG in a 500, totally inappropriate choice, is just a Darwin project.

roundgunner · #74 10-06-2013, 09:24 PM

So I guess I should not be using Mag primers for 6gr of Titegroup with a 250 Cast SWC in my 45 Colt.

If anybody proves BE or TG acts like TNT we will all be terrorist for talking about it.
Big brother NSA IS watching us you know.

Nemo288 · #75 10-07-2013, 01:04 AM

A quick guestimate with QL shows 116Kpsi+ with 34 gr of TG under
a 350 cast. With room left over for more! (88%).
I use 7 gr of unique or universal in 44's all the time but they are never
as accurate as full house rounds of 2400 or 296. I am taking JR's advice
to heart and rethinking how I go about reducing loads in the 445 which is the 500's lil brother.
Too bad the Dan Wesson is not as strong as the X frame.
It develops endshake even with "normal" loads.
The way the crane is held in the frame is kind of odd and depends on a teensy lil piece of metal.
I would love for S&W to chamber the big X in 445.

---
Nemo

fredj338 · #76 10-07-2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roundgunner

So I guess I should not be using Mag primers for 6gr of Titegroup with a 250 Cast SWC in my 45 Colt.

If anybody proves BE or TG acts like TNT we will all be terrorist for talking about it.
Big brother NSA IS watching us you know.

No you can, there are just better choices.

roundgunner · #77 10-07-2013, 10:33 PM

That was kind of tongue in cheek. I don't think I will quit using Titegroup anytime soon. I have used pound after pound of it and buy more whenever I can find it. It really is my go to powder for standard loads.

The magnum primers was in jest...

BLUEDOT37 · #78 10-08-2013, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJS50

...I found this on the net and I think it is possibly useful for the analysis here:
Reloading Speeds vs. Powder Location in Case Page

Granted, the above comparisons were done with much slower powder in .45 Colt caliber, but I think this guy is on to something...

This test used 10.0gr/Unique with 250 & 255gr cast bullets. (Not knowing his exact bullet dimensions I used some I have for these weight bullets.) A 250gr bullet that has .346" seating depth would be 73% full. A 255gr bullet that has .366" seating depth would be 75% full, both with 10grs/Unique. It's surprising that even at these volumes you could still get that much variation.

Nemo288 · #79 10-08-2013, 06:54 PM

Not sure if I have mentioned this in this thread but ML "Mic" McPherson
suggests seating bullets deeper than normal in loads like those to increase
accuracy and reliability.

Thoughts On Improving Revolver Loads

This is almost opposite to what Veral Smith opines in his little book.

Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets

I have not tried this yet but it sounds logical and will be my next experiment.
I just got Mic's new reloading tome from Safari Books and it is quite
entertaining and completely different from any other such book I have read.

---
Nemo

manyguns · #80 10-08-2013, 08:25 PM

Gee I must have a death wish. I am just starting my second 35lb. keg of Titegroup. I have used it in .32 H&R, 9mm. .38 Special, 44 Special, .45 ACP & .45 Colt with excellent results. And I use a Dillon 550 too! Just pay attention when you reload.

Rpg · #81 10-08-2013, 10:52 PM

I first heard of 'detonation' in reference to very light loads in 38spcl

That was in the 1970's (when I heard about it).

I suspect most of these were overloads. But the 38 and the revolvers for it were well established.

Just as important to me, the 38 is a low pressure cartridge, even in its +p versions.

The 500 operates at pressures commensurate with modern bolt action rifle cartridges.

I wonder what a high tech examination of these revolvers would show.

It wouldn't surprise me to discover flaws in the revolver

Just my speculation, of course.

Fishslayer · #82 10-09-2013, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dla

Thanks (sarcastically) for reviving a 2 year old thread where a bunch of old-fogers argue about space-aliens when the obvious is a double-charge. Classic double. Loading on a single-stage with a load block.

My first thought was "Why would anybody load .500 S&W with Titegroup in the first place?"

I always read anything I come across re the detonation/flashover/SEE/whatever hoping to find somebody has finally proven one way or the other. Not yet, though there is some strong evidence it MAY happen with light charges of slow rifle powder in bottleneck cases, strong enough to make me believe in it in those cases.

No evidence that I've seen whatsoever of it happening with fast powder in straight wall cases.

S.B. · #83 10-24-2015, 04:37 PM

This isn't the first that has happened, back when I shot Bullseye matches the use of target loads(.38 & .45 ACPs) with Bullseye powder had some serious blow ups then also.
Steve

Rule3 · #84 10-24-2015, 04:46 PM