38/44 Loads using Unique?

[jsfricks]

I just ordered some Missouri Bullet Co. 158 gr. SWC bullets. I want to load the 38/44 with these with what powder I already have if possible, since we all know how hard powder is to find. I have Unique, Bullseye, 700x,800x, w231 and Trailboss. The two guns I will be using for this is a 1935 38/44 Outdoorsman and a 1937 38/44 Heavy Duty. I want a load that these guns were made for. I've done a lot of searching but most everything calls for 2400. Anyone have proven loads with what I've stated?

[epj]

Of what you have listed, I suspect that Unique will come the closest to what you want.

[Vulcan Bob]

What epj said. My third new reloading book was the infamous Speer number eight. In the .38 Special data for the 158gr LSWC there were loads using Unique that rival some current day .357 Mag. factory ammo. If I remember right they were fairly accurate loads. I still have the #8 but I will not openly post that data.

[ArchAngelCD]

Of the powders you listed I would use either Unique of W231.

[jsfricks]

Thanks for all the input. I found a copy of the Speer #8 reloading manual and it has one load using Unique and the 158 gr SWC. I'll start with the low end of what's listed there. It also list Reddot, 700x, and Bulleye loads.

[Treeman]

Probably the best powder in your list for a 38/44 load is 800X-but there is little data for it in loads over "standard" in 38 spl. OTOH Unique was used to push things up frequently in days of yore. Sierra showed charges of up to 6.4 Unique with 158gr jacketed. George Nonte once published pressure data for heavy .38 loads- I think he had 6.0 of Unique at 25k CUP with 158 cast.

[Nevada Ed]

You can use the Speer #8 data just notice that the weapon used was a "K" frame 38 special.
If you try any loads in a "J" frame you need to start at the lower end of the data.

Are you shooting a "N" frame for the 38/44 loads?

Stay safe.

[tlay]

Jeff, I too would go with the Unique. If you have to you can go with some of the 38 special +P recipes. Just make sure you give a good crimp. Are you using the Lee factory crimp die? I find that it gives a decent crimp for 38 special.

[jsfricks]

Originally Posted by Nevada Ed

You can use the Speer #8 data just notice that the weapon used was a "K" frame 38 special.
If you try any loads in a "J" frame you need to start at the lower end of the data.

Are you shooting a "N" frame for the 38/44 loads?

Stay safe.

Yes, as I stated, both guns will be N frames, and Outdoorsman and an HD from the 30's. I'm wanting to shoot some loads that these guns were designed for.

[tlay]

Jeff, I forgot to mention something. What type of lube do the bullets have? If you are going to push the bullet at 357 speed then you need a good lube. I use the Lee liquid Alox. It seems to do well at 357 speed.

[jsfricks]

Originally Posted by tlay

Jeff, I forgot to mention something. What type of lube do the bullets have? If you are going to push the bullet at 357 speed then you need a good lube. I use the Lee liquid Alox. It seems to do well at 357 speed.

They are inbound from Missouri Bullet Company so I haven't viewed them yet.

[tlay]

Jeff, do you know if they are gas-check? If they are that will help. But I have gone up to 1300fps in a 357 with some lead bullets in my pre27 with no leading with a good lube.

[Alk8944]

jsfricks,

Of what you list Unique is the best choice. Chronographed in my Outdoorsman with the RCBS 38-158 SWCGC with 6.4 gr. Unique averaged 1145 fps for 20 rounds in the first trial, and 1124 fps for 15 rounds the second trial a few weeks later.

Published data in my 1944 "Gun Digest" lists velocity for the factory load at 1115 fps from a 5" barrel, virtually identical adjusted for barrel length. Note: My Outdoorsman runs a bit slow, often giving the same velocity, (.38 Spl. of course!) as my 4" Model 19, despite the 2 1/2" difference in barrel length. If your gun gives normal velocities you could probably drop to 6.2 gr. Unique and get approximately the same velocity.

[Peter M. Eick]

I would start at 5 grns and work it up over a chrono. My experience matches ALK above. About 6.5 grns gets you a good 38/44 velocity. It is a hot load though as unique is a bit quick.

You might consider Herco, 4756 or 2400 as alternates.

[Treeman]

Berserker, The powders haven't changed (not even 2400 other than small lot to lot variations) but the data has(though in fairness the #8 38 special data still does what Speer said it did) The Issues are a higher accepted pressure ceiling for 38 spl than Is now "allowed and data for SR4756 that goes WAY beyond current levels. Sierra data of the same time period was similar. What we don't know is if Speer and Sierra both got an extra slow lot of 4756 that let them go higher than average lots would have (given how closely modern 4756 chronos to the Speer #8 it seems doubtful) or if they just pushed it really hard in the 38/44 era and went a little beyond even "Hi- Velocity" factory loads but they cut back hard on 4756 in later data. Almost everything .38 spl is lower now due to different criteria for determining "max".

[Berserker]

Alot of people claim 2400 is hotter then it was for Elmer Keith. Dunno.

I was just reading an article from around 2005, discussing reading pressure signs vs using an actual machine. It did discuss years ago they just read the signs. Discussed how some times this works, but often you can exceed pressure before a primer is flattened or a bolt sticks.

I had 47th Lyman and last week bought 49th. Mostly for new pwders like Hunter and H110. I don't think they were in the old one. Having the newest is probably the best, unless you have an old cartridge, then that is all you got.

[Treeman]

I know that a lot of people have claimed that 2400 is hotter.........but I don't think they remembered just how hot some of their old loads were....and when you stoked it hot a hotter lot "shows out". Personally I had batches from the 1970s and 2010 that acted exactly alike and so did some other folk. The nature of canister grade powder is that it supposed to act the same from can to can and lot to lot, Exactly? Always? Well no, even with tight tolerances variations do occur. In fact we can measure variations even loading the same component lots on the same tools and shooting them in the same firearms on different days! That is why we are cautioned to drop back 5=10% on max loads anytime we start with a new lot. In low pressure rounds that don't demonstrate many "pressure signs" it probably doesn't really matter-even if pressures jump a bit at a switch it doesn't show and isn't likely to be hazardous. 2400 has been used to load heavy in "high pressure" handgun rounds so it can have a more dramatic effect.

[Berserker]

Up until recently I never even thought of the difference between canisters. I buy 1lb, it is easier to handle and not as much $.

Depending how much shooting I do with my 30-06, I should consider big can that would last me for years. Same with maybe some of the hand gun powders that I use more.

I am logging all my data, so that in the future, I don't have to screw around with building up loads. But I have not kept track of my powder canisters.

[Peter M. Eick]

4756, aa9, aa7, and aa5 all come to mind as high lot to lot variability. This is why I switched over to 8 lb jugs instead of the 1 lb cans. Now I just work up over the chrono to either my accuracy specs or velocity specs. My observation is lot to lot velocities can be as much a 10% either way.

What I do is look for pressure signs, and performance breaks when I work up loads. I also work up in beasts of guns that can handle overshoots. (38/44s, Redhawk 357 magnums)

So today, if I were out of 4756 (it pains me even to write that which is why I have 40 lbs of it stockpiled), I would get some unique or herco and start working it up over the chrono to get a 158 lswc moving at least 1150 fps. I would then be looking for excursions or inconsistencies in the velocity increase to powder increase. Any non-linearity would be a sign to stop and back down below that level.

I personally try to avoid ball powders in revolvers and I feel it contributes to the "flame cut" in the frame.

[Vulcan Bob]

Originally Posted by Berserker

Because the data is outadated, the powders have changed, like 2400? I don't want your data, just trying to figure if you are a weenie or drama queen.

Hey Berserker, neither a weenie nor drama queen. Just did not want someone using that data and then stuffing it into an aluminum J frame. Besides that post was a reply to jsfricks not to you personally and we did PM about the issue. As for the "weenie" thing my screen name has nothing to do with Star Trek rather a name given to me for my first cruiser type motorcycle. As for drama, I prefer to keep it off of Lee's forum. Been reloading for forty six years now and have learned to be cautious about sharing data especially the old stuff.

[jsfricks]

Thanks for all the help. I have the Speer #8 book coming in the mail today that I got off Ebay. That and y'all's input will give me something to go by.

[MikeyB]

Good info for the 38/44 on castboolits website. Use Google search to find pics of the load data.

[Peter M. Eick]

Ah Speer 8. The "Magic book of Spells" as it was called by some.

[epj]

If you have difficulty finding Unique, I have found that Universal is ALMOST a direct substitute. Not exactly, but very close.

[LoboGunLeather]

My .38 Special +P load is 5.4 Unique with 158-cast SWC. Lyman manual indicates 18,000CUP and 945FPS from a 4" barrel. Recoil is sharp in the K-frame revolvers, that extra half-pound of steel in the large frame should be nice to have.

My 3 basic loads for .38 Special are:
1. Practice: 158 cast SWC, 4.5 Unique
2. Field use: 158 cast SWC, 5.0 Unique
3. Plus P: 158 cast SWC, 5.4 Unique

I frequently substitute the 150-cast SWC-HP with the same loads.

[Nevada Ed]

You did look at the date of post #23...... right?

but since the grave is open,
I would have used up the old 800-x for the job.

[boatbum101]

I worked up some loads in my pre 23 ODM 6 1/2" . 7.5grs 800X / Fed 100 with LY 358429 173gr SWC ran 1223fps ES 64 SD 14 & had no problem holding the 10 ring on a B-8 @ 25yds like the 2400 loads ( same Keith bullet ) accuracy & spreads did not tighten until the 1200 + fps range ( 12.5grs same bullet ran 1235fps ). H4227 @ 12.5grs WSPM cap same bullet runs 1150ish & tighter groups . All hotter than the more reasonable 7.5grs SR4756 Fed 100 w/ Keith 358429 @ 1100fps , 8.0grs with a RCBS 158 or 358156 . 5.5grs Unique is +P w/ a 158 , 7.0grs Unique w/ a 158 is 357 mag territory . My gun was made in 1953 , OPs are even older . ? is how much do you want to push an irreplacable .
Case capacity & pressure limit make efficent powder choices somewhat limited for these type loads . Slower powders don't reach their preferred pressures within the 1150fps limit .

[SuperMan]

6.0 of Unique about duplicates the original .38-44 loads. They were listed in the 1946 SHOOTERS BIBLE as 1115 fps with a 158 LSWC from a 5" barrel.

I just got done shooting some a few hours ago from a 649-2 and a 3" 60-10.

Cases drop right out.

Buffalo Bore makes the same loads in both a 158 soft case gas check HP and a 158 hardcast.

Bob

[Mike, SC Hunter]

My first reloading manual in the early 70's was the Speer #8. I used and never stretched or blew anything up. My 38/44 had been reamed to .357 before I bought it so that's what I shoot in it. My load 13.5 grs of #2400 behind my 168 gr cast SWC. No pressure signs and easy extraction.

[27 Man]

I have a Lyman Ideal Handbook no. 39 (May 1953). For the 158 grain Thompson H.P gas check or 158 grain wadcutter(semi), they list 6.4 Unique at 1154 fps and 13.5 of 2400 at 1227.

[tom2]

My idea would be that those are first of all, now expensive, pretty collectible revolvers. Would be interesting to duplicate period .38-44 ammo in them but as for me, it would be an experiment and then set aside that hot stuff for serious business or something. No point in accumulating alot of wear and tear on a constant diet of hot loads especially when it may be hard to get correct parts or expensive to have them gone thru and tightened up. Maybe get a more modern less valuable N frame gun to pound with hundreds of near the edge loads from old manuals.