Hi all!

Last week I accidentally bought pure lead cast bullets - not jacketed. I just loaded my first batch of rounds, and tested several clips to see if they cycled through my S&M M&Pc 9mm well. They seemed to cycle through fine, and I continued to make more. After I made the amount I wanted to fire for today and cleaned up, I took a better look at my pistol and found lead shavings in the receiver and what not.

I'm afraid that this will cause "leading" and jams. I do plan to clean my gun excessively when I'm doing firing it (as I usually do - at least a light clean).

Will these non-jacketed rounds, and the leading they cause, do damage to my barrel within 100 rounds fired before cleaning? How hard is it to clean leading out of the barrel, seeing that the lead might get bonded to it?

Should I even fire these, or "bite the bullet" as they say and give the rounds away and buy jacketed bullets. Regardless, I plan on finding some jacketed bullets, but I want to shoot tonight, and the cast bullets are all I have.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks,
--EthanG

Are you sure they are PURE lead, I don't know why anyone would even sell those.

If they are, they won't hurt your barrel and a good brush, solvent and a healthy dose of elbow grease should take of it for you.

I qualified on an indoor range years ago and the chief supplied us with the ranges reloads. When I got home I couldn't see any rifling in my barrel as the lead had filled it in. I used a Hoppes Tornado brush and a Hoppes lead remover, (same as the Lewis.) and the lead came out in long strips.

Shoot em' up. The amount of leading will depend on how hard they are and how well the size matches your bore. I use mostly lead bullets with no problems. If you don't like the way they perform, get jacketed or copper coated next time.

Thank you both.

I will have to shoot them and see, I suppose. I just hope that the lead shards don't cause jams and junk up my barrel and such. Right now, I only have a .22 cleaning kit. Every time I shoot, I just run some oiled patches down the barrel, but I guess I need to get a 9mm sized brush. I will see what I can do about that.

I think I would rather pay a little more for the jacketed and clean less.

S&M has a lifetime warranty, doesn't it? If the leading were to get really bad (not to say I am going to let it, but...), is the barrel still covered under the warranty?

Read a few of the many threads on cast bullets.

Pure lead is best left to muzzle loading 'smokepoles' and percussion (cap & ball) revolvers.

Properly alloyed , sized and lubed , hardcast lead bullets will leave as little fouling as jacketed. If ya can scratch the bullets with yer fingernail , they're too soft.

Yes, you need to get the proper size brush for your 9mm (same as 38,357) Actually you need to get several as the wear out. You can also get a 40 caliber brush (oversized) and it will help scape out lead if you actually do have it in the lands and grooves. Just a patch with solvent is not enough. Brush the barrel 10-12 times, then run a patch of solvent through and let it sit for a while, brush again, then patch and you will get it out.
No leading is not covered under warranty most any damage done by reloads is not covered BUT you are not going to damage your barrel using lead bullets, they are softer than the barrel steel.

Where did you get the bullets? What name or brand are they?

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Still Running Against the Wind

If you're worried about leading use a jacketed bullet for the last round in every mag.

For a detailed tutorial on cast bullets and the the way to get the best out of them go to Welcome To Penn Bullets INC. and go to the reoading tips section and read all of it. Great source of info.

What is making you think these are pure lead bullets? I would think they would be a lead alloy. I have been reloading and shooting lead (alloy) bullets in everything from cowboy sixguns to Thompson semi-auto carbines to .45 ACP, to big honkin' .44 mags fired at very high velocities. All clean up just fine with a proper solvent and correct size brush.

Even shooting jacketed bullets will foul your barrel. It's the nature of the beast. Use a name brand copper and powder fouling solvent for cleaning when you shoot jacketed.


I guess the jury is still out on the "shoot a jaketed round after shooting lead to clean out the barrel." I have never found this to work. I would say the the jacketed rounds, if anything, when shot through a leaded barrel, simply makes the lead harder to remove. Can't say for sure, but I don't count on it doing any good. Just clean your gun regularly.

Good luck,

WG840

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Freedom above all else.

i'm with the rest...why would you think they are pure lead?the odds are against this...most of us have shot lead for years....it's not even a factor

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Okay, so assuming they're commercial alloy, not pure lead, the first thing I would do is clean all the copper out of your barrel so that any copper remnants are shaving lead as the cast bullet goes downrange. Then after you slug the barrel to see what diameter it really is, then see what the diameter of the 9mm cast bullet is. My nines don't like anything smaller than .357 in a cast bullet, so a "too small" bullet will cause leading.

.... back from the range. Fired three shots, got one stuck in the barrel. Seems I had a "light load" or fired a round with no powder at all. So, yeah, that sucked. I need to buy a bullet puller and go through all the 100 rounds (minus 3), and scrap them. Then use a digital scale and make things more exact.

I ended up doing these rounds in question late last night, and I should have taken more time to do it. I learned the hard way. I was just so eager to shoot tonight, and it backfired!

SO! Instead of what is the best way to "get the lead out" of a barrel, what is the best way to get a lodged lead bullet out? I am guessing some oil, a wooden dowel, and a hammer?

If you use a kinetic bullet puller you may not need to scrap the bullets and there is probably no reason to scrap the brass. Under or over charging during reloading can result in a very dangerous situation. As you have found out a round with no power will result in a bullet lodged in the bore. Had you not noticed the squib and chambered another round and fired it the result could have been devastating. The same with an over charged round. Distractions during a reloading session are the major cause for erroneous loading. Yes you can tap the lodged bullet out with a wood dowel rod. Obviously make certain the firearm is unloaded. Concerning leading and cleaning, you may find some information in the below sticky, as well as, other posts here in the forum concerning the topics. Hope this helps.
Thoughts on bore fouling and cleaning

__________________
Doug

A wooden dowel is what is used in most cases. If too much oil is used you can actually make it worse. In some machine situations it seals off all the air and causes a hydraulic lock, so to speak, like a vacuum seal. Light coat is best.

In machinery work, I have seen the hydraulic affect used to an advantage. Sometimes dowel pins get stuck so bad there is no other way to get them out than using a bit of oil, a punch that fills the hole within thousandths of an inch and a hammer. You will not have to do that for your bullet. Just talking!

How did you load the cases in the first place? Single stage, progressive, turret? Sometimes lessons learned are best learned the hard way. Fortunately no one was hurt.

As for your original question about leading: The best way for it to get out is to not allow it to be put in in the first place. There seems to be this notion that anytime a lead bullet is fired there will be leading, lots of leading. Nothing could be further from the truth. You need to work up your loads so that you minimize any possibility of leading. How do you do that? You make sure of two things: #1. The bullet fits your firearm. .001" to .002" above throat or bore size depending on the type of firearm. #2. Know the hardness of your lead bullet. The more I learn about this through experience, the less I think a hard bullet is bad IF #1 is followed. On the other hand, too soft of a bullet pushed too hard can be a nightmare, I know that for sure. I have yet to shoot my first swaged bullet. I cast and have no desire for them. I have cast some bullets that were 8bhn though and if they were pushed too hard, I had some real leading problems. Get the bullets up to 12bhn to 15bhn and it is much less probable that you will get any leading to 1300fps or so. For most of my pistol caliber rifles, 18bhn seems to work fine all the way up to 1800fps. Accuracy suffers above 1600fps but even at 1800fps I get virtually no leading.

Thank you for the responses.

In terms of bullet density, I found this to be helpful:
Preventing barrel leading | Revolvers, Reloading, Ammunition | GrantCunningham.com

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Reloading
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For reloading I have been using a Lyman single stage press with a Hornady 9mm 3 die set:
http://images.wholesalehunter.com/pr...stoldieset.jpg

- I loaded with 4.5 grains of Hodgdon Universal Powder
- Using generic 9mm 125gr RNL lead (what does the RNL stand for?)
- I bought the lead from Northeast Trading Co., Inc. - really good shop.
Northeast Trading Company- Quallity Firearms, Training, Gunsmith, Ammunition, Accessories

And doing the following things:

1) Using the first die to pop out the spent primer, as well as shape the casing. I am not sure that this single die actually sizes the casing or not, to tell you the truth. The directions that came with the Hornady die set were not very good.

2) Cleaning out the primer seating area on the casing the best I could.

3) Ever so slightly flaring the casing with the second die, and seating the new primer.

4) Taking a sample of powder from the hopper, weighing it (with an old non-digital scale, which seemed rather accurate, but maybe not?), and making sure I am getting the same amount of grains each time.

5) Once I confirmed that the powder was weighing out consistently (and continuing to do spot checks along the way), I took a casing one at a time, added powder, placed in lead, and then pressed it with the 3rd die, but without any crimping, or just the tiniest I could get.

6) Measure the bullets with a caliper and compared to some store bought rounds. I kept the overall length at 29mm, as per the reloading book's overall length suggestion for the 9mm (which is actually 29.65 or something close).

7) Rubbed the bullet down with a rag to get the case lube off, and then put them into a box for transport.

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Thoughts and reflections
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Obviously I screwed up there - either missing a round or two and not putting powder in, or screwing up the weight of the powder.

My next step is to buy a bullet puller (after clearing my barrel that is), salvage the rounds I made last time, and start over.

This time I am going to buy a loading tray (or make one) and break the process into more steps, so that I can check that the rounds all have powder in them before I move to the capping stage.

I am definitely going to try to find a digital scale that measures in GR.

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Questions - if you feel so inclined to help out this new shooter =)
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- How important is it to clean the case to before reloading (even if not to a shine), especially the primer seat portion?

I am thinking of buying a tumbler today. I didn't buy one last week because I have already sunk $100+ dollars into this reloading equipment (inherited the press). I was being cheap, and for safety's sake, I am thinking it might be time to cough up a bit more loot.

- Case length (without a seated bullet head)?

I measured the length of the casings with my calipers, but just at random as I went through the batch. They all seemed to be roughly the same size (but with auto-pistols things need to be more precise). Do the dies not shape the mouth of the casing? I have heard of a bullet sizer (mini lathe), but seems almost a novelty, and time consuming to do each round.

- The flaring/resizing/crimping of the casing?

I have been told that for 9mm there only needs be a very minimum flare, and even more minimum crimping, and that seems reasonable - just enough to get the bullet started into the case, and letting the bullet expand the casing a tiny bit - making it's own crimp? But what about the "resizing" of the casing? I was told there doesn't need to be much resizing of 9mm's. Even so, if there does need to be resizing, which die does that? I thought the first one took care of a lot of that?

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Ok, well that is a lot to go over, and I appreciate the time you are all taking to go through this with me. I am very weary of reloading now; last night was not fun! But I am confident that I can get it done right, with the proper guidance.

Thank You,
--EthanG

I haven't heard anyone ask or mention this, but approximately what velocity, if you don't have a chrono, best guess from a reloading manual are you shooting these boolits at? I try to keep mine (just the regular ones which typically use 92-6-2) at 950 fps or under. You maybe getting leading due to too hot of a load. Something to consider.

I just noticed you listed your load, on Hodgdon's webiste, I went to the load data and they have a load for the 125 Gr LCN, being between 3.8 @ 993 fps & 4.3 @ 1096. You're a little over that at 4.5 if I read your post correctly, so you're pushing that boolit too fast for what I'm guessing it was designed to be shot at. Try backing off to 3.6-3.8 gr and I think you won't see near the leading that you are seeing now. Now I could be wrong, but if I had to guess, this would be it.

RNL= Round Nose Lead
Balance beam scales are the most accurate of them all. Don't be concerned about how accurate it is. It is. If you have a digital scale go out of calibration, and I work with electronics so I know they can, how do you recalibrate them? You have to use known weights or compare them to another scale. What scale will most have as a second scale if they are using a digital? Right, an old mechanical scale.

Now, you can get a better scale than most that are out there. They are even older still! Do a search on a Texan Scale or a Hornaday Scale. The beams on them speak of quality, not like the popular ones out there today. Once set, you don't have to worry about them going out of calibration either. That is, unless you bounce them off of the floor once or twice.

I will be as honest as I can be, I have NEVER gotten my 9mm lead loads to not lead the barrel, never. Every other caliber, no problems. Not the 9mm. I even shot some that the maker said were guaranteed not to lead. He was sure that all of his experience was enough to make my gun shoot lead. Um, wrong, wrong, wrong!

Since I don't NEED to shoot the 9mm with lead bullets, I gave up and went to plated in it. All other calibers, lead and lead only in handguns, from 38spl to 45 Colt and a lot inbetween!

Ethan, first question is where did you get your loading data? I don't see anything off hand that gives a load for a lead 9mm bullet using Universal.

LRN, by the way means Lead Round Nose, and refers to the nose profile of the bullet.

Now some comments on your post.

If the sizing die is adjusted right, and your brass has been fired before, it should be resizing properly.

Crimping with auto rounds is a touchy subject. The case headspaces off the case mouth and so it must be taper crimped. However, you must make sure you are getting a good taper crimp applied or it may cause the bullets to be pushed further into the case from recoil in the magazine or forced out further by inertia when chambered. One will cause excessive pressures and the other may not give you enough pressure.

The 29.65mm cartridge overall length is a maximum for the 9mm and may not be what you need for your specific bullet. The 29mm length might be alright, but it will depend on your bullet. Doesn't your manual give you inch measurements?

I usually wipe any resizing lube off as soon as the cases are resized. It's a lot less messy that way.

Your old scale is probably OK, make sure you have some check weights to calibrate it accurately. There is nothing wrong with the technique of adding powder and immediately seating the bullet as it is more positive. You do have to make sure you are dropping the proper amount of powder this way, which is a long discussion, but it sounds as though you weighed each one as you dropped it. A loading tray is still a good thing to have.

As to your questions:
I like to keep my cases clean personally, especially in auto cases. It helps keep things working smooth and clean. I also clean all my primer pockets, except for the very few rare times when I use a progressive. Doing so will help prevent misfires.

Max. case length for a 9mm Luger is 19.15mm or .754". The suggested "trim to" length is 19.00mm or .744"

No, the sizing dies do not alter the length of the case, for the sake of this discussion anyway. Case length is very important with auto rounds that headspace on the case mouth. As long as they are within the 19.00-19.15mm, (.744" to .754") range, you are alright. Longer than that and you are risking an excessive headspace situation, which can be hazardous to both you and your gun, while too short can cause failures to fire. Some guns will still shoot with short headspaced rounds but this will put an undo amount of strain on your extractor. Handgun ammo will not usually grow too long, but you should keep an eye on it. Many people prefer to toss it rather than have to trim it, it all depends on how cheap, (or is that thrifty?) you are, and how easy it is to find brass in your caliber.

The sizing die will handle the sizing as long as it's adjusted right. You will want to size fired brass to make sure it works properly when reloaded. You do need to add a good taper crimp too, I don't know why anyone would say anything different. This may apply to some rifle shooters, but auto handguns are a different story.

Good luck.

Smith Crazy, I get marginal leading with my 9 mm. But it was so light that it was cleaned off with regular cleaning, no special tornado brushes or lewis lead removal kits needed. And I shot several hundred rounds through it as well. This is with regular Missouri Bullet Company .356 125 gr LCRN boolits. But I also keep them right at 1000 fps, I thought it was 950, but after looking at my chrono data, I guess I do shoot them at 1000 fps.

Thanks all,

I am ordering some more cleaning equipment now, and will keep an eye on case length and recalibrate my powder load.

Jellybean, I'm still unsure which die out of the three is the "resizing die." I'm would think it is the first one, which pops out the primer? The second die seems to the "flaring" die? I only put the casing up into that die a very small way - 1/4 inch, most likely less - to get the lead to sit properly while putting it into the 3rd die.

The 3rd die being the on that will push the bullet down into the casing and crimp the casing. The instructions that came with the dies, as sparse as they were, said it could crimp if needed, but I put the lightest crimp I could on it.

I am getting mixed instructions from different people on forms as to crimping 9mm's

Crimping 9MM Luger Cases for Reloading; 9mm Parabellum Crimp

Someone, hold my hand please! haha. I feel so lost, and it's keeping me from shooting, which is what it's all about!

Another question..... (not lacking in those, haha).

In regards to the rounds that I am going to have to redo:

A) Can I pop out live primers (safely), and reuse them?

B) If not, should I trust the cleaning job that I did, reuse the case and primer, and make sure to do a better job next time?

Wow, a website that takes assorted, biased opinions and makes them seem legitimate. I won't say anymore because they might have quoted me somewhere, but I wouldn't bet my life on their information.

The sizing die would be the one that deprimes too. Look in the botom of the die and check to see if it has a gold or brass toned ring at the bottom edge.

Just put enough flare to start the bullet with the second die.

Go to your link and look at the pictures of the sample bullets, the two factory and the handloaded one. The two factory bullets are the way they should be, there was a good taper crimp on the case and you can see where the mouth of the case made a ring around the bullet. The handloaded round appears to have been roll crimped, which some standard dies will do if adjusted to do so while others can't do it at all. You want to add some crimp to it, neck tension isn't enough. You won't be able to see it as it's not a roll crimp, you need the lip of the case mouth for headspacing so make sure there is a definate edge there. If you are having a hard time getting the idea there was a good post by one person that said to measure the case mouth before you crimp, then carefully adjust your die to make the case mouth about .002" smaller.

If you sized the brass right the first time, as in there were no problems to feed, you shouldn't need to remove the primers or size again. Pull the bullets, dump the powder and refill to what you want then seat a new bullet.

Yes, the first die is the resizing/decapping die. What you have said about the flaring die has me concerned though. You need to adjust the die so you get the desired amount of flare with a full pull of the press handle. You will not be precise enough by guessing, and too much or too little flare is hard on the brass.

I was wondering about that flare die. I've never use Hornady dies and looking at their catalog it looks like the flare die isn't very adjustable.

Nope, it seems to be a solid rod inside the die, which flares out the casing. Again, I have only been putting the minimal flare on, and, from what I can tell, the minimum crimp.

In regards to the sizing of the casing after the crimp, within the .002 tolerance, are we talking about the top of the casing which hugs the bullet, and having it the same diameter as stated in the loading manual (mine being a Lyman manual), which would also be the same size of the casing after it went through die #1 - the resizing die, right?

In regards to case lube, I have been rolling them in a grease pad, but should I also swab some lube inside of the casings? My dies aren't that special non-stick metal (forgot the name).

Here is are the directions I have been working off of for this die set:
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR...w_dim_dies.pdf

I will take some photos of the bullets/casings in question when I go over my Dad's for Corn Beef tonight.

The dimensional drawing in the Lyman manual gives you the industry maximum dimensions for that cartridge. Your actual measurements may be different than those, but should not be greater than they are, in most circumstances.

The .002 reference is for your cases and does not refer to the manuals. After you have seated a bullet measure the case mouth, the part that holds the bullet, just behind the edge. Say for instance you get a reading of .376". Then you would adjust your seat/crimp die according to your instructions for 'seating with a crimp' and carefully move the die down until the case measures .374". Again, your actual measurements may vary depending on the sizing die dimensions and the actual size of your bullet.

The directions aren't all that bad, but I can see where they can mess up a new reloader. They are generic for both rifle and pistol die sets and can get a little confusing. In fact they are a little confusing to me since they are different than other brands that I use.

Many of the other brands use "carbide" rings for their no-lube dies. According to Hornadys website they are using titanium nitride instead, which is found on those golden drill bits, for their dies. Your directions tells you not to use lube with these as it may ruin the powder if it gets inside the cases. Do not put any lube inside your cases, that is only for rifle loading. Rifle dies have an expander button that expands the neck on the way back out, revolver have the third die and they operate on a different system.

JB, thank you for all the sound advice.

I am looking forward to my next reloading session; sometime next week after my materials are delivered.

One or two more question (I'm sure not the last).

The Hornady directions state:
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR...w_dim_dies.pdf
They say lube for rifles, but it seems to suggest NOT lubing for hand guns?
I have been using Hornady Unique Case Lube on a rolling pad to coat the shells before sending them through the press.

I put some lube on the resizer die, because I thought it would help the process, and that the lube wouldn't foul the powder (I read that it doesn't, but now that I think about it, I don't see that written anywhere on the lube container). Does Hornady Unique Case Lube fowl the powder?

Also, if you look at the picture of the expanding die, it has the expander rod almost half way into the casing, which seems very misleading from what the directions say and from what others have told me...just sayin'.

Second question. What's up with this lead (see images)? So, most of the lead I have seen don't have any indentations on the sides or anything (mostly jacketed), but the ones I bought have the green ring, which I believe is a lube ring to get the bullet into the casing. Yet, it seems the bullet itself has lube on it and is a little slippery. Should I wipe the whole bullet down before firing it, or does that lube on the lead help it travel done the barrel?




Here is a pic of one of the rounds I made the other day; not a great quality image and doesn't say much for the round, but here it is none the less:

Ethan, if your dies are titanium nitride coated (TiN) they shouldn't need lubed. Even if you do need to use lube you only need a light coating on the brass, don't gob it on and don't add extra to your dies. I've never use their Unique lube, but you don't want to get any of it in your powder if you can help it because it can affect the powders burning rate, if not stop it all together.

Their flaring die is different all the others that I've seen. You can't really go by the picture because it may not be your caliber in the image and may look different than what you are seeing. Put an empty case in the shell holder and raise it all the way to the top. Install the expander die and turn it down until it hits the case, then lower the case and turn the die down about 1/4 turn and check the case with a bullet you are using. Repeat this until the base of the bullet just fits inside the case then set the lock ring.

There is a big difference between lead and jacketed bullets. The green ring in your bullets is bullet lube, which lead bullets require but jacketed don't. Leave it in there because you need it.

The picture of the loaded round isn't very clear, but it looks like they are loaded too long. Those bullets should be seated with the case mouth sitting right about at the shoulder. ( the point where it goes from the largest diameter to a narrower one) Seating them too long can cause a headspace problem, especially if they are soft. Once you determine how long they are seated correctly, you then look at the data you are using to see how it compares to the cartridge overall length with the bullet they used for testing and make any adjustments needed.

Will do. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks!

1. Lead may produce higher pressure in a given load, check primers for signs of high pressure, bullet impact may be higher on your target.
2. Range lead is usually about 6 brn, and usually will lead above 850 fps.
3. Check your target for rounds impacting sideways indicating excessive leading. Shoot more clean less!

Ok.... I'm reading through the 45th Edition Lyman RELOADING HANDBOOK.

I have read through the "Reloading 101" section and they mention something about cast bullets:

I have never heard mention of this else where, and it seems a bit over kill?


Also, to 'answer' the question for crimping:
Does this sound right?

Not really overkill, it's true that changes in components, equipment and enviornment will affect pressures. That is why we start at the starting loads and work our way up to a safe limit. Some reloading manuals are just better than others as it's good to have too much information instead of not enough.

The crimp information sounds right...if they are talking about roll crimping. Taper crimps do not shorten the case and are what you should use for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth. I don't have Lyman #45, but I do have every one after that, is there a paragraph or two about the 9mm at the start of the data? It should tell you about trimming and crimping for the 9mm there.