Accuracy ? Ruger 77/44

[Teasel]

Hello Guys.I am new to this site. I did at one time own a couple of Smiths. A model 19 and a model 66 but I had to get rid of them both after the hand gun ban ( in Britain). At the moment we still allowed rifles as long as they are not semi autoes. Which leads me to the reason for this communication. I own a Ruger 77/44 and I am having problems with accuracy. I am only shootng cast bullets with light loads. 6 grains of Red Dot with a 240 grain bullet. This only produced 2 inch groups at 25 yards. I have tried ,today infact, using a 250 grain bullet with gas checks and 9 grains of Unique. The group was reduced to about 1 and half inchs without any flyers. I forgot to mention that I was getting the odd flyer with the previous load.This load using Unique does seem to be possibly, the way forward.I would have thought that I should be getting almost one hole goups at 25 yards. Can anyone suggest a sollution.

Regards Ian Appleyard (Teasel)

[Skip Sackett]

Ian,
Though an ocean separate us, we seem to be on the same quest!

I recently purchased a Ruger M77/44 in hopes of producing decent rifle accuracy with cast bullets as well. The Elmer Keith bullet to be exact. I cast and cast like crazy to be honest! I would almost rather do that than anything else concerning firearms, almost.

My Marlin 1894 rifles have had fair accuracy, 2" groups at 50 yards is about the best I can do with lead plain based bullets. I wanted better and never got there. I didn't use gas checks and have heard that I could have improved accuracy had I used them. Maybe with the Ruger, I will have to go that route too, hope not.

I must say that my loads for the Marlin rifles were clocking out of the 20" barrel at 1800fps and most claim that lead bullet accuracy diminishes greatly at anything over 1600fps.

Back to the Ruger: I have been working so much that I haven't had time to get to the range as I would have liked to but I have run several loads through it. One showed great possibilities. It is with HS-6 powder. I had to call Hodgdon for it though as there was no data anywhere for the combination I had chosen. (I had some made up with the weight of powder that the technician suggested even before I called though, took an educated guess! )

The load he suggested was 14.0gr of HS-6 under that Elmer bullet. I have only shot it inside at ranges under 25yards but, from a rest, I have gotten one hole groups with it, Like a leaf of clover.

The reason I bought the Ruger is because of the faster twist of the barrel, 1:20". The Marlin and other rifles have a 1:38". The faster twist SHOULD lend itself better to heavier bullets, 280gr and up. The only problem with them is that you may have problems getting them into the magazine. My Elmer's don't fit either but, I want accuracy above all. As cast, they are running in the 260gr area too, so maybe.

Hopefully, the weather will break and I can get outside, right now there is snow, snow and rain! Even though mine is the stainless version, I have no desire to shoot for an extended period of time in inclement weather! Spoiled I guess!

We will have to keep in contact as we work through this together a world apart! Ever think about immigrating? I wouldn't live in a state that didn't allow me the right to have a handgun, let alone a country!

p.s. Welcome to the forum too!

[anomad]

I'm interested in the bolt action 44's. I have a Marlin 1894 set up with williams receiver site that I really enjoy. But it doesn't like to feed Keith style bullets. Skip, where's the feed problem with the bolt gun? I have never patterned the rifle carefully, just enough to know I can obtain "minute of deer" at 50 yards.

Ian are you using a scope? One odd flier sounds like something might not be locked down tight?

For lighter loads I generally get better accuracy with a lighter projectile.

[Jellybean]

For lighter loads I generally get better accuracy with a lighter projectile.

My first thought when I read Teasel's post was that the rate of twist might not be suitable for slow velocitiy loads. Lighter bullets might be the way to go. Also, the slower burning rate of the Unique compared to the Red Dot can make a difference in a longer barrel and give more consistent results as compared to a handgun.

anomad, Lever guns are made to feed cartridges of a certain length and extra long bullets, or extra short brass, won't always work through their actions. If this is the case with the Keith bullets you might be able to either seat the bullet deeper, or trim the brass back a little shorter to get a standard OAL lenght for the cartridge you are using to make it work. BUT MAKE SURE YOU ADJUST YOUR LOAD IF YOU GO TO A SHORTER OAL!

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Teasel

I own a Ruger 77/44 and I am having problems with accuracy. I am only shootng cast bullets with light loads. 6 grains of Red Dot with a 240 grain bullet.

The owners manual that came with my 77/44 recommends against the use of light to moderate loads using lead bullets because of accuracy problems. Don't know if it's the bore diameter or the rifling. Using jacketed bullets and legitimate .44 magnum velocities, I have been pleased with the accuracy considering it's a handgun caliber carbine.

[Teasel]

Guys,thanks for the feedback.In reply to Smith Crazy , yes I have thought about emigrating to the USA . It must great to be able to walk into a gun shop and buy a hand gun. You enjoy far more freedom than we do here. It was a black day when we had to hand in our guns. I have to say though that the government did pay us quite a lot of money for our guns.
That load you mentioned , 14-0 gr of HS-6 , I will try it if I can get that powder. May be, it will shoot more accurately with a higher vellocity.With my first loading it was only doing about 850 Ft per Sec
and the second load was producing aboout 900 to 950 which did produce a tighter group.Not much but it seemed to be getting there.In the mean time I will load some more with Unique to produce a vellocity (refering to the Lyman manual as a guide) and see what happens.
The weather over here has been bad too. Could not get to the range for at least two months over Christmas because of the snow. Needed a 4 wheel drive to get down all the back roads. Even then it may have been too bad.
Anyway I'll load some faster loads tomorrow and try em out on Wedensday. I''ll let you know what happens.
Nomad-, Yes I do use a scope and yes the back scope ring had come loose. So at that moment it did cause some of the flyers. I actually removed the scope and shot with open iron sights. To no avail.Still got flyers. Anyway this Saturday I put the scope back on .Made sure it was secure and did not get any flyers.
And Jellybean-, I think you may be right , a higher velocity could be the answer.
Anyway Guys, got to go.Let you know what happens.
Ian (Teasel)

[Teasel]

Just read buck460XVR letter, about what the Ruger manual said about low velocity ammo. Just got the manual out and yes he is right. It says don't use low velocity ammo.Its not accurate. The moral of the story is- read the instruction book properly. Which obviously I did'nt.
Let you know what happens.
Ian(Teasel)

[chingachkook]

Years ago I used to own a Ruger 77/22 Hornet and with the best handloads I could muster 5 shot groups at 100 yds. hovered right around 1" with occasional unexplained flyers.

Because of previous experience with the 22 Hornet round I knew the little cartridge was capable of better accuracy. I tried every trick I could think of to tighten my groups up, but nothing seemed to help and in frustration I started searching the Internet for some kind of clues. Eventually I stumbled onto a web site that said that the accuracy problems with the 77/22 action lies in the sloppy fit of the two halves of the two piece bolt. I don't remember the exact cure because it was so long ago, but it seems that the site suggested a shim between the two halves and an oversize roll pin to replace the original one that holds the halves together. I carefully did the work as required and removed the slop from the bolt halves. On my next trip to the range to test the repair out the rifle shot five shot groups of 5/8" with no flyers at 100 yds. from a bench rest.

I don't remember the exact load I used, but it was with Lil' Gun powder and one of those then new on the market plastic tipped bullets around 40-45 grs.

I don't own the rifle anymore cause about ten years ago some young feller made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

I don't know if the 77/44 has a two piece bolt or not, but if it does a search of the Internet may give you the information for the repair as I describe and may help you tighten your groups up.

[chingachkook]

I've been searching for a few hours to find the site I spoke of in my previous post, but no joy so far. However, I did find this;

Ruger Bolt

[336A]

Hello Smith Crazy, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the ability of your Marlin to shoot heavy bullets accurately. I'm not sure if you tried any of the heavier bullets or not out of your rifle. There are some good resources out there like this article by Glen Fryxell (hope I spelled his name right) that show the contrary to be true. However I do realize that no two rifles will like the same kind of ammo either, plus it is always nice to have a good excuse to buy a new rifle LOL.
Marlin 1894 Lever Action Carbine, It's uses, calibers, history

44 Magnum heavy weight hunting bullets - Is the 44 becoming overweight?

As soon as time permits I would very much like to play with some 250gr WFN bullets from Beartooth Bullets from my Marlin .44 1894SS.

[Skip Sackett]

Mould coming very, very soon! Cannot wait! WHOOOHOOOOO!

[Teasel]

Thanks for the pics Chingachkook, Ref. bolt. I'll keep it in mind.
Ian (Teasel)

[Teasel]

Chingachkook, thanks for the photoes.Ref bolt. I'll keep them in mind.
Ian (teasel)

[chingachkook]

Originally Posted by Teasel

Chingachkook, thanks for the photoes.Ref bolt. I'll keep them in mind.
Ian (teasel)

Teasel,

Afternoon Sir!

Just remember if you should make the repair yourself to grease the shim really well with a good quality firearms grease that way you'll prevent any galling of the shim.

[Teasel]

To Chingachkook, thanks. I will.
Regards Teasel

[chingachkook]

Hey Teasel,

Good morning!

I found a little more information on the bolt repair and hope it helps you out some.

Ruger 22 H

Make the 77/22 Shoot

I still haven't been able to locate the site I found years ago that described the repair in much more detail, complete with line drawings and all.

[Teasel]

To Smith crazy, got to the range on wedensday. Intermittant rain, high gusting wind and dambed cold. Not the best conditions for testing loads. Anyway I did get some good results. I used 11 grains of Unique behind a 250 grain bullet (gas check) Estimated velocity was arround 1000 ft per sec. and the group has shrunk to about 3/4 of an inch. Not quite a clover leaf as you are getting but I think its on its way. I will try maximum of 12 grains next of Unique, mainly because thats all I have. It should in theory shoot tighter.I will try and get hold of some of that HS-6 . I am not sure whether its available over here but I will find out. Once I have the general accuracy nailed down I want to try bullets without gas checks as they are so expensive.The price of copper has just gone up and up. By the way, what make of bullet moulds are you using?
Ian(Teasel)

[Teasel]

Hi Chingachkook, got your info. diagrams etc , thankyou.
Teasel.

[chingachkook]

You are welcome Sir.

[Teasel]

Hi Smithcrazy, here is a pic of a five shot group produced by 11 Grains of Unique.
Ian (Teasel)

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by Teasel

Hi Smithcrazy, here is a pic of a five shot group produced by 11 Grains of Unique.
Ian (Teasel)

Very nice, Ian, very nice.

I think you were asking about my moulds. I have had several for 44 caliber. One was a 209gr LSWC from Lee. That 6 gang mould could really put the bullets out. Then I got the H&G #503 that I gave over $200 for. Sold it a year later and made money!

After that I went to two different moulds, one was another Lee. The 210gr LRNFP cowboy bullet. That one shoots pretty well from the Marlins.

Now, I have two Mihec copies of the H&G #503. They are bigger in diameter than the H&G which suits the Marlins better too. My M629 Classic has no clue that they are bigger!

Then I have a new mould on order too. It is a Mihec mould too. It is a RNFP in 295gr in solid form and 265gr in round HP version. Single grease groove. The HP is absolutely a cavern!

I am working like a DOG right now and haven't the time to work through this with the Ruger. In the near future though...........

[Skip Sackett]

Got a break from work today and got a gift (had to pay for it) in the mail, so I thought I would put the gift to work right away.

The gift was a mould I had ordered a while back from mp-molds.com, Miha from Slovania. The mould is called a 434640 HP. It came with both round pins and some special pentagonal pins that are his special creation. If you think that things with 5 sides cannot fly straight, don't try to recover a bullet that you shot from your Smith revolver. (5 lands and grooves )

So, here is a dummy round picture:

This one shows the deep cavernous hollow point. It is actually so deep in the bullet that it extends inside past the crimp groove!

This bullet is nice because it will fit in the magazine of the M77/44 when crimped in the groove, something the H&G #503 will not do. Both bullets (boolits) have the same seating depth but with the rounder nose it is a tad bit shorter. The bearing surface is a bit longer for this same reason. I think that will be a win/win for this caliber and rifle combination.

The mould did need to be pretty hot as well as the alloy. It needs a bit more tin that I am used to putting in an alloy to fill out but, it turned out some really good bullets in a hurry.

So, just one more picture and then, I will have to do some load development.



Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, in this configuration, this weighs just what the H&G #503 does! In the solid "mode" it is about 295gr.

At any rate, thought this would be a neat bullet to work up loads for too.

[Teasel]

Hello Smithcrazy, that bullet looks interesting.Where did you say you got the mould from, Slovania ? are you talking about somewhere in Europe?

I have moulds in various calibres all of them made by Lee.At the moment I am buying bullets as my Lee Production Pot has a blocked spout. When I get time I will dismantle it and try and fix it.

By the way what do you do for a job? You seem to put in a lot of hours.
Ian(Teasel)

[Skip Sackett]

Originally Posted by Teasel

Hello Smithcrazy, that bullet looks interesting.Where did you say you got the mould from, Slovania ? are you talking about somewhere in Europe?

I have moulds in various calibres all of them made by Lee.At the moment I am buying bullets as my Lee Production Pot has a blocked spout. When I get time I will dismantle it and try and fix it.

By the way what do you do for a job? You seem to put in a lot of hours.
Ian(Teasel)

Hi Ian,
Yes, the moulds come from a man named Miha and he is making them in Slovania in Europe. He has a web site, mp-molds.com

Go and check him out. Over on castboolits.gunloads.com, in the "Group Buy" section, you can find many styles and configurations that he is currently making or going to make.

Lee 6 cavity moulds are great in their "flat nose" or SWC profiles. I have had some problems with their RN versions especially the "1R" variety.

As for this bullet (boolit to us yank casters ), I just got my mould Saturday and went right to work with it! It casts like a dream and the boolits, OH MAN, the BOOLITS! They are simply beautiful and the round hollow point pin makes some awesome cavities! WOWSERS!

I took some to the range tonight to run them through the rifle and the Classic. All in all I was pretty pleased. In the configuration in the picture, they weight right at 250gr but their bearing surface is much longer than the H&G #503.

I'll tell you what though, I was pleasantly surprised tonight. I loaded some of the H&G #503 to a bit higher velocity than before and they seemed to shoot better out of the rifle. The boolits pictured above, did OK but not superb.

The H&G #503 shot great out of the handgun and so did the 434640 (profile above). I must admit though, there is a bit of leading in the handgun so, I may have to work on the alloy a bit for this velocity!

As to the type of job I have; I am an "Electronic Machine Automation Specialist". That is a fancy title for a guy that does system integration for machinery. I design, build, install, program and configure every aspect of specialized machine controls. Mostly PLC (Progammable Logic Controllers) but I have some PC controls that I designed running in the field too. Variable Frequency Drives for AC motors, DC Drives and Fanuc robotics also. I troubleshoot all manner of machine controls on manufactured machinery, such as CNC and process controls such as paint lines, roll former lines and metal working machines too.

All in all, I stay super busy. For a time I was working as an Electrical Controls Engineer at a local manufacturing firm but, they wanted me to work a ton of hours and be on salary based on 40 hours! I had promised them I would stay 1 year and made it 11 1/2 months. When the boss freaked out because I wanted to go home a half hour early the day after I worked 14 hours, I said; "That's enough!" and gave my 2 weeks notice the next day.

The problem in my field that I notice is that there are no younger folks coming down the pike to take my place! I spoke with a Chinese man that emigrated to Japan and then to Canada and he said that he saw the same thing all across the world! So, either I will have to wait until I am 90 to retire OR there is going to be a fairly big hole (and not just because of my 6'2", 270lb frame either) when I am gone or someone will have to start filling those gaps now!

Thanks for the interest. Hope I didn't bore you!

[Teasel]

Hi Smithcrazy, had a look at mp molds.com Wow, those moulds look very nice. I may get one myself.

I tried 11.9 grains of Unique behind a 250 grain gas checked bullet and the group is getting smaller with increased velocity. And also no sign of those occational flyers that I used to get.

Found a source of HS-6 powder so I will try your load of 14.0 grains of the same.

I am a retired Technical Illustrator. I do a lot of painting and occasional art jobs for my agent.
You may want to checkout my website [url=http://www.ianappleyard.co.uk
Ian(teasel)
If that does'nt work just go in to Google search and put in ian appleyard artist.

[Skip Sackett]

Ian,
I'm about as "artsy" as an orangutan! Most primates can paint or draw better than I can! Never could get it from my mind to paper! The link worked and your stuff looks really cool. Congrats!

I have two of Miha's moulds that I am working with for this rifle. One is the old standby of Elmer Keith's 250gr LSWC copied from an H&G #503 (THE 44Mag BULLET) mould, the other bullet is the 434640.

The latter has much more bearing surface that should translate into more accuracy because of how it grips the rifling. I haven't been able to prove out any of my loads with HS-6 yet so, hold off buying some. Lots of things going on here with work and family and all. Hopefully next week I will be able to get to the range.

I did cast up a bunch of those 434640 bullets a little harder than I usually cast them last night. I used 20% Linotype to 80% wheel weights and water quenched them right out of the mould. I would imagine that that may make the hollow point too brittle to be good on larger game at rifle velocities but, I am going to push these really hard and see what I get.

In all honesty, these are the best moulds I have ever used. Listen, I have some original H&G moulds, so that is saying a lot. The bullets seem to FLY out of them and if you use a decent amount of tin in your alloy, they fill out wonderfully. Some of the sharpest corners I have ever seen on cast bullets, seriously.

The next loads will be with either H110/W296, 2400 or Lil' Gun. Cannot make up my mind yet. Living in the States poses all kinds of problems, too many choices might just be one of them! (Just kidding around!)

Glad to hear that your loads are doing better. Keep us apprised of how things progress!

[Teasel]

Hi Smith crazy, one of the main problems with boolit casting over here is that linotype is so difficult to get hold of and wheel weights are often made frome something other than lead.
Ian(Teasel)

[Skip Sackett]

Ian,
Just another reason to emigrate!

All kidding aside, ebay has lead, mostly wheel weights, and Linotype can be purchased other places online.

Old pipes, there should be plenty of them around. Over here they were all made out of lead at one time. What about the scrap yards? Are there any that recycle metals over there?

Check out Rotometals online. They have whatever you want. Not sure about shipping across the pond though.

[Teasel]

Hi Smithcrazy, yes , have plenty of lead, just need the hardner.. yes you are right there must be some where on line where I can get linotype. I will try that link you sent me. Actually I do have a dwindling ammount in my shed but it won't last much longer.
Ian (Teasel

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Teasel

Hi Smithcrazy, yes , have plenty of lead, just need the hardner.. yes you are right there must be some where on line where I can get linotype. I will try that link you sent me. Actually I do have a dwindling ammount in my shed but it won't last much longer.
Ian (Teasel

I have a friend that uses 95/5 solder to increase the hardness that you can find at most hardware or plumbing supply stores. Don't know how he determines how much, but he shoots a lot of lead. He has given me some of his bullets to shoot and they shoot well. He's been trying to get me started into casting my own also, but I don't have the space nor the time right now.

[Teasel]

Yes I could try solder.
Ian(Teasel)

[Teasel]

Hi Smithcrazy,finally settled on 11.5 grains of Unique, at least until I can try some HS-6 or maybe 2400. See attached photo.
Ian(Teasel)