Hodgdon Universal Powder: Suggested 9mm GR. Load.

[EthanG-M&P]

I am using Hodgdon Universal Powder (Clay's Technology), and did a batch of reloads that blew up in my face last week (Caused a squib - most likely missed a case with powder).

I looked in my Lyman 45th Edition reloading manual, (yes, it is old, yes, I need to buy a new one?) and there were no suggestions for 125gr LRN, or Hodgdon Universal powder.

So, I used the load weight off of the powder container, and made a mistake in not noticing that the formula was not meant for my round. I have since scrapped that batch of rounds.

But, after looking in several other loading recources, including the Hodgdon Basic Reloaders Manual 2003, I couldn't find a load that corresponded to my lead.

Then I remembered how much I love the internet, and went to Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com to check to see if they listed a load for my lead, and it seems that they do.

Long story short, how does this sound?
I'm using 125gr RN CL (Round Nose Cast Lead) .356"

The bullet data off of Hodgdon website states I should use this as a starting load:
Bullet Weight: 125 GR. LCN
Powder: Hodgdon Universal
Bullet Diam.: .356"
C.O.L.: 1.125"
Grs.: 3.8

That all sounds right as rain, and I think the bullet they are referring to closely matches mine, but what does LCN stand for? Are these two bullets similar enough to share this load? If not, does anyone have any other tested and proven loads?

All and any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
--EthanG

[Ceapea]

Just guessing here, but I THINK that it may be a lead truncated cone, type of bullet.
Ah, I Googled it...lead conical nose, AKA truncated cone.
Your LRN bullets should work fine. But since they are not the same, start out at the lower end charges and work up. Also, start with the longer OAL and work shorter if needed.

[robctwo]

I shoot a lot of lrn with Universal. 3.8 to 4.3. The conical or turncated will have a shorter overall length than the round nose, don't load round nose to the same OAL.

[EthanG-M&P]

I'm using the Lead Round Nose. I also have some store bought FML's and coated Flat Nose-wad cutters.

What should I measure out the Lead Round Noses to be for their OAL? Should it be comparable to the FMJ rounds?

Here is the bullet in question:
http://www.ethang.net/_websites/_random/lead.jpg

[Forrest r]

I’m using a lee 125gr rn lead bullet for my 9mm & universal powder. It’s a load on the light side but it functions extremely well in my 1911 & is highly accurate. The load is 4.0gr of universal clays powder pushing the lee 125gr round nosed bullet.

Here’s a pick of the bullet, a loaded bullet with the OAL & the lee catalog with the bullet mold I use circled. The data you have listed from the Hodgdon sight is correct.


If you take a close look at my not so perfect pic that I posted, you’ll see where the bullet that I cast & sized has straight sides, and then tapers into the nose of the bullet. A good rule when reloading pistol bullets & have never used that bullet before is to seat the bullets to be able to use a crimp groove or cannelure of a bullet when they have one. Or up to the edge of the straight wall of a bullet when you’re not sure about the seating depth of a bullet designed for semi-autos.

That’s what I did when I first loaded this lee bullet & had no data to go by for the OAL; I seated them to the edge of the straight sides of the cast bullet. After getting the first bullet set in the case where I wanted it I tried it in the 1911’s bbl to make sure it would fit. Everything looked good so I loaded up 20 rounds & took them to the range to test the pistol for feed & function. The pistol did extremely well so I’ve never changed the seating die for this bullet. As it turned out the OAL is 1.125”

Good luck, be safe & enjoy

[EthanG-M&P]

Forrest,

Thank you kindly! I want to find the right load/OAL and everything else, and just be set up. I have been going at this almost 24/7 for the last two weeks. Haven't been sleeping well, haha. The information you provided will surely help me rest easier.

I am expecting the materials I ordered to come in tomorrow, and hopefully make some test rounds tomorrow night.

I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks again!

[EthanG-M&P]

One thing, Forrest.

What is the length of just the lead bullet (there is glare over the picture)? The Lee that you are using seems to be just a tad longer than what I have (my tools are all at my dad's house, so I can't provide the actual length right now).



Horrible picture, but just for rough illustration. I didn't seat the bullet all the way to the end of the flat section, which I plan on doing with this next batch of reloads, but still, I think the lead I am using is a little shorter than the Lee. It is strange too, the flat section of the lead flares out to fit the shell, but the nose of the lead has a lip and slims out, to be smaller than the flat rear of the bullet; it makes it look funny when fully loaded (much like the lead the .164 lead in your photo). If so, should I compensate for this in some way, either powder/and or OAL?

Bullet lip:


Flare question
Also, I have found that with almost every shell I loaded, I didn't shave off any lead (some did), but did however find some of the lube ring scratched out and appearing where the case ends. Was my initial flare too small, and didn't allow for the proper seating of the bullet, or is this normal and to be expected.


Again, I know I am over analyzing this, but since I had squibs and stove pipe issues with my last batch, I am making 99% sure that I get it right this time.

Thanks again, all.

[Forrest r]

No that's not normal for the flare to scratch out any lube or shave lead. You want the flare big enough so that you can comfortably set a bullet into the case & have it stay there on its own. You don’t want to have to force the bullet into the flared case. But at the same time you don’t want to have the bullet flop around in the flared case either. You can tell when you have too much flare on a case by looking at the bullet after you set it in the flared case (before you do the final step of seating the bullet & crimping it). The bullet shouldn’t be able to tilt/move around in the flare & when you look at the bullet/case flare relationship. There should be no major gaps between the bullet & the flared case.

The bullet in your picture looks like it has a crimp groove in it above the lube groove. My bullet does not have any groove for crimping, just a lube groove. The OAL of the bullet I’m using is .575”, that’s from the bottom of the cast bullet to the tip of the cast bullet. The OAL of the straight sides of the lead bullet that I use is .230”. That measurement is from the bottom of the bullet to the end of the straight sides of the bullet where the flat sides meets the start of the curved sides for the round nosed shape.

So basically the bullet that I’m using has an OAL of .575” & I’m seating .230” of the bullet into the case. I hope this helps.

[EthanG-M&P]

Originally Posted by Forrest r

No that's not normal for the flare to scratch out any lube or shave lead. You want the flare big enough so that you can comfortably set a bullet into the case & have it stay there on its own. You don’t want to have to force the bullet into the flared case. But at the same time you don’t want to have the bullet flop around in the flared case either. You can tell when you have too much flare on a case by looking at the bullet after you set it in the flared case (before you do the final step of seating the bullet & crimping it). The bullet shouldn’t be able to tilt/move around in the flare & when you look at the bullet/case flare relationship. There should be no major gaps between the bullet & the flared case.

The bullet in your picture looks like it has a crimp groove in it above the lube groove. My bullet does not have any groove for crimping, just a lube groove. The OAL of the bullet I’m using is .575”, that’s from the bottom of the cast bullet to the tip of the cast bullet. The OAL of the straight sides of the lead bullet that I use is .230”. That measurement is from the bottom of the bullet to the end of the straight sides of the bullet where the flat sides meets the start of the curved sides for the round nosed shape.

So basically the bullet that I’m using has an OAL of .575” & I’m seating .230” of the bullet into the case. I hope this helps.

Yes, it helps tremendously, thank you!

I was at the understanding that I should only flare the case just enough for the bullet to rest inside of the case, say a 1/10 of the way, just so that it stays straight during the final stage of the process.

After the flare (if done correctly) should the lead seat almost entirely down into position, but not fall all the way to the bottom (or on top of the powder)? Or, should it still sit, roughly, almost entirely out of the brass?

I need to get this right not only for myself, but also so that my father doesn't end up ruining his .38's. If you think my last attempt was bad, you should see the .38 he showed me the other night, haha; it looked dangerous (not so funny). He has lost his touch since not reloading for 30+ years.

Thanks again.

[EthanG-M&P]

So, I made a batch of 20 bullets the other night, using 4gr's and an COAL of 1.25"

They cycled and shot fine, but the powder smoked like crazy, and fouled the gun up a bit. Nothing a little cleaning couldn't fix, but I am going to get some smokeless powder next time.

I don't know if it was the powder/weight or me and my trigger, but I couldn't shoot straight to save my life. While aiming at upper neck/head of the silhouette, almost all my rounds were sinking bottom left.

Also, does anyone see signs of "tumbling" in this image? I should a few store bought flat nose lead bullets to see how they would compare, and they made a much smaller and cleaner hole (but that's their job). The round nose lead that I reloaded seems to be either punching right through, or tumbling in the air, to create this larger hole.

[kingranch]

LCN = Lead Conical Nose

...the powder smoked like crazy, and fouled the gun up a bit...I am going to get some smokeless powder next time.

I sure hope that you weren't using Black Powder in 9mm case!
Just kidding...most likely it was the bullet lube...not powder.

[Chuck Jones]

ethan try shooting some cardboard or paper plates and check the hole shape then. it's kinda hard to tell with round nose bullets on paper

/c

[EthanG-M&P]

Originally Posted by kingranch

I sure hope that you weren't using Black Powder in 9mm case!
Just kidding...most likely it was the bullet lube...not powder.

Haha, I used what the sales clerk at the store suggested:
Hodgdon Universal Clays Formula. I don't recall if the bottle said "smokeless" or not.



In regards to the lube, I wiped the bullets down well with a rag after reloading - thinking I got all the case lube off. So, are you suggesting that the bullet lube ring on the lead round caused the smoke?

Originally Posted by Chuck Jones

ethan try shooting some cardboard or paper plates and check the hole shape then. it's kinda hard to tell with round nose bullets on paper
/c

Good call. I had some cardboard behind the target, just to steady it, but it has seen too many other various rounds put through it, that I can't tell what is what. I'll do this next time I am at the range.

[kingranch]

In regards to the lube, I wiped the bullets down well with a rag after reloading - thinking I got all the case lube off.

O boy! Perfectionist…aren’t you? You really do not need to lube tapered, short cases for resizing.

So, are you suggesting that the bullet lube ring on the lead round caused the smoke?

Sure thing!

[EthanG-M&P]

Originally Posted by kingranch

O boy! Perfectionist…aren’t you? You really do not need to lube tapered, short cases for resizing.
Sure thing!

Perfectionist I am, at least when it comes to something that could blow up my gun in my hands. Not something I am looking to do.

As for the lube, my dies are not that special metal that doesn't need the lube (at least it isn't labeled as such on the box). I have already seen build up of residue and lead in the bullet seating die, though. I am not a fan.

Jacked bullets for sure next time! Only 450 more lead rounds to shoot first!

[EthanG-M&P]

TSQUARED,

That's what I did... which is stated in the text you quoted me from. I was just making sure that info was reliable.

Thanks.

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by EthanG-M&P

As for the lube, my dies are not that special metal that doesn't need the lube (at least it isn't labeled as such on the box). I have already seen build up of residue and lead in the bullet seating die, though. I am not a fan.

Jacked bullets for sure next time! Only 450 more lead rounds to shoot first!

Most handgun dies on the market today are Carbide and need no lube. Even the inexpensive Lee dies need no lube for straight wall handgun cases. Which manufacturer's dies are you using and if available can you give us the part number? I'm betting they probably don't need lube. (remember, I said probably) Just because you see a build up of lead in the seating die doesn't mean you need to lube the brass cases. You're not going to like paying for Jacketed bullet and plated bullets aren't that much better than lead IMO.

[CTSixshot]

Hodgdon makes things a bit confusing when it comes to the "Clays" line of powders, especially if you just look quickly. There are three different powders in the "Clays" line:
"Clays"
"International Clays"
"Universal Clays"
These are all usable in handgun applications, but they are not the same powder. Be careful, make sure you are loading for the powder that you actually have!

Lyman 47 lists 1.110" OAL with the Lyman #356402 (121g TC-style cast bullet) and 1.065" OAL with the Lyman #356242 (121g RN cast bullet). Only data is with "Clays" for the #356402 (2.2g to 3.1g).

[ArchAngelCD]

Originally Posted by CTSixshot

Hodgdon makes things a bit confusing when it comes to the "Clays" line of powders, especially if you just look quickly. There are three different powders in the "Clays" line:
"Clays"
"International Clays"
"Universal Clays"
These are all usable in handgun applications, but they are not the same powder. Be careful, make sure you are loading for the powder that you actually have!

Actually only 2 of the 3 should be used in handgun applications. International can spike pressures quite easily in handgun applications and should not be used. Hodgdon has put a warning out about using that powder in handgun ammo.

[CTSixshot]

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

Actually only 2 of the 3 should be used in handgun applications. International can spike pressures quite easily in handgun applications and should not be used. Hodgdon has put a warning out about using that powder in handgun ammo.

See...I rest my case... I am confused!
You are correct, they don't list IC as a handgun powder; I mis-spoke. Thanks.

[EthanG-M&P]

I've been using 125gn LRN, with an overall length of 1.25, and 4grns of Hodgdon Universal Clays. I put 120 rounds through my M&P 9mm, with no issues so far.

As for the dies. I am using a Hornady set. I don't have the box next to me (it is at my dad's house), but the receipt says, "Series Ii 3 Die P". Which after a google search, is this:
Hornady Series II 3-Die Pistol Sets

On Bass Pro's website, it states that the dies don't need case lube, but this was never stated it in the directions or on the case, so I have I been lubing my cases for the first die, the resizer/deprimer.

A) Is it still OK to use case lube on the resize die, just to make things easier? Will that fine layer of lube distort the sizing of the casing?
B) If not, what is the suggested cleaning method to clean it out. I am guessing just some oil and a wipe down?

As for my seating die, I had a build up of bullet lube in it, which I have since fixed, by cleaning out the die and wiping the excess lube off the lead before sending it through the die.

[epj]

The lube won't hurt anything as long as it's not too thick. In fact, some folks recommend lightly lubing 9mm even with carbide dies. They're talking about using a very light shot of spray type lube rather than hand lubing each case as in traditional lubing. It may make sense, but I prefer to use no lube in my carbide dies.

[parabarbarian]

Originally Posted by EthanG-M&P

B]Flare question[/B]
Also, I have found that with almost every shell I loaded, I didn't shave off any lead (some did), but did however find some of the lube ring scratched out and appearing where the case ends. Was my initial flare too small, and didn't allow for the proper seating of the bullet, or is this normal and to be expected

No bullet or lube should be shaved off.

When I started reloading I used as a guidelie that the OD of the flare be 0.015" to 0.020" greater than the OD of the resized case. I normally eyeball it now but, for some reason, I checked it this weekend and the difference on my 357 setup is 0.018".

YMMV.