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Old 03-05-2011, 02:20 PM
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Default 357 short barrel round

Hi everyone thatnks for any feedback and just looking in.

Im working on a short barrel 357 load and im trying to get a little more power than the speer short barrel rounds but a bit shy of the full house 357. I have two revolvers that will carry this load a 327pc and a M&P 340. So im just going to list my available components and see what people think is the best to use.

Bullets

125grn barnes HP(lead free)
125grn rem golden saber HP
158 grn Rem LSWCHP

Powder; Unique Brass; starline primer; CCI 550


I m thinking the 125 barnes is my front runner choice with about 8 grains of unique. However the classic LSWCHP in a 357 could be given some extra power. I have heard that priiming your LSWCHP with a pen by pressing into the hollowpoint might aid in expansion. I also open to other powder recomendations maybe something faster that unique for thouse extra short barrels?

The reason im looking into this is my current round is a speer gold dot 158grn and I dont know if it can reach full expansion at the velocities its traveling at from my 1 7/8 inch barrels.

Thanks

Dan
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:16 PM
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I have heard good things about the old 158 lswchp, but have not yet reloaded any. I am curious to see what others have experienced.

Last edited by Huckelberry75; 03-05-2011 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:49 PM
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I don't have a crono but with the 158 LSWHP go with the Speer use Unique start at 6.5 max out a 7.0. The 6.5 works for me very accurate.

Pete
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:53 PM
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Just my opinion of course and you know what they say about opinions, but to me hitting your intended target in the X ring and to be able to make quick follow up shots are far more important than high velocity and/or bullet expansion.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:43 PM
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Chingachkook hit it right on the head shot placement is the most important thats why 6.5 to 7.0 of unique is a good load not hot but very accurate.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:23 PM
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Alright, let me give a little backround. I shoot a 125rgn round nose over 5.8 unique in a 38 plus p ,for plinking in both my 357/38 carry guns. I put a few thosand rounds a year through my guns and I dont have a problem with shot placment. Its been 15 years since the academy and ive only gotten beter with my wheelguns and im really not recoil sensitive.

The big problem I have is my favorite carry gun is a 357 short barrel but I feed these double tap 9mm through my walther pps DoubleTap Ammunition and Im having a problem justifieng carrying my 357 snub when loaded with 38 plus p rounds that dont come close to this 9mm power level. I really like my 357/38s and want to justify carring them by loading up some more powerfull loads but after you take into consideration the velocity loss from a short barrel you need some umph to overtake a suped up 9mm. (I can control that hot 9mm without any problems, in fact it seems way easer than controling my scandium snubs)

And heres speers short barrel anwser to the problem Detail Page for Part # 23917 Thats over 124 ftibs under the power of the hot 9mm in my walther pps.

Now I hope you can understand my desigher to find a hotter load for a short barrel 357.

Last edited by dan-g; 03-05-2011 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:38 PM
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Have you chrono'd your load out of the Walther? I like the offerings from Double Tap and Buffalo Bore, but I wonder if you aren't chasing unicorns here.

The Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load is pretty well regarded by people like Gary Roberts, aka Doc GKR. He is a leading ballistician, and does a lot of agency work. You can find his evaluations over at Tactical Forums, under the terminal ballistics section.

I use the Speer GDSB .357 load in my 649, and I don't think I'm giving up much compared to the Ranger bonded loads in my G26. Just my opinion, of course.

I also have the GDSB bullets to load up for duplication of the factory loads, but don't have any 38/357 data at hand. I do know that in a .44 with the 200gr. GDSB, 10 gr. of Unique will duplicate the factory loading.

Maybe somebody else can chime in with some info for your caliber.


ETA, if you like DT ammo, have you looked at these: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...products_id=48

357 Magnum 125gr. Bonded Defense JHP, 1425fps from a 1 7/8" S&W according the the mfr. Yahoooooo!
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Last edited by 2hawk; 03-05-2011 at 10:47 PM. Reason: add'l info
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:25 PM
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oohh man those are hot. I ran some 180grn bear loads through my 327pc and that was a little warm. I might pick up a box of those for fun but I was thinking about 1200 fps would be more in line with what I want.

I probably should have mentioned both my carry guns are scandium aloy frame guns one weighs 22oz and the other 12oz so I dont run super hot ammo throught them or it really slows down my follow up shots. I really do want to load some of these rounds rather than buy them though. I have 500 of the LSWCHP and 500 of the golden saber and 100 of the barnes so I really want to replenish my ammo storage boxes with my reloads.

I dont own a chrono and im probably not buying one but I can borrow one at the outdoor range so i might check it out.

Last edited by dan-g; 03-05-2011 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:35 PM
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Default Dare I say it.....

Dan, do a search for Speer #8 loading data on the forum here. Lots of good info.

Here's a link to the manual:
BBHFarm Gallery :: Speer #8, Speer Inc, 1970 :: abg

Check page 19/31, Defense Loads in a 2" Barreled Revolver.

Void where prohibited by law....

ETA, I would be very, very careful about using the data listed, particularly in an alloy gun. Powders have changed, and I can easily see an inexperienced reloader losing a gun or a hand if they were incautious or careless. ymmv.

ETA 2 You absolutely need a chronograph to see what your loads are doing. Don't try to load hot without one.
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Last edited by 2hawk; 03-05-2011 at 11:52 PM. Reason: CAUTION
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:43 PM
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I bet that 7.0 of unique with the 135gr GD will come close to the short barrel load.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:51 PM
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Wow 10.5 grains unique behind a 125grn sp from a 357 short barrel seems crazy. Everthing ive read seems to say 9-9.4 grain unique is a max with 125 grain bullets in 357. And theres no way im putting 2400 in there the muzzle flash and noise would be defening.

Very intresting read. The legends are true.

I think im going to just load up some rounds and start at 7.5 and work my way up to maybe 8.5. Ill get to the range this mon or tues.


And yea I think the 7.0 grain load would very closley emulate the GDSB. Im just more intrested in pushing these all copper flying ashtrays instead. They really have a very nice deep cavity.

Last edited by dan-g; 03-05-2011 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:55 PM
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Exclamation Important!

Dan, I was just adding another caution to my post as you posted, so just for my piece of mind, I'll say it again:

You absolutely need a chronograph to see what your loads are doing.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:58 PM
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IMO the Speer SB .357 Magnum round is hardly a .357 Magnum at all. With published velocities of only 990 fps it's just a glorified .38 Special +P. I think it was created to give those who bought a 12oz .357 Magnum revolver the satisfaction of shooting something called Magnum in their expensive revolver.

Sorry if I sound jaded in my old age!
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:17 AM
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One more for you Dan, from the "Notable Thread" sticky.

Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:47 AM
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7.5 grains of Unique give me about 950 fps with 158 grain SJSP bullets in my M&P 340. This is about as much as I care to shoot for range practice, as the recoil is beginning to get quite noticeable.

I also like 7.5 grains of Unique with 125 grain SJSP bullets, giving me about 990 fps, with about the same recoil as with the 158 grain SJSP bullets.
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:25 AM
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I think I would consider using .38 Special brass and a Speer #8 Unique load for short barrels. Your .357 shouldn't have any problems with the pressure developed and it'll be a little easier to shoot than a full blown Mag load. I use SR4756 loads at 1200 fps with a 125 gr Golden Saber, but that's just me and a 4" barrel.
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:03 AM
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Thank you archangelcd That is my exact thinking, I just didnt want to insult anyone. I do shoot 357 out of my 340 its not exeptionaly fun but I can pull it off but a 990 ftps round seems sad. I feel like ive reached the ceiling on fun with a 38sp load and want to try out some 1200 fps 357 rounds that burn of as much powder as posible to diminsh the fireball effect.

As far as using 38 loads from the speer #8, I really think that would limit my brass life rather drasticaly. However I do have about 2,000 38sp that have only been reloaded once or so. 8 grains of unique in a 38sp really does seem nuts to me though, even if I am putting it in a 357.

Hey HOOK is that 7.5 grains in a 357 with mag primers?

I read that fbi load thread and it made me want to buy some hs-6, even though ive barely cracked into my 8 lbs of unique

Im a little conflicted about this but I think my original concept of working up a 357 load sounds like a safer bet. That and I just got a case of 1,000 starline 357's and 5,000 cci550 so I should probably crack that open.

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Old 03-06-2011, 11:42 AM
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Years ago I used 10.0 gr of AL-8 with a 146 JHP Speer out of a Chief's Special. Recoil was noticeable, but not anything really painful.

Here's what Elmer said about the Chief's Special.
Quote:
The little Chief's Special or Centennial Smith & Wessons are lighter and more compact guns to carry in the pocket than is any comparably powerful auto pistol. These little guns will both handle .38 Special or .38/44 ammunition, and only the Super .38 compares with them in power.
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2hawk View Post
ETA, if you like DT ammo, have you looked at these: DoubleTap Ammunition

357 Magnum 125gr. Bonded Defense JHP, 1425fps from a 1 7/8" S&W according the the mfr. Yahoooooo!
From a lightweight J-frame, I would rather hold out my open hand and let someone who hates me take a swing at it with a wooden baseball bat.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan-g View Post
...

Hey HOOK is that 7.5 grains in a 357 with mag primers?....
Yes it is ,,, .357 magnum brass and CCI SPmagnum primers.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:17 PM
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Thanks for the clarification hook.

I just got back from the range today and I sent through my 38 plus p load for now. I started at my old 125grn hard cast lead rnd with 5.8 grns unique and finished with 6.3 grains, baby steps is always the way to go. (for anyone reading this these rounds are bieng fired in a 357 and yes there above my speer #14). I will get to the out door range next session and use there free Cronograph to find out where im at.

I will work up the 357 load when I get enough time to play around with my reloading gear. My lee pro 1000 is set up for 38 so its really easy to crank out some rounds. Im going to have to switch to my lee clasic for the 357 short barrels.

On a side note, my love afare with wood grips may have to end on my M&P 340. After firing off maybe 100 rounds through it im starting to feel it even at just the 6.3 grain load. I can normaly only handle 3 cylinders of 357 before Im done for the day. I might have to bust out those ugly hogue monogrips for it so I can continue testing or I could just put more rounds through my other 357 short barrel.

Last edited by dan-g; 03-09-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:28 AM
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Alright its been awhile but I finaly got to the range with some 357 loads. I tryed three loads and two prevailed. All rounds where fired in my S&W M&P 340 a 13oz gun with factory hogue boot grips.

first was the LSWHP 158gr with mag primers and 5.8 grains unique. This was a very nice round with almost the same recoil as my 125gr 6.3 grains unique practice round. acurracy at 50 ft was decent (all rounds in the torso of a 50ft 18x24 target) Unfortunatly some freinds wanted to go to the indoor range and it was raining so no chronigraph results yet. I will probably dial this round up to 6 grains of unique next range session and hopfull it will finaly stop raining so i can use the chrony. I am also thinking that I should try this in a 38sp case to get more power out of it when it comes to the chrony test.

Second round showing promise is the 125gr barnes lead free HP with 8.2 grains unique and mag primers. This round has an unfortunate muzzle flash even with unique and the recoil is the stoutest of the two. It acuracy was also acceptable but it does sting the hand a little to fire it at the end of a shooting sesion. I might dial this round down a bit.

Last edited by dan-g; 04-02-2011 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:02 AM
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Good morning
I have a Model 13-3 (3") and a model 19-5 (3.5") that I carry down here laoded with 159 LSWC 158 cast of 25/75 ww to pure lead on top of 6 grains Unique. As this is a self defense load it is going to expand up close and in the 13-3 double taps are no problem. The M19 is even easier. I prefer a 165 grain + cast bullet same mix same powder charge. Lyman 358429 is a great example.
A heavy soft slug at a modest velocity is all that is generally needed to end a situation.
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