I have an Iver Johnson Top Break .32 S&W Revolver and a H&R Top Break .38 S&W Revolver. They both are designed for black powder cartridges.
I also have two .38 S&W Top Break Revolvers that are designed for smokeless powder cartridges.

I've never reloaded a cartridge and have nothing to reload with. I've read a lot and watched a lot of You Tube videos. I purchased a .38 S&W Lee Loader off of ebay, but I ain't got it yet. Even if it will not work with the BP cartridges it will work with the SP cartridges.

I am looking for help on reloading the black powder cartridges.
Will case preparation be the same as on a smokeless powder cartridge?
I know the powder is not by weight. It is by volume.
I am at the end of my knowledge or at least I am to the point where I need to stop guessing and ask for help from folks who know what they are doing.
Where can I find detailed printed instructions [for black powder]? A good video would work.
Where can I find printed data?
Where is the best place to buy the correct bullets and brass cases? I may eventually cast my own bullets.
Maybe it is obvious that I need all the help I can get. I also, like everyone else, need to keep the cost down.

Thanks
Mule

BTW...From what I have read and viewed, I like the Lee Precision equipment.

Hi there, sorry to say I have no real info for you but if you check out some SASS (Single Action Shooting Society) sites, they shoot these little guns in side matchs and Im sure you can dig up some info there. The Lyman black powder loading manual also should have some info as well.

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Stay safe people!

Reloading a black powder pistol cartridge is not terrifically different from reloading a smokeless one. The case sizing, depriming, mouth flaring, repriming, and bullet seating & crimping operations are identical. The one big difference is that you measure the recommended powder charge WEIGHT (from a reloading reference) but you load by VOLUME for black powder. That is, the case is filled to just above where the seated bullet will be when finished. Black powder needs to be at least moderately compressed to burn well. Seating and crimping the bullet on top of that moderately compressed charge of black powder is correct.

Thanks, I did not know of the Lyman Black Powder Loading Manual. I'll try to locate one. I am sure it covers all types of black powder loading, even the lowly .32 S&W and .38 S&W.

John, thanks for the information.

If you are just looking for ammunition to shoot in your hinged-frame revolvers simply use the current factory loads that are available. These calibers have always been loaded so as to be safe in all revolvers of the respective calibers. This is deliberately done to avoid problems with shooters who are not sufficiently gun savvy to be selective in what ammunition they shoot in their guns.

If you WANT to load and shoot Black Powder go ahead and do so. If you just want to shoot the gun now you know what to use. And, shooting Black Powder in a revolver creates a much more difficult and urgent need for cleaning than shooting appropriate smokeless ammunition.

And, FWIW, there is no such thing as a hinged-frame S&W that was designed for smokeless powder. The basis design dates to the late 1880s.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

I don't have a hinged-frame S&W. Mine are Iver Johnson and Harrington & Richardson. My information comes from the author of the book; "Iver Johnson Arms & Cycle Works Firearms 1871 - 1993". He passed away in January 2011, but I talked to him by email before he was ill.

I would like to shoot the guns regularly, but not damage them or me. So, it is O K [safe] to buy store bought smokeless ammo or reload as smokeless [light load].
I think using the original powder would be different, to say the least.

Thanks for your help.

Mule

If you have no reloading experience, the first thing you need is a current reloading manual. Many different powder and bullet manufacturers produce them, but the Hornady manuals do have a very comprehensive step by step reloading guide. Get this and read it a couple times so you will know the steps involved and the pitfalls to avoid.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I have "Modern Reloading, Second Edition" by Richard Lee.

There is published reloading info for hinged revolvers. Lyman does include it in their Pistols and Revolvers book.

Both Bullseye and Unique powders date from the late 1800s.

Which one? All I remember from their manuals is that the data is for solid frame revolvers only.

I can't be of much help as I've never messed with black powder. Even in cap and ball revolvers I used Pyrodex, which you can find data for metallic cartridges with that if you wanted. The only sources I have for black powder data is in Lyman #34 and a little bit in Philip Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading". I use very light charges of Bullseye for my hinged frame H&Rs and IJs, but I'm not guaranteeing it's a good idea.

I found an H&R 5 shot 38 S&W top break in an old rent house we were working on. Pistol seems real solid. Internet info says black powder cartridge. I have a lee loader like new for 38 S&W. Should I load in black powder or can I use smokeless? Open for sugestions please.

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Since I started this thread, I have purchased a Lyman, Pistol and Revolver Handbook, C. Kenneth Ramage editor, copyright 1978.

On page 75 the .32 Smith and Wesson cartridge is listed. In the comments area it says; "Use maximum loads only in solid frame revolvers. For top-break-models (in good condition) use only the suggested starting loads. Do not go higher as these pistols are of a relatively weak design." With Bullseye the suggested starting grains is 2.0, with Unique it is 2.7. It does not mention Black Powder nor Pyrodex.

On page 81 the .38 Smith & Wesson (Colt New Police) is listed. In the comments area it says; "The loads listed are intended for solid frame revolvers which are in good condition." With Bullseye the suggested starting grains is 2.4, with Unique it is 3.5. It does not mention Black Powder nor Pyrodex. Neither does it mention top-break-models.

BTW...When I refer to Black Powder I am not being accurate. I will actually be using Pyrodex, because that is all that is available locally. I apologise for misleading you folks.

Mule

Black Powder can be a little tricky to load. You have to be sure there is no air-space between the powder and base of the bullet. You also need to use magnum primers. Since you are brand new to reloading I highly suggest you get some loading experience before you try Black Powder.

Lucky for you there is a new smokeless powder out there that mimics the pressures produced by Black Powder, that's Trail Boss. Trail Boss will produce ammo with similar pressures to Black Powder and you will even get a little smoke from it because it's intentionally added. It will produce safe ammo for use in your older and weaker top break revolvers. If you can't find load data for the calibers you want to load write or call Hodgdon and they will provide the load data.

Welcome to reloading...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Thanks, ArchAngelCD, for th information. I, for one, did not know about Trail Boss powder. I've heard & read the name, but, was not aware of the pressure being low. I will get a pound of it.

Mule

Actually, BP is very easy to load. No need for scales, fillers, no double charging, etc. The hard fast rule for reloading is to fill the cartridge to 1/16" above where the base of the bullet seats. Check your bullet dimensions and make sure you set the fill line of your powder just above, so the bullet base lightly compresses the powder. You can use a volumetric measure and once you have your load determined, just pour it in and finish the loading process as with smokless.

I would also recommend using magnum primers with Pyrodex to get more even and consistent ignition. Also, Pyrodex P is made for pistols, as this is a finer powder for better performance in small cartridge cases.

Thanks for the needed info.

Pyrodex is made by Hodgdon. I have several complimentary data guides from them that lists data for metallic cases and it's probably on thier website. Look for data for "cowboy" or "cowboy action" or etc. type loads.

It's also important to clean your cases THOROUGHLY between loadings with black. The residue is just as corrosive to brass as it is to gun steel. My practice was to carry a milk jug 1/2 full of soapy water to the range, and drop the cases in as they were fired. Then when you get home, put them into a mesh bag and run 'em thru the washer-dryer. Just be sure they're fully dry when you load 'em into your tumbler.
Worked great for me in .44-40.

Larry

I'll betcha a phone call will get me a complimentary data guide headed my way.
Course I will be lookin for the Hodgdon data guide on the net.

Thanks, to you, Jellybean.

Mule

I ain't sure my Bride will allow me to run them through the Washing machine and then the drier. She would be afraid of an explosion. There is no way to convince her that it will not happen.

Something to keep in mind is to be careful of static electricity and sparks when loading with black.It's different from loading with smokeless powders.

arjay, that can be a scarey thought. Thanks for mentioning it.

Mule

Thanks ArchAngelCD for the tip on Trail Boss Powder. I had a gunsmith check this old top break H&R in 38 S&W and he thought it was solid. I bought a box of 158 gr. hornady lead bullets, some small pistol magnum primers, a can of Trail Boss. Ordered some 38 brass and loaded a few rounds. The first round I loaded pretty light, then stepped it up a couple at a time. Found reload formular on the net for Trail Boss. First shot sounded like a cap gun. Second sounded like a pistol, hit a target dead center about 20 ft. Pistol shoots great. Looking foward to shooting it a lot more. It shoots real straight. We know the pistol hasn't been fired from at least 1942. Thanks y all for all your info!!

I just do it the easy way. There is no way you're likely to hurt a good sound gun with light reloads using modern powders. I shoot 32 S&W in this Iver Johnson 1st. Model loaded with 1.1-1.2 grains of Bullseye. No...I don't range-shoot it, but the little gun is plenty strong enough to handle it. In my case, cylinders and other spare parts can still be obtained for this little Judy-Pooper. I don't shoot it much, but when I do...I just don't fool with black-powder at all.

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I'm very happy that worked out for you and I'm glad I could steer you in the right direction. There are a lot of new powders on the market and sometimes I feel they are just duplicating what we already have but not with Trail Boss. It isn't everything for everybody but it does do what it was designed to do very well. Trail Boss is perfect for loading smokeless ammo to Black Powder pressures!

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I've loaded 38spl(for a '51 Open Top that I had) and 45/70 both with black powder and pyrodex. DO NOT use a plastic powder measure(like the Lee Perfect Powder Measure) to load black powder or pyrodex. The static from the plastic can and will cause the powder to detonate, not a good thing.
You can use the Lee Powder Dippers, pick the one with the proper CC's to measure out the amount of powder in grains that you'd like to use.
Black Powder or Pyrodex is best with zero air space or even a slightly compressed load and magnum primers are a must to touch off all that powder so you'll get a clean burn.
I'm sure if you google it you'll come up with a lot of good info and SASS/CAS will probably have some good info on their forums.
Also, as had been stated, you can use a light charge of smokeless if you'd like. There'd be less fuss and muss and you'd not have to soak your cases in soapy water after you shoot em' to kill all the corrosive salts from the powder residue.
You'd also not need a magnum primer for a light charge of smokeless either.
Either way be careful and read up on everything you can get your hands on before you take the journey into loading the smokie stuff.

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S&W M642-2,
ATI 1911a1, 4.25"

I forgot to mention above, DO NOT compress Trail Boss and break the "donuts" up. (look at the powder and you will see what I mean by donuts) The shape and coating on the powder controls the burn rate and it can be a little erratic and possible go overpressure if you compress it.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Just bought an unfired H&R .38S&W break top, circa 1912, and can't bring myself to shoot it. It is MINT. So I was forced to buy an old Iver Johnson break top .38S&W less than mint so I can shoot. Thanks for all the info I learned from reading this thread. Will begin reloading soon. (Have been reloading a number of cartridges since 1981, so I have that experience.)This cartridge is a new one for me. Will load it mild.

I started looking for black powder loads for the .38 S & W revolver I recently purchased, discussed in the " Antiques" section of this forum. Of course, one loads black powder so that it is compressed by the bullet, so, I can figure out a decent volume of FFFg on my own. I am, however, seeking information on a recommended or ideal lead bullet, both in grains and diameter.

Okay, I will risk my reputation here, but who ever originated the idea that blackpowder rounds must be loaded with Magnum primers? Nonsense! I have loaded and fired black powder rounds using standard primers for nearly a decade and never had a problem.

I've been using Trail Boss in my old top break revolvers and love it. Have used both black powder and Pyrodex as well. Both of the latter are dirty and produced far more felt recoil than the near full, uncompressed loads of TB in both the 32 and 38 S&W. When shooting black powder I was only able to shoot two full cylinder loads out of my 32s before fouling began to interfere with cylinder rotation. Wasn't quite as bad with the 38 S&W but was still became factor with efficient operation as more shots were fired.
I use unsized home cast round nose bullets made with a Lyman 358311 mold, tumble lubed in Liquid Alox. Accuracy is good and have had no problems with leading.
Some shooters complain about the smell of burnt Trail Boss. Heck, at one time or another I've thought all powders stank . It's an acquired taste. Shoot enough of it and you'll learn to like it.
John

I shoot nothing but BP in this. it is my 1873 uberti deluxe sporting rifle in 44wcf with BP you always want to make sure the case is full enough to compress the powder with the bullet and there is no air space, then you will be safe.

This is not a general "requirement" for loading black powder. This began with those shooting long range precision games with black powder target rifles. Rules prohibit duplex loading and they have found that they see less fouling and improved accuracy when using magnum rifle primers. You are correct, this is not necessary.

Personally I do duplex load, use a grease wad under the bullet, and use standard large pistol primers in rifle cartridges. But I am hunting and recreationally shooting where NRA rules do not apply.

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Gunsmithing since 1961

Back in the BP days, the standard factory BP loading for the .38 S&W cartridge was:
.38 S&W: 14.125 grains Black Powder, 146 grain lead bullet (0.360")
10 shot avg. velocity 635 ft/sec (@25' from a 5" barrel). A smokeless powder load producing equivalent velocity or less would also be OK in older top break revolvers.

BP residue is messy to clean up and will gum up your revolver in a hurry. I avoid its use other than for C&B revolvers. And even then, I normally use a mixture of BP and Pyrodex pistol. Ignites better than Pyrodex and doesn't gum up the works so quickly.

BP is easy to clean! people have a misconception about it. I use a "big lube bullets" the molds can be had from a fellow over at CAS city - The World of Cowboy Action Shooting - Powered by Outdoor Channel. he goes by the handle "dick dastardly" he has a web site you can order the mold from. they have a large lube grove. use only spg BP lube and "only" real black powder. Pyrodex is a joke in the world of BP for clean up use ballistol mixed with 50% water. just swab the bore and the cylinder, brush and wipe clean. I can clean a gun shooting metallic cartridges filled with black powder in half the time it takes me to do a good clean up with smokeless. but you need to clean your gun when you are though shooting. BP is a blast to shoot! it makes a very loud "boom" and you get a cloud of white smoke.