Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:14 AM
parabarbarian parabarbarian is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 299
Likes: 12
Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts
Default How Effective are Gas Checks?

I want to try some of the Rimrock 158 gr SWCHP in 38 spl. I hope to achieve 900 - 1,000 fps velocities in my 3" 686+ though that may be just wishful thinking. However, this is a very soft bullet (5 BHN) and I'm wondering just how well the gas check really works to prevent leading. Anyone have any experience with gas checked lead bullets?

I also want to try their 148 gr DEWC but at more sedate velocities of around 800 or so fps. Since it is a hard cast bullet (20 - 22 BHN) I don't anticipate any leading problems.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-03-2011, 01:45 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

I find a gc pretty effective for controlling leading w/ soft bullets, but good fit works to 1000fps too. I like them for 25-1 LHP going 1200fps+.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-03-2011, 07:27 AM
Mule88's Avatar
Mule88 Mule88 is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Vandalia, Ohio
Posts: 1,751
Likes: 297
Liked 231 Times in 137 Posts
Default

To add to the above post, for whatever reason, I seem to shoot tighter groups on an average when using gas checks.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:51 AM
primersp primersp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: france
Posts: 211
Likes: 80
Liked 90 Times in 43 Posts
Default

i shoot an lot of gc bullets since in rifles than in revolver with no problems the bullets are soft because they are h.p and they expand
better.
the wc will be more hard.

good shoot
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-03-2011, 02:01 PM
parabarbarian parabarbarian is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 299
Likes: 12
Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Thanks everyone. I guess I will go ahead and order some of each to experiment with.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-03-2011, 08:02 PM
tlen's Avatar
tlen tlen is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Kansas
Posts: 214
Likes: 3
Liked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Guess I'm a Little confused. Why would one want to use expensive gas checked bullets to get 900-1000 FPS when hard cast lead bullets are much cheaper and should work fine ? For the $18.50/100 cost for gas checked bullets you can buy bulk jacketed bullets. Doesn't make sense to me.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Idabel, Oklahoma
Posts: 306
Likes: 23
Liked 42 Times in 16 Posts
Default

parabarbarian,

The Gas Checked bullet you're about order looks good to go. I see it has a 5 BHN, which is pretty much pure soft lead. The gas check should indeed help in preventing any leading with such a soft bullet.

On the other hand, the 148 Gr. DEWC's you mentioned having a BHN of 20-22? I didn't see that on their website on the link you provided. Expect leading my friend.

In the world of cast bullets, harder is not always better. The mighty .44Magnum was born using a bullet of only 15 BHN. A much softer bullet is much preferred for .38 DEWC's at the velocity you're talking about. A BHN of 10-12 should work 'okay', but there are some variables such as your barrel condition and the bullet lube. I would go with a 'sample of the .38 DEWC's at 20-22 BHN before ordering more than a 100.

Murphy2000
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-03-2011, 09:33 PM
mkk41 mkk41 is offline
Banned
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: South East , PA . USA
Posts: 5,027
Likes: 485
Liked 1,610 Times in 884 Posts
Default

A properly alloyed and sized hardcast bullet , with properly selected powders can be driven 1500fps and doesn't need a gascheck. Gaschecks are a band-aid for poor reloading componant selection , more to prevent vaporization of the base of a poorly alloyed lead bullet and the wrong powder.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-04-2011, 10:12 AM
bluetopper's Avatar
bluetopper bluetopper is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northeast TX
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 614
Liked 987 Times in 409 Posts
Default

Yes, I would choose another bullet source to a non gas check bullet if only 1,000 fps was my goal. They are many online cast bullet sources that make very nice plain bullets for cheap that perform great.

The only gas checks I shoot are out of my 500 S&W Handi-Rifle on either side of 2,000 fps.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-04-2011, 11:04 AM
NiklasP NiklasP is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Default

I load those RimRock 158 grain SWCHPGC bullets to 1200 fps in a 5inch barreled M60 and get no leading at all, for at least 20 rounds. Load is 9,5 grains Blue Dot in 357 mag cases. This is load that stays in that M60 for home defense and CC. I want the rapid expansion it provides.

I also load Remington 158 grain SWC swaged bullets to 1000 fps with lesser amounts of Blue Dot or Green Dot and get no leading in any of my 357s. Suspect I can go to 1200+ fps and still get no leading. I use these Remington swaged bullets for three reasons: 1) low cost, 2) absolutely no leading and 3) good to excellent groups in all my 357s.

Hard cast bullets need to be very precisely fitted to individual gun, IF one wants to assure lack of leading -- OR -- need to be used in loads creating enough pressure to assure that they obdurate enough to fully seal the bore. Eazy way out when using hard cast bullets is to use ones with gas checks. For me this means heavy for caliber, gas checked bullets, say 175-200 grain .358 GC bullets in 357s and at near max loads.

Niklas
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-04-2011, 01:16 PM
parabarbarian parabarbarian is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 299
Likes: 12
Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlen View Post
Guess I'm a Little confused. Why would one want to use expensive gas checked bullets to get 900-1000 FPS when hard cast lead bullets are much cheaper and should work fine ? For the $18.50/100 cost for gas checked bullets you can buy bulk jacketed bullets. Doesn't make sense to me.
This is an experiment. Almost all of my handloads are bulk RN, FP or DEWC -- Berrys plated bullets for the most port.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-04-2011, 01:26 PM
parabarbarian parabarbarian is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 299
Likes: 12
Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2000 View Post
parabarbarian,

The Gas Checked bullet you're about order looks good to go. I see it has a 5 BHN, which is pretty much pure soft lead. The gas check should indeed help in preventing any leading with such a soft bullet.
Thank you. I've never handloaded a gaschecked bullet before.

Quote:
On the other hand, the 148 Gr. DEWC's you mentioned having a BHN of 20-22? I didn't see that on their website on the link you provided. Expect leading my friend.
Here is the decription of the "Premium Hardcast Bullets":
Quote:
Hard cast lead bullets for reloading; hunting, target shooting etc. 20-22 BRINELL HARDNESS. Bevel base unless otherwise noted. Our lead mix for these is 4% tin- 10% antimony- 86% lead.
Rim Rock Premium Hard Bullets

Quote:
In the world of cast bullets, harder is not always better. The mighty .44Magnum was born using a bullet of only 15 BHN. A much softer bullet is much preferred for .38 DEWC's at the velocity you're talking about. A BHN of 10-12 should work 'okay', but there are some variables such as your barrel condition and the bullet lube. I would go with a 'sample of the .38 DEWC's at 20-22 BHN before ordering more than a 100.

Murphy2000
Your point is taken and appreciated. All of my reloading experience is with plated or jacketed bullets and these will be experimental. Partly I want to determine if it is worth learning to cast my own. I picked the two I mentioned because they are used in commercial loads I've tried with good results.

Last edited by parabarbarian; 06-04-2011 at 08:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-04-2011, 07:34 PM
amazingflapjack amazingflapjack is offline
US Veteran
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 5,947
Likes: 24,644
Liked 6,195 Times in 2,575 Posts
Default

I would add an emphasis on sizing. The throat diameters of the cylinder are critical, followed by the barrel diameter. I have found that these dimensions alone can often narrow my decision on all the other factors in bullet choice/construction very quickly. Flapjack.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-05-2011, 01:33 AM
BUFF BUFF is offline
SWCA Member
Absent Comrade
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 5,062
Likes: 739
Liked 3,271 Times in 1,282 Posts
Default

The only time I have found gas checks really helpful in handguns is in a full-power .357 Magnum loading (or 1,200 fps .38 Specials for the .38-44). For loads in the 1,000 fps and slower category, I haven't found them helpful; correct sizing works just fine. They do give great accuracy if everything else is good. I believe the uniform bases they provide is helpful.

For some reason, .44 and .45 caliber bullets without gas checks that I cast from the same alloy are much cleaner (lead less) than .38/.357 bullets when fired at the same velocities.

I worry about a gas check coming off and sticking in the bore. Probably not a worry at 1,000 fps.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-05-2011, 04:15 PM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SW MT
Posts: 6,690
Likes: 10,392
Liked 5,972 Times in 2,942 Posts
Default

I think the only reason for a GC is with the soft lead load. It should be very soft for consistent expansion @ 38 velocities. I don't know how much penetration you will get with that soft of a hp.
As was stated in my area jacketed HP are cheaper than the price quoted. I would go that route and clean the bbl between bullets if it were me.
__________________
Front sight and squeeze
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-05-2011, 10:03 PM
moxie moxie is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 292
Liked 641 Times in 345 Posts
Default

As others have said, those bullets work for them. But, to me, they seem like a long and expensive way around the horn. I'd go with some decently hard, non-gaschecked, and affordable bullets from Missouri Bullets.
Missouri Bullet Company
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-06-2011, 06:29 AM
Missionary Missionary is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arequipa, Peru
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

Good morning
At those slow velocities you do not need GC´s.
Bullet fit is far more important.. use a bullet that is .001 over throat. Hopefully your barrel groove diameter is less than throat diam. also.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-06-2011, 02:00 PM
parabarbarian parabarbarian is offline
Member
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 299
Likes: 12
Liked 34 Times in 26 Posts
Default

After considering all the steps I will have to go through to get a cast bullet to work right, I think I'll stick to swaged and plated or jacketed bullets for the time being.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-07-2011, 02:56 PM
Bomberman's Avatar
Bomberman Bomberman is offline
US Veteran
How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks? How Effective are Gas Checks?  
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Off the beaten path, PA
Posts: 136
Likes: 1
Liked 10 Times in 8 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by parabarbarian View Post
After considering all the steps I will have to go through to get a cast bullet to work right, I think I'll stick to swaged and plated or jacketed bullets for the time being.
Whoa! Don't give up so easily. You're well on your way to very inexpensive shooting. To break it down all you need to do is:

1. Measure the diameter of your barrel. To do that take a soft bullet (or lead fishing sinker) and drive it from the muzzle to the forcing cone with a wooden dowel. Once you do that, measure the diameter of your bullet (or sinker) at the widest point. It is a little more difficult with a S&W because of the 5 grooves but it can be done.

2. Take the same bullet and drop it in your cylinder...if it goes through or hangs up slightly and can be pushed out with minimal pressure, you're good to go.

3. Take that measurement from your bullet and buy or cast bullets that are .001 or .002 inches larger.

That's it...reload them using reliable data for the speed you want. You will get very little to no leading.

Don't give up...it's not "Rocket Surgery".
__________________
Have .44, will travel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
357 magnum, 686, commercial, m60, model 60, remington

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how effective is tha 32 S&W long round sonny700 Ammo 76 03-02-2020 11:52 AM
Effective range of the M&P 10 Deeked Smith & Wesson M&P10 Rifles 1 09-21-2013 09:12 PM
Gun Control is Effective Cordite 2nd Amendment Forum 5 01-15-2013 02:22 PM
How Effective is the 410 RonJ The Lounge 35 09-01-2012 08:39 PM
Effective range on 15 sport? Clear Black Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 6 11-03-2011 12:39 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:34 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)