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  #1  
Old 06-26-2011, 09:46 AM
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Smile .357 Magnum Factory Duplication Load

Hi:
I would like to load some factory duplication loads using a 158gr. JSP/JHP.
Suggestions?
Thank you,
Jimmy
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:26 AM
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Are you talking a factory duplicate load from say the 1930's-1940's when the 158 grain JSP was much hotter than now, or a current load? There is a difference. What gun are you going to be shooting this in? (I wouldn't want to try one of those early .357 loads in a little J-frame jst because of the recoil)

I know in the November 1935 American Rifleman Elmer wrote that with 15.4 grains of 2400 and a 158 grain bullet he duplicated the factory load with a velocity of 1518 fps. I'm sure 2400 is better burning than in those days, and I wouldn't dream of using that listed load AND NEITHER SHOULD ANYONE ELSE! I can tell you that my .38-44 loads in my Outdoorsman are duplicating today's .357 loads and then some in .38 +P cases.

For my current loads, I use a Lyman #358156 cast bullet and 12.5-13.0 grains of 2400, and that should cover all of your needs. They do pretty well in my 27-2.
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:18 AM
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I used to load those bullets with 14.0 grains of 2400. Now with the new chemical makeup of 2400, I believe 13.5 grains is better.

I also use W-W296, 16.3 grains with a small pistol magnum primer.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:01 PM
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I wonder how accurate old Elmer's MV calculations were.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:10 PM
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Winchester and Remington report a velocity of 1235 fps from their 158gr JHP/JSP .357 Magnum ammo.

I have clocked a Remington 158gr FMJ bullet from a charge of 16.4gr W296 using a CCI-550 primer at 1158 fps from a 4" barrel. That load might equal the factory ammo because I'm not sure what length barrel is being used with the factory ammo data although Remington claims it's from a 4" barrel. Hodgdon says you can charge as much as 16.7gr W296 and other sources go as high as 17.0gr H110. I'm guessing the additional powder might get you close. Using Lil'Gun will probably get you there easier but that powder might have problems of it's own when used in a revolver.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:12 PM
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The last Winchester loading data booklet, published by Winchester, shows 18.5 grains of 296 for the 125 grain JHP and 16.6 grains of 296 for a 158 grain JHP. The data says to use magnum primers and a very stiff crimp. It also says to never reduce the charge with 296 from the data shown as it does not react well to low density loadings.

I have used the 125 grain loading a lot.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:13 PM
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Up to 15.0 grains of 2400 with 158 grain jacketed bullets in the Model 27.

Finally got around to shooting a few in the Colt Python last week and they shot great out of it.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:25 PM
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Back in the 1980's I did some tests to equal Remington's 158 grain softpoint load in both a 4" revolver and a Marlin 1894.
In the Marlin the Remington load chronographed at 1754fps.
In a model 19 it was closer to 1100fps but the 19 gives less velocity than my 686 with all loads. I tried 16 grains of H110 with a 160 grain Speer softpoint. Velocity was 1660fps in the Marlin and 1040fps in the 19.
At 17 grains of H110 the velocity equaled the Reminton load at 1756,1748,1764fps. I did not shoot that load in the 19. At 17 grains of H110 you will notice that the primers are really flattened out.
I later tried a 158JHC Sierra bullet with 16 grains of H110 CCI mag primer in my 686 and velocity ran 1167,1165,1173fps.
That is very consistant.
Now there is another load which will produce consistant velocities
in my 686 and that was 11 grains of Bluedot.
With a 158JHC Sierra velocities ran 1226,1251,1220fps.
These loads are hot and will flatten primers.
I like but have discontinued using Bluedot. I have recently shot some AA#7 and this powder produces no noticable flash like BD and H110.
I wish I had some data to share on the AA powders as this may be the way to go in the future.
I still load 16 grains of H110 for the rifle and the 686.
I keep hoping someone has run some AA powders over the chronograph as I would love to see the data.

I hope that this was helpful to you.

Bruce
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:19 AM
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About 7 years ago I loaded some .38 Special out of a new can of Alliant 2400 using a 158 gr XTP. Out of three different guns I averaged about 1200 (1191-1213) fps with 12.5 gr of 2400. That makes me wonder why people are loading .357 Mags that won't do any better than that? After all, that's only 50 fps more than .38-44 loads.
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:14 AM
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I load 13.5 grains of 2400 for use in my Marlin 1894C, S&W 627PC, 5" barrel and Desert Eagle, 6" barrel. I get 1140 fps in the 627 and 1350 fps in the DE and 1625 fps in the Marlin 1894C. I use 158 grain SJSP, or XTP/HP bullets and Winchester primers.

When checking jacketed 158 grain factory loads with my S&W 686 6" barrel I got from 1120 fps with PMC to 1465 fps with Federal Hydra-Shoks.

I figure best I can do is chronograph the factory round I want to emulate, the match the bullet being used in it and then try to match the velocity using the powders I reload with. I'm content with 13.3 grains of Alliant 2400 as my basic .357 magnum load in all but my S&W 340 J-Frame.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:28 AM
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Im getting around 1275 fps. with 15.5 gn of H110 and Speers 158 GN Gold Dot out of a 5 inch 627. A bit more in longer tubes.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:05 AM
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158 gn cast SWC from an Accurate mold, 10.0 gns of Blue Dot, 5" blackhawk = 1225 fps.
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:23 AM
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I load 16.7 grains of H110 myself.

This is not a factory equivalent load, this surpasses current factory 158s in terms of velocity.

Are you trying to achieve factory velocity? Factory recoil? Factory muzzle flash? These would all be different loads. Also why do you want to duplicate a factory load instead of loading the cartridge to it's potential?

I personally love the non-factory, huge orange muzzle flash of H110. I also love to deep KaaaaaBOOM that H110 makes over other powders Bang.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:42 AM
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All the loads below duplicate factory velocities very closely. Note the use of standard primers with 2400 as recommended by current Speer data. Magnum primers will push pressures up with 2400. I've had cratered and pierced primers using a mag primer with 14.0grs of 2400 and 158gr Speer bullets some 20+ years ago now.

14.0grs of 2400 behind a 158gr Rem JSP loaded in a Remington Case lit by a CCI 500 standard small pistol primer produced 1,243 fps average from my 4" S&W M66.

15.8grs of H110 behind a 158gr Rem JhP loaded in a Remington Case lit by a CCI 550 magnum small pistol primer produced 1,219 fps average from the same 4" S&W M66.

13.0grs of AA#9 behind a 158gr Rem JSP from miscellaneous brand cases lit by a WSP primer produced 1,289 fps average velocity from a 6" Colt Trooper MK3.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:24 AM
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IMO if you have the right gun, meaning an N frame, L frame, or a Ruger, 14.0 to 14.5 grains of 2400 pushing the 158 grain bullet is okay, but work up to it and don't start there. It is a pretty stout load at 14.5, and will cause flattened primers, but there are factory loads that flatten them more. I've shot 14.5 with a 173 grain Keith through a couple of 686s and they seem to be none the worse for it.
I no longer shoot stuff this hot in any K frame, just on general principles, and keep my max loads for K frames at about 1150-1200 fps (calculated).
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:19 PM
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I use a load that Paul5388 gave me from an old manual that runs my H&G #290BB, 160gr Phil Sharpe design, at 1280fps out of a 6" M586.

Easy enough for the wife to shoot in that heavy of a gun.

That same load develops 1580fps from her Marlin 1894 Cowboy Special.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moxie View Post
I wonder how accurate old Elmer's MV calculations were.
Probably fairly accurate. I use an even 15 grains and have for years and it will exceed 1500 fps in my longer barreled N frames.
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:19 AM
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It seems like I remember Elmer having more than one load tested at the HP White lab for pressure and velocity.
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Old 07-02-2011, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul5388 View Post
It seems like I remember Elmer having more than one load tested at the HP White lab for pressure and velocity.
Do you by any change remember what those pressures were? (although I'm guessing you would have posted them if you did but I thought I would ask just in case)
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:11 PM
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The pressure I'm sure of was part of the .44 Mag loading here.



In the development of the .357 Mag, in the early 1930s, S&W recorded 42,000 psi using #80 powder (according to a 1969 G&A article by Elmer) and a 358429.

I'll have to look around and see if I have any other pressure figures from Elmer.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:18 PM
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I load 15 grains of 2400 w/ 158 grain hard cast and jacketed bullets, CCI 550 (std small pistol primer works also), Starline brass, for my M27-2 revolver. This load is superbly accurate, I've loaded and shot it for many years. In fact this is about the only load my M27 has seen since I bought it new in 1981, and it's seen alot of them.
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:32 AM
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I like how Elmer called 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 gr bullet in the .44 Special (Skeeter Skelton's load) a "light gallery load".
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:12 AM
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The foreword to "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads" is an interesting read from 1936. SIXGUN CARTRIDGES AND LOADS

Here's the 1969 G&A article I alluded to earlier (it's 6.9 megabytes, so don't try a dialup connection).
http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/19...orite_Load.pdf
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:53 AM
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Here's a November 1935 American Rifleman article by Elmer on the new S&W .357 Magnum. The loads he used should tell you something about modern loads.

http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/Ameri...n/Keith357.pdf
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Old 07-03-2011, 02:14 AM
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Recently I ran a brief test to compare different primers with 2400 powder and cast bullets in my S&W md 28 with 4" barrel. The load was
14.8 grs of old Hercules 2400, Win. brass and a hard cast 158 gr SWC
of the bevel base type with hard blue lube often seen at gun shows and
sold by various vendors. Five rounds of each with five different primers
ran; Win SP avg. 1222 fps, CCI 500 SP avg. 1237 fps, Rem. 1 1/2 SP
avg. 1244 fps, Rem. 7 1/2 SR avg. 1245 fps, CCI 400 SR avg. 1247 fps.
Win. 296 powder in Win. brass and Win. SPM primers and jacketed
bullets were tried; 16.6 grs and 158 gr Hornady XTP avg. 1114 fps,
17.2 grs and 150 gr Sierra HP avg. 1131 fps, 18.8 grs and 140 gr Speer
HP avg. 1173 fps and 21 grs and 125 gr Sierra HP avg. 1335 fps. I was
a bit disappointed with the velocities of the jacketed bullets and see
little reason to use them in the 158 gr weight.
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:45 AM
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As an old coot, I'd like to point out that the velocities quoted in old publications could be charitably characterized as "optimistic". Velocities could be obtained by chronographs or ballistic pendulums and were few and far between. Also, the test barrels that allegedly produced the results were frequently longer than standard handgun barrels and there was no vent to simulate the barrel/cylinder gap.

Between that and improvements in current chronographs, comparison of old and new data isn't exactly apples to apples.
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:00 PM
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I load 14 grains of 2400 with Hornady 158 XTP, Rem cases, and Rem 5 1/2 primers. Fairly hot, but not ridiculous. When I do my part, that load will hold 1" at 25 yards out of a 686 no dash. Velocity is right at 1200 fps.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:43 AM
Peter M. Eick Peter M. Eick is offline
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I shoot 14.5 grns of 2400 with lead 158's all the time.

The current Seirra manual list 15 grns of 2400 with a 158 JHP. I don't think that 15.4 grns is really that far off. That is in the range of gun to gun variations.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:54 PM
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Groo here
As I remember,,, the 357 "HOT" loads were built with LEAD
SWC's and shot in at least 6 in barrels.
Similar loads with jackets will not be as fast...
Lets match apples to apples here..
Also the keith bullet was designed to use as much of the
cylinder as possible [ And they were shorter than today]
with 38 spec and 44 spec cases..
Even with magnum cases the over all length was about the same.
[ Those short cylinder you know]
The original loads were hot { I shot them in M-28's and Pythons]
but the now ones are somewhat slower due to the jackets and
the use of smaller guns..
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:50 PM
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Great info.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:33 AM
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Shooting the hot 357s now & then reminds me why I prefer 41 mag.

No caliber wars intended, I just don't care for the sharp little bark my 357s produce at the upper load range.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:51 AM
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.357s are the reason I wear ear protection!

Back in the late 1960s we didn't have or know to wear ear protection. It wasn't even issue items in the military, so it never crossed our minds that it was needed. The .357s I shot would make my ears ring for days before it subsided and that was using factory loads.

I changed to some very hot 125 gr handloads and the blast was even worse. I still shoot those 125 gr loads, but I do wear hearing protection now!
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Old 07-17-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul5388 View Post
I still shoot those 125 gr loads, but I do wear hearing protection now!
HUH?

Seriously, there is a much different "pitch" with the hot 38 calibers. They are so sharp that they almost hurt your ears. A 44Mag doing 1400fps from a 5" barreled revolver is not even close to the same "pain".
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:21 AM
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At 1600+ fps they are pretty loud, they'll blow the wax out of your ears and maybe your ear drums!

I suppose you realize we're talking maximum SR4756 loads in Speer #8?
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Old 07-18-2011, 09:09 AM
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15.0gr A2400 under the 158gr Horn XTPs chromos 1,400 fps from my 5 ” FA M97 (std primers, 65 deg F, 5 paces from the muzzle).

Talking about eye/ear protection, most of the hearing loss that I sustained was in the early 60s. My first .357 was a Ruger flat top that I got when I was about 14. In those days, we didn’t know about eye or hearing protection. Shooting factory ammo without hearing protection was so painful, we used to break off the filters from the parents cigarettes and stuff them in our ears. I remember experiencing some eye irritation after one session. Looked in the mirror and there was a black spot in the white of my eye. I was terrified that if I told the parents they would take the Ruger away. Using a toothpick, I very carefully removed the powder particle.

Paul
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