Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > Ammunition-Gunsmithing > Reloading
o

Notices

Reloading All Reloading Topics Go Here


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-03-2011, 07:27 AM
dhom dhom is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default Titegroup

Does anyone have a favorite load for a 44mag using titegroup and a 300gr cast bullet?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-03-2011, 08:14 AM
Fkimble Fkimble is offline
Member
Titegroup  
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 476
Likes: 1
Liked 53 Times in 39 Posts
Default

Fast powders and overly heavy bullets for the caliber is not a "good" combination. If you must use a fast powder & heavy bullet combo then keep it on the mild side.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-03-2011, 11:57 AM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

bad combo ....
in fact I wouldn't use titegroup in a 44 magnum period.
if you want a powder for light loads use Unique .. in fact save some money on your bullet as well and sling about 200 grains of lead from a charge of Unique.
300 grain bullets are almost entirely 2400 H110 territory
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-03-2011, 01:31 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

GUns have actually been blown up using TG & heavy bullets in many calibers. No room for error, none at all. You want a good mild 300gr load, start w/ Unique & work it up where you want it. I do think TG makes great plant fertilizer though.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-04-2011, 03:49 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
GUns have actually been blown up using TG & heavy bullets in many calibers. No room for error, none at all. You want a good mild 300gr load, start w/ Unique & work it up where you want it. I do think TG makes great plant fertilizer though.
my thoughts exactly ... theres a price to pay for excessive penny pinching. Fine arms and body parts. Just because the velocity and recoil are low does not indicate that the chamber pressure is too in fact with TG in this case I suspect that the pressure will be nuclear before a passable load is achieved.
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-04-2011, 09:55 PM
roundgunner's Avatar
roundgunner roundgunner is offline
US Veteran
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rural, CT
Posts: 1,721
Likes: 578
Liked 1,390 Times in 324 Posts
Default

I’m one of the weird guys that really like Titegroup.

For me it has replaced Bullseye, Reddot & 700X. It is the only thing I use for 380 and 38spl. 357 up to mid power, 40s&w for light IDPA loads and then to 950fps with a 175 cast. It is the only powder I use in 45acp anymore and also 44 spl. It is also good for 45 Colt. I shoot 99.9% cast and do not push the envelope like I did when I was young and stupid.

In 44 mag I use a 240 SWC with 5 gr for bowling pins and plinking, towards the end of a bowling pin match the pins get heavy so I have some loaded with 6 gr.

I’m sure I wouldn’t try TG with a 300 grain SWC, and I won’t try to get a 240 SWC going 1300 fps with tite group either but that is not what it is made for. Some folks are very resistant to change, but think nothing of picking up a pound of Bullseye.
__________________
Shoot fast & live long
Warren
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-04-2011, 11:44 PM
m657's Avatar
m657 m657 is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sunny Orygun
Posts: 2,910
Likes: 392
Liked 307 Times in 195 Posts
Default

I have no use for a 300 gr 44 mag and haven't done any range work with it.

I do like titegroup for moderate loads in 38, 44 special and 45 LC.
__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-05-2011, 03:49 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundgunner View Post
Some folks are very resistant to change, but think nothing of picking up a pound of Bullseye.
I tried BE about 30yrs ago, never bought another #. TG, nope, the idea of having a powder charge I can NOT easily see in a case seems foolish. Powder is the cheapest part of a handgun load, so I choose based on performance. Yes, TG has a place in bunnyfart loads, but pushing the top end in small volumn/high pressure rounds is running the edge IMO. You see a lot of guns blown up in IDPA & USPSA, guys trying to make major w/ either 9mm or 40 & TG pay a price.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-05-2011, 05:44 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

No Titegroup. Too little in the case to suit me. Pushing heavy bullets hard with it? Um, NO, bad idea. Then again, that isn't just true with Titegroup. Any fast burning powder would have the same limitation.

I even tried it in 500S&W Magnum for a light load. It worked and Hodgdon is pretty proud of that powder. The tout that it is position insensitive. Okay, maybe. I don't really care about that unless being position sensitive causes spreads to be enormous, something I am pretty sure isn't going to happen with most powders.

I too see no need for the heavier bullets in the 44Mag unless, maybe, it is out of a short barrel and you want to try to get more ME. For practical application of the 44Mag, handgun hunting, long distance handgun stuff, carbine hunting rounds, a longer barrel is needed and that means you can get more velocity and that means that a slower powder is the way to go. Although, slower powders always give more velocity no matter what the barrel length, it just stands to reason that pushing a heavy bullet you need a slower powder.

FWIW
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-05-2011, 06:03 AM
dhom dhom is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Actually, I was just looking for a plinking load, but the common opinion seems to be that it is not a good combo with a 300gr cast. I will most likely go with 2400. As always, thanks for your input!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-05-2011, 12:43 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundgunner View Post
I’m one of the weird guys that really like Titegroup.

For me it has replaced Bullseye, Reddot & 700X. It is the only thing I use for 380 and 38spl. 357 up to mid power, 40s&w for light IDPA loads and then to 950fps with a 175 cast. It is the only powder I use in 45acp anymore and also 44 spl. It is also good for 45 Colt. I shoot 99.9% cast and do not push the envelope like I did when I was young and stupid.

In 44 mag I use a 240 SWC with 5 gr for bowling pins and plinking, towards the end of a bowling pin match the pins get heavy so I have some loaded with 6 gr.

I’m sure I wouldn’t try TG with a 300 grain SWC, and I won’t try to get a 240 SWC going 1300 fps with tite group either but that is not what it is made for. Some folks are very resistant to change, but think nothing of picking up a pound of Bullseye.
I find some exceptions to the use of fast burning powders in magnums. one being wad cutters.
since the whole slug gets pushed into the case, the internal volume shrinks right into their ideal operating range.
what you seem to do with titegroup, is something I address with Unique... like you, its a product of getting over my young self
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-05-2011, 01:04 PM
roundgunner's Avatar
roundgunner roundgunner is offline
US Veteran
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rural, CT
Posts: 1,721
Likes: 578
Liked 1,390 Times in 324 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I tried BE about 30yrs ago, never bought another #. TG, nope, the idea of having a powder charge I can NOT easily see in a case seems foolish. Powder is the cheapest part of a handgun load, so I choose based on performance. Yes, TG has a place in bunnyfart loads, but pushing the top end in small volumn/high pressure rounds is running the edge IMO. You see a lot of guns blown up in IDPA & USPSA, guys trying to make major w/ either 9mm or 40 & TG pay a price.
You have responded negatively to a couple of responses I have given to questions about the use of Titegroup but have not said what powder and weight you use.

I shoot 6 IDPA matches a month during daylight savings time and 2 a month during winter at our local club. I SO the winter Championships at S&W most every year, and go to many other state and local matches and I have not seen anyone have a problem with this powder. Many of my close shooting buddy’s use it and I don’t know of any of them having problems either.

I do check multiple manuals and do my homework as I build a load to do a particular job. I surly don’t want to have a detonation but I’m confident I have been doing safe loads for over 30 years. With respect do you have any info to the contrary or is it all opinion.
__________________
Shoot fast & live long
Warren
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-05-2011, 08:58 PM
bigredd bigredd is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I haven't tried titegroup before but i do like making light loads with 325gr hard cast bullets and unique is what i use to do it. My .44 ruger shoots most loads well but has never shot another bullet quite as well as the 325s not to mention if your normal hunting load consist of heavy bullets and thats what its sighted for a 240gr swc at 800fps isn't going to hit any where near your point of aim. I dont think there's a problem with what you want to accomplish, after all reloading is all about making the load you want or need, unique may just prove to be your better powder choice.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-08-2011, 12:28 AM
Nemo288's Avatar
Nemo288 Nemo288 is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Badgerland
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 557
Liked 1,496 Times in 786 Posts
Default

The Alliant manual lists 19 grains of 2400 as max charge for a 300 gr bullet.
Hornady lists 17 grains as max for their 300 gr XTP.
7.5 gr of Unique gives you roughly 1000 fps with a 240 cast bullet.

I would start with 6.5 gr of Unique and work up if you need to.
2400 is overkill for a plinking/target round in lead.
6.5 gr fills about 3/4 of the case in a 240. With a 300 you may
see near 100% capacity.

The usual disclaimers apply.

---
Nemo
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-08-2011, 02:48 PM
tdan tdan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 505
Likes: 18
Liked 111 Times in 59 Posts
Thumbs up

Since the OP mentioned that he was looking for a plinking load for that 300gr. bullet, Titegroup may work very well. If the poster was looking for a max velocity load, I would agree with the folks that recommend the slower burning pistol powders. All of this said, I am in the camp of Roundgunner when it comes to Titegroup. This is a fantastic powder for lower velocity target loads. I've found that this powder delivers superb accuracy in those older low pressure cartridges such as 38 Special, 44 Special, 45ACP, and 45 Colt............especially the 45 Colt. As to the naysayers that whine about a small amount of fast powder in such a large case with the inevitable Kaboom from a double charged case........I say............Don't use it if you are not a competent and careful handloader. I load those 45 Colt rounds on a single-stage press. Bullets are seated ONLY after the charged cases sitting in the loading block are visually inspected. My Redding measure drops this powder with "dead nuts" accuracy. Titegroup is one of the best metering powders that I have had the pleasure to work with.

I keep hearing these statements that Titegroup burns "hot" and causes leading. Anyone have a link that cites scientific evidence about this "hotter burning" claim? I don't consider statements like......"my gun feels warmer after shooting Titegroup loads"........to be all that scientific. As to leading..........I use Titegroup for my 148gr. HBWC bullseye loads in my K-38. I have had no leading issues with Titegroup loads, and a swaged hollow-based lead wadcutter is about as soft a lead bullet as you will find.. Titegroup has replaced VV-N310(another superb powder for bullseye loads) in my K-38 loads, as it delivers a very small gain in accuracy at 50 yds over the VV-N310 loads. Kudo's to Hodgdon for coming up with this "improved" powder formulation in the fast burning genre. They certainly gave this powder an appropriate name..........This stuff delivers!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-08-2011, 04:45 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdan View Post
Since the OP mentioned that he was looking for a plinking load for that 300gr. bullet, Titegroup may work very well. If the poster was looking for a max velocity load, I would agree with the folks that recommend the slower burning pistol powders. All of this said, I am in the camp of Roundgunner when it comes to Titegroup. This is a fantastic powder for lower velocity target loads. I've found that this powder delivers superb accuracy in those older low pressure cartridges such as 38 Special, 44 Special, 45ACP, and 45 Colt............especially the 45 Colt. As to the naysayers that whine about a small amount of fast powder in such a large case with the inevitable Kaboom from a double charged case........I say............Don't use it if you are not a competent and careful handloader. I load those 45 Colt rounds on a single-stage press. Bullets are seated ONLY after the charged cases sitting in the loading block are visually inspected. My Redding measure drops this powder with "dead nuts" accuracy. Titegroup is one of the best metering powders that I have had the pleasure to work with.

I keep hearing these statements that Titegroup burns "hot" and causes leading. Anyone have a link that cites scientific evidence about this "hotter burning" claim? I don't consider statements like......"my gun feels warmer after shooting Titegroup loads"........to be all that scientific. As to leading..........I use Titegroup for my 148gr. HBWC bullseye loads in my K-38. I have had no leading issues with Titegroup loads, and a swaged hollow-based lead wadcutter is about as soft a lead bullet as you will find.. Titegroup has replaced VV-N310(another superb powder for bullseye loads) in my K-38 loads, as it delivers a very small gain in accuracy at 50 yds over the VV-N310 loads. Kudo's to Hodgdon for coming up with this "improved" powder formulation in the fast burning genre. They certainly gave this powder an appropriate name..........This stuff delivers!
I dont mean to step on your neck here .. but the load in discussion is a 300 grain baseball sized chuck of lead over titegroup ....
this is getting fairly extreme as combinations go.
what TG does in a 38 HBWC load lives in a totally different universe as does all the other loads cited with only your 45 LC example having a chance of representing the OP's goals.
if we are talking about a 200 grain in a 45 colt, we have a reasonable load but still fall well short of a proper comparison to establish a baseline due to the 300 grain baseball proposed.
Yes, it can probably be done but it dont mean it should be.
A plinking load is defined by its economics foremost, with 300 grains of increasingly precious metal involved, it fails the category. 300 grains from a 44 or 45 is a business class cartridge and shouldn't be tortured into something its not.
that said I'll assume the op has a mold for said bullet and is looking to save some green when he has fun on the range.
then I suggest that the 300G mold is in need of a buddy ... a 200 grain wadcutter mold.
since it will devour most of the case space without presenting an absurd workload, it does extraordinary things over fast burning powders, in fact it works out better with fast powders. Not only is the result superior by comparison its a cast 2 cast one free kind of deal without the narrow margin issues.
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-08-2011, 08:57 PM
roundgunner's Avatar
roundgunner roundgunner is offline
US Veteran
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rural, CT
Posts: 1,721
Likes: 578
Liked 1,390 Times in 324 Posts
Default

The heaviest load I have done with Titegroup is 45 Colt 260gr SWC over 6.1 tg for 790 from my 4" model 25.

__________________
Shoot fast & live long
Warren
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-08-2011, 09:31 PM
tdan tdan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 505
Likes: 18
Liked 111 Times in 59 Posts
Default

<I dont mean to step on your neck here .. but the load in discussion is a 300 grain baseball sized chuck of lead over titegroup ....
this is getting fairly extreme as combinations go.>

Good grief.........don't be such a drama queen. I'm not passing judgement on the practicality of the OP's choice of bullet weight for plinking. His 300gr. bullet may be quite accurate in his gun. Since you don't know how much bullet nose sits out past the cannelure, you don't really know much case is available for the powder charge. A 300gr. bullet clocking under 1000 fps isn't going to be any more of a handful than a typical 240gr. bullet clocking 1300 in the 44Mag.

Roundgunner.............I load 45Colt with 6.2 grains of Titegroup under a 255gr. lswc. This load clocks 825 fps in a 5" 625-5. Your loading seems to produce results similar to mine. Amazingly, I get a velocity spread of 12-15fps with this recipe that prints one-hole groups at 25 yds. This is with a case that can be filled with three times as much of a slower powder............Amazing indeed!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-09-2011, 02:51 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundgunner View Post
You have responded negatively to a couple of responses I have given to questions about the use of Titegroup but have not said what powder and weight you use.

I shoot 6 IDPA matches a month during daylight savings time and 2 a month during winter at our local club. I SO the winter Championships at S&W most every year, and go to many other state and local matches and I have not seen anyone have a problem with this powder. Many of my close shooting buddy’s use it and I don’t know of any of them having problems either.

I do check multiple manuals and do my homework as I build a load to do a particular job. I surly don’t want to have a detonation but I’m confident I have been doing safe loads for over 30 years. With respect do you have any info to the contrary or is it all opinion.
It's nothing personal, I just do NOT like that powder & it's a terrible first choice for a newb reloader. You need to be able to visually verify your powder charge, really diff w/ TG in big cases. Then it spikes @ the top end, especially w/ heavy bullets. So spikey pressure powder running hard & you get a bullet setback? Yeah, that is a KB, happens quite a bit, especially in the USPSA & IDPA crowd as foolish reloaders try pushing the 40 to major w/ 180gr bullets. Yeah, I am a TG hater, always will be. Again, nothing personal, you have your opinion basedon you exp, I have mine. TG has it's place for bunnyfart loads, but pushing heavy for caliber bullets to any serious vel, not a good idea.
Proof, no, I only know what I see. Ask a guy that blows up his next gun @ a match & see what he was loading. A really good chance it's TG. SO as I always ask, why load it? There are 5-6 other powders that give sim or better results, upto 1.5x more volumn per charge weight, lower heat, less smoke w/ lead bullets, etc. It is cheap to use, but then again powder is the cheapest part of a pistol reload, not where I look to shave 1/3 of a penny/rd. I will continue to rail against it, if it bother you, just smile & be content in your choice, it just is not mine.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-09-2011 at 03:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-09-2011, 09:06 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

Any of you Tite "groupies" have a chronograph?

They tout that Titegroup is position insensitive but I wonder just how true that is. Wanna do a test for us here on the forum?

Now, I am not a TG hater, I don't use it anymore, just me. There are a lot of powders I don't use anymore, Green Dot is one, Blue Dot is another, you get the drift.

I just want to know if it really is position insensitive, in real world tests.

So, you revolver dudes that use it, do this for us: Load your normal load and before shooting each shot of cylinder full, point the gun to the muzzle. Remember to do it after each shot, recoil will move the powder around. Make a note of your chronograph readings.

Then, do just the opposite, hold the firearm at port, muzzle lifted perpendicular to the ground before each shot, and run them over the chrono. Make a note of your readings for doing this.

Just curious, be 100% honest, not that you wouldn't be. We just need real world stats, not manufacturer sales jargon.

Preferably, a large case with a bunny phhht load would be best for this test. @ 9mm with a 147gr RN with a full charge isn't going to tell us much. A 44Mag, 200gr LRNFP with the minimum charge will though.

Thanks in advance!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-09-2011, 11:06 AM
H Richard's Avatar
H Richard H Richard is offline
US Veteran
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Central IL
Posts: 22,758
Likes: 18,437
Liked 22,313 Times in 8,245 Posts
Default

O.K. Skip. I have done some testing but with 44 Special and cast bullets. Titegroup did O.K. with the 200 gr RNFP. Done with my 24-3 3" barrel.

200 gr RNFP, 5.3 gr Titegroup, OAL 1.455", Fed 150, MV 813, ES 43.07, SD 13.26. 2 1/2" groups at 25 yards.

200 gr. RNFP, 7.5 gr. Unique, Fed 150, OAL 1.454", MV 762, ES 74, SD 18.50, 3.0" groups at 25 yds.

240 gr SWC, 5.0 gr Titegroup, Fed 150, OAL 1.485", MV 720, ES 50.62, SD 13.92, 3.0" Group at 25 yds.

All groups shot off sandbag rest, with my old eye's. They may be better with younger eye's behind the sights. I agree, I don't think a 300 gr bullet belongs in front of Titegroup.
__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-09-2011, 01:12 PM
tdan tdan is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 505
Likes: 18
Liked 111 Times in 59 Posts
Default

<TG has it's place for bunnyfart loads, but pushing heavy for caliber bullets to any serious vel, not a good idea.>

Can you not read what the OP was asking about? He wanted a plinking load recipe for a heavy for caliber bullet. Not once was a maximum velocity load for a 300gr. bullet mentioned. You then go rambling on about pressure spikes and Kabooms caused by using Titegroup to make major in 40 s&W!!!???...............Titegroup was not formulated to give maximum velocity in high pressure cartridges loaded with heavy for caliber bullets. Titegroup delivers maximum accuracy at reduced pressures for a bunch of pistol calibers.

Skip...............I've never had any powder that has produced lower chrongraphed velocity spreads in the 45Colt than that 6.2 gr. load for a 255gr. lead boolit. I can get a bit more velocity with Unique or similar slower burning powders for that bullet, but not as good accuracy. I learned a long time ago that accuracy in a firearm trumps velocity every time! Some of you folks that rail against Titegroup remind me of what Christopher Columbus was up against.........Since the earth is flat, you will sail off the edge of the world if you sail too far west into the Atlantic Ocean..............Get a grip............Make an attempt to embrace modern smokeless powder technology!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-09-2011, 03:40 PM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Thumbs up Chill!

Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
O.K. Skip. I have done some testing but with 44 Special and cast bullets. Titegroup did O.K. with the 200 gr RNFP. Done with my 24-3 3" barrel.

200 gr RNFP, 5.3 gr Titegroup, OAL 1.455", Fed 150, MV 813, ES 43.07, SD 13.26. 2 1/2" groups at 25 yards.

200 gr. RNFP, 7.5 gr. Unique, Fed 150, OAL 1.454", MV 762, ES 74, SD 18.50, 3.0" groups at 25 yds.

240 gr SWC, 5.0 gr Titegroup, Fed 150, OAL 1.485", MV 720, ES 50.62, SD 13.92, 3.0" Group at 25 yds.

All groups shot off sandbag rest, with my old eye's. They may be better with younger eye's behind the sights. I agree, I don't think a 300 gr bullet belongs in front of Titegroup.
Thanks Rich for the info. I am really curious as to how it does with the muzzle tests described above.

Dan, take a chill before you blow a gasket, bro. I just choose not to use it, nothing personal. I do embrace new powder technology, when it really performs better than the old technology. Case in point: Lil' Gun in a large bore carbine, 44Mag, 45 Colt.

It isn't odd that some folks like one thing and others like another. If it wasn't like that, everyone would still be eating vanilla ice cream!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-10-2011, 12:17 AM
roundgunner's Avatar
roundgunner roundgunner is offline
US Veteran
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rural, CT
Posts: 1,721
Likes: 578
Liked 1,390 Times in 324 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
It's nothing personal, I just do NOT like that powder & it's a terrible first choice for a newb reloader. You need to be able to visually verify your powder charge, really diff w/ TG in big cases. Then it spikes @ the top end, especially w/ heavy bullets. So spikey pressure powder running hard & you get a bullet setback? Yeah, that is a KB, happens quite a bit, especially in the USPSA & IDPA crowd as foolish reloaders try pushing the 40 to major w/ 180gr bullets. Yeah, I am a TG hater, always will be. Again, nothing personal, you have your opinion basedon you exp, I have mine. TG has it's place for bunnyfart loads, but pushing heavy for caliber bullets to any serious vel, not a good idea.
Proof, no, I only know what I see. Ask a guy that blows up his next gun @ a match & see what he was loading. A really good chance it's TG. SO as I always ask, why load it? There are 5-6 other powders that give sim or better results, upto 1.5x more volumn per charge weight, lower heat, less smoke w/ lead bullets, etc. It is cheap to use, but then again powder is the cheapest part of a pistol reload, not where I look to shave 1/3 of a penny/rd. I will continue to rail against it, if it bother you, just smile & be content in your choice, it just is not mine.

I’m not sure why but I think the IDPA crowd you are hanging around with are doing it wrong.

You seem to like to talk about 40 S&W so we will use that as an example.

40S&W would be used in guns competing in SSP (stock service pistol) or ESP (enhanced service pistol) both of which need to be above the 125,000 power floor.
That means in my case a 175gr TC cast bullet needs to go over 715 fps. That aint much folks. It also needs to have enough recoil to cycle the guns action.

I look up in a couple reloading manuals and come up with a max load of 4.7 TiteGroup.
I start low and work up. See my chart…



So when I get to 3.2 for 755 bingo.... IDPA load way under manufacturers limits. Can’t see why a newb would blow a gun using this.

I on the other hand want a load that is similar to the 995fps I get from my Speer GDHP so I keep climbing the scale towards what the manufacturer said was a safe limit. Presto at 4.5 I get 965 fps a load that feels like GDHP but cost me only about 5 cents to shoot. I’m still .2 grains away from max safe and happy to be able to shoot a lot of ammo and be prepared for zombies.

If the people in your club are doing it like this everything should be OK. The last gun I saw blow up was with Winchester white box. (9mm)
__________________
Shoot fast & live long
Warren
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-10-2011, 03:58 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdan View Post
<TG has it's place for bunnyfart loads, but pushing heavy for caliber bullets to any serious vel, not a good idea.>

Can you not read what the OP was asking about? He wanted a plinking load recipe for a heavy for caliber bullet. Not once was a maximum velocity load for a 300gr. bullet mentioned. You then go rambling on about pressure spikes and Kabooms caused by using Titegroup to make major in 40 s&W!!!???...............Titegroup was not formulated to give maximum velocity in high pressure cartridges loaded with heavy for caliber bullets. Titegroup delivers maximum accuracy at reduced pressures for a bunch of pistol calibers.

Skip...............I've never had any powder that has produced lower chrongraphed velocity spreads in the 45Colt than that 6.2 gr. load for a 255gr. lead boolit. I can get a bit more velocity with Unique or similar slower burning powders for that bullet, but not as good accuracy. I learned a long time ago that accuracy in a firearm trumps velocity every time! Some of you folks that rail against Titegroup remind me of what Christopher Columbus was up against.........Since the earth is flat, you will sail off the edge of the world if you sail too far west into the Atlantic Ocean..............Get a grip............Make an attempt to embrace modern smokeless powder technology!
Yes tdan, I read it. My point, there is little room for error & pressure spikes are the same issue loading 300gr bullets w/TG in the 44mag as they woudl 180gr @ the top end int he 40. TG was meant for very light loads using "normal" bullet wts for a given caliber.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-10-2011, 04:06 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundgunner View Post
I’m not sure why but I think the IDPA crowd you are hanging around with are doing it wrong.

You seem to like to talk about 40 S&W so we will use that as an example.

40S&W would be used in guns competing in SSP (stock service pistol) or ESP (enhanced service pistol) both of which need to be above the 125,000 power floor.
That means in my case a 175gr TC cast bullet needs to go over 715 fps. That aint much folks. It also needs to have enough recoil to cycle the guns action.

I look up in a couple reloading manuals and come up with a max load of 4.7 TiteGroup.
I start low and work up. See my chart…



So when I get to 3.2 for 755 bingo.... IDPA load way under manufacturers limits. Can’t see why a newb would blow a gun using this.

I on the other hand want a load that is similar to the 995fps I get from my Speer GDHP so I keep climbing the scale towards what the manufacturer said was a safe limit. Presto at 4.5 I get 965 fps a load that feels like GDHP but cost me only about 5 cents to shoot. I’m still .2 grains away from max safe and happy to be able to shoot a lot of ammo and be prepared for zombies.

If the people in your club are doing it like this everything should be OK. The last gun I saw blow up was with Winchester white box. (9mm)
Yes, in IDPA, 40 is shot minor. In USPSA, it can be shot major & that is where some get into trouble. Also not sure what "manual" you got your loading data from, as a 175gr bullet is not a std wt for the 40. Speer does show 4.7gr as max w/ a 180gr. Depending on the gun, it makes about 920fps. That is pushing really hard when one can easily get 920fps w/ a dozen other powders & have a huge safety margin pressure wise.
THe same is true for "plinking" loads w/ a 300gr bullet in the 44mag. Sure, you can cobble a 900fps/300gr load together using TG, it will be running rather hard there, but can be done. Why? There are again, maybe a dozen powder thast will run the same 900fps w/ a huge safety margin. Match the powder to the task, they all have their place. IMO, IME, TG is a great bunnyfart powder w/ light to std wt bullets going relatively low vel. If you want morem don't push uberfast powders to get there, change to a slower powder. Again powder IS THE CHEAPEST part of a handgun load. Saving 1/3 of a penny, even a full penny, just not as important as safty & performance.
BTW, I agree, safe reloading techniques will limit most mishaps, BUT, one has to be smoking something to tell me it's not easier to determin powder charges, particularly in large case, if one can see the powder charge more easily. That is where all newbs should be thinking, safty first, & anything that accomplishese that is better, regardless of saving as much as 1/3c per round.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-10-2011 at 04:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-11-2011, 06:02 AM
dhom dhom is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Does anybody remember my original question? Only one person actually gave me a load to try. With the answers I got the question should have been,,,,,,,,,,Who is for TG with heavy cast bullets and who is against? Good luck with your discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-11-2011, 06:30 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Thumbs down Flawed question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
Does anybody remember my original question? Only one person actually gave me a load to try. With the answers I got the question should have been,,,,,,,,,,Who is for TG with heavy cast bullets and who is against? Good luck with your discussion.
The answer is in there, you just don't like it! Wrong powder for caliber/bullet combination. If it wasn't so, you would be able to find data from reliable sources such as the powder manufacturer or a good manual and not rely on a gun forum to give you a load!

Listen, call Hodgdon and ask them. In this world of electronic technology surely you have a phone!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-11-2011, 12:02 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
Does anybody remember my original question? Only one person actually gave me a load to try. With the answers I got the question should have been,,,,,,,,,,Who is for TG with heavy cast bullets and who is against? Good luck with your discussion.
thats only because one of the components involved it a hotly debated one.
from what ive seen, people have pushed TG a bit, but not up to the 300G mark ..
I suspect that it will be splendid behind a 200G wadcutter which you might determine to be the 8th wonder of the plinking load world. Light and easy shooting, at a higher velocity than your 300 which will make it more useful off the range while saving money.
in the 800 - 900 FPS range its a phenomenal bunny buster and good general problem solver.
On the range, where WC's are most at home, targets are punched so cleanly there is little to debate at the rings .... if your keeping count
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-12-2011, 03:31 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
Does anybody remember my original question? Only one person actually gave me a load to try. With the answers I got the question should have been,,,,,,,,,,Who is for TG with heavy cast bullets and who is against? Good luck with your discussion.
No serious reloader seeks data on any reloading forum IMO. Unless you KNOW what you are doing, how do you know the data you are getting is valid? If it isn't in a published form, how do you know it has been vetted & is safe? There is probably a good reason TG data doesn't show up for a 300gr 44mag loads in any book I have but Lee, which I can't take seriously. If you want to try & extrapolate form that, it's there, but for a jacketed bullet only. Hey, I can get any powder to go bang in any cartridge, but there are better choices for certain tasks.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-12-2011 at 03:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-12-2011, 06:14 AM
dhom dhom is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default

The Hodgdon manual lists it with all bullet weights up to 355gr. [44 mag]
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-12-2011, 08:31 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

You are right and thanks for checking. What it doesn't have is a load for your specific bullet. Now what to do?

Well, you can adjust one of the loads that is there, say a starting load for a 25gr heavier bullet and see how things go, OR you can use that phone thingy and call them. You could even use the email tool on their website. They will get back to you quickly and I have done this more than once when I was trying to push the envelope on a couple of loads.

Great folks.

There is another site that you may want to subscribe to, loaddata.com. They have all of Brian Pearce's data from the Handloader Magazine and it is a wealth of information.

Have fun, be safe.

p.s. Titegroup is NOT going to be in any 44Mag cartridge of mine with a heavy for caliber bullet, period. The reasons have been very well spelled out. An appropriate analogy would be using a croquette mallet to drive in steel fence posts. Will it work? Maybe, for a while, one thing for sure, it ain't gonna work well. There will be too much room in the case for air, something I really don't like and it hinders accuracy.

If you want a plinking round, and it sounds like you do, get some 200gr RNFP Cowboy bullets, some Trail Boss, fill the case to the place where the bottom of the bullet will stop and have fun. Your wife/girlfriend/significant other/kids will be able to shoot those loads!

FWIW
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-12-2011, 02:39 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
The Hodgdon manual lists it with all bullet weights up to 355gr. [44 mag]
Ive seen that as well, along with some rather ambitious figures.
So ambitious I whole heartedly question everything above 240 grains. its claiming a top load that yeilds only 50 FPS less than H110 .. that cant be right without the use of plutonium.
I suspect a 300G "plinking load might really run in the 500 - 650 range in actual practice .. while this will punch paper, and make cans dance, any use off the range is equal to stabbing things with a .430 diameter rod.
if you just have to use TG due to having a stockpile on hand ... my bet is that it will perform with great brilliance behind a wadcutter while saving you money all around
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-13-2011, 05:54 AM
dhom dhom is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default

I am convinced that TG and 300gr cast are not a good combo. How about Universal with heavy cast for light to medium loads? [dare I ask, ha! ha!]
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-13-2011, 06:05 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Lightbulb Just opinion....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
I am convinced that TG and 300gr cast are not a good combo. How about Universal with heavy cast for light to medium loads? [dare I ask, ha! ha!]
Yes, I would think that Universal would be a good choice. I have never used it but have heard only good about it. Same burn rate as Unique and cleaner burning.

No matter what you do, you aren't going to find a 100% consensus for your load. I call it the "Ford and Chevy" thing.


That burn rate should provide better results. Just one other caution, don't go below minimum with your load. If so, there is a possibility that you can stick a bullet in the barrel.

Best to you on your search......
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-13-2011, 10:00 AM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Universal or Unique will work in this case. I still maintain that 2400, H110, LilGun, AA#9 or similar belong behind it though as I view it as a strict business load component.
youve never said if you cast your 300's or not. I'd like to believe this is the case. I cant say as Ive launched everything out of a 44 magnum possible, but Ive launched enough to advise you with almost anything you can cook up.
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-13-2011, 06:27 PM
m657's Avatar
m657 m657 is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: sunny Orygun
Posts: 2,910
Likes: 392
Liked 307 Times in 195 Posts
Default

re: "If it wasn't like that, everyone would still be eating vanilla ice cream!"

ah....well, having just completed extensive home-range trials with THIS, I've found that either a 3" waffle cone OR a medium bowl with 2 oz. home-grown strawberries to be maximally effective....
__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-13-2011, 08:59 PM
venomballistics's Avatar
venomballistics venomballistics is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: between beers
Posts: 8,874
Likes: 4,772
Liked 6,926 Times in 3,302 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m657 View Post
re: "If it wasn't like that, everyone would still be eating vanilla ice cream!"

ah....well, having just completed extensive home-range trials with THIS, I've found that either a 3" waffle cone OR a medium bowl with 2 oz. home-grown strawberries to be maximally effective....
any true ice cream eater knows Raspberrys are the only true berry... Elmer Kieth's Mother said so
__________________
it just needs more voltage
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:07 AM
dhom dhom is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default

Sorry, no I don't cast bullets at this time. I'm three years from retirement. Maybe then I could find time to cast and shoot. The bullets used are from S&S casting in Illinois. [300gr trunicated cone]
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-14-2011, 09:42 AM
Mark in GA Mark in GA is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Coastal Georgia
Posts: 251
Likes: 9
Liked 133 Times in 63 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhom View Post
Actually, I was just looking for a plinking load, but the common opinion seems to be that it is not a good combo with a 300gr cast. I will most likely go with 2400. As always, thanks for your input!
I'm going to try my best to answer the original question. By plinking load, I am assuming you mean an 800-1000 fps load. Double check with Hodgdon's data and use the data for the 325 cast if they don't list a 300 cast. You should find a working load between 7.0-8.0 grs of Titegroup. If your bullet has two crimp grooves use the longest OAL that will fit in your sixgun. BE CAREFUL!!!!!

Now, that being said, I have worked a good bit with TG, Bullseye, Red Dot and other really fast burning powders in the 44 Mag and Heavy 45 Colt with 300-325 cast bullets. Can you make a plinking load yes. Based on my direct experience, I would STRONGLY recommend going to a medium burn speed powder. You won't need 2400, No. 9 or other slower speed powders and in fact they only seem to work best at higher pressures (closer to full power loads).

The sweet spot for me was around 800-950 fps loads with medium speed powders like Unique, Universal, Power Pistol, No. 5, and HS-6. These won't be cowboy action light loads, but are very reasonable pressure-wise. Your Sixgun and you will readily digest a ton of them and they are pleasent to shoot (not all the muzzle blast like the slow powders). You will also find that the medium speed powders burn VERY cleanly with the resistance offered by the 300 grn bullets and the recoil isn't too bad. More of a slow push than and snap. Based on what I experienced, I don't think the super fast burning powders and really heavy for caliber bullets are a good match. The pressure curve is really steep and there is little margin for error. Remember the axiom: Just becasue you can, doesn't mean you should.

What I found was that the upper end of this range 900-950 fps make great field loads. Remember the cowboys used to kill plenty of animals and bandits with a 250 gr bullets at this same speed in their 45 Colts. You will have plenty more thump with your 300's.

Get you a 1 lb. can of a mid speed powder and work up. I think you will be very happy.

Good Luck,
Mark in GA
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 07-14-2011, 11:08 PM
roundgunner's Avatar
roundgunner roundgunner is offline
US Veteran
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Rural, CT
Posts: 1,721
Likes: 578
Liked 1,390 Times in 324 Posts
Default

I saw this in the manual and thought of this thread.

__________________
Shoot fast & live long
Warren
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-15-2011, 01:11 AM
Skip Sackett Skip Sackett is offline
Banned
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Hoosier Land!
Posts: 4,379
Likes: 587
Liked 576 Times in 307 Posts
Default

I have no problem with the sales hype, round. I just want to know that it is so in reality!

Not like a company, even a good company with good slogans, can't exaggerate a bit when it comes to their products.

Just sayin'
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-15-2011, 01:46 AM
Nemo288's Avatar
Nemo288 Nemo288 is offline
Member
Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup Titegroup  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Badgerland
Posts: 2,371
Likes: 557
Liked 1,496 Times in 786 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
Yes, I would think that Universal would be a good choice. I have never used it but have heard only good about it. Same burn rate as Unique and cleaner burning.
Now you have me intrigued. I have been using Unique in the
44 Special for years. In the minimum target load of 6 grains
under a 240 SWC, while extremely accurate, I get unburned
flakes on my sweaty hands and absorb nitroglycerine and who
knows what else. Sometimes to the point of the classic headache.
Tomorrow is the day I pick up a canister of Universal. I was going
to the target shop anyways to get some primers.

I like supporting the local stores and this one is very good:

Welcome To Recob's Target Shop

Thanks for the idea. I did do some additional research.

---
Nemo

Last edited by Nemo288; 07-15-2011 at 01:52 AM. Reason: change notification
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-16-2011, 03:01 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 6,836
Likes: 2,665
Liked 3,927 Times in 2,366 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smith crazy View Post
I have no problem with the sales hype, round. I just want to know that it is so in reality!

Not like a company, even a good company with good slogans, can't exaggerate a bit when it comes to their products.

Just sayin'
Yep, manuals are as much advertising as honest science. Look in every manual & they'll tell you the 357sig headspaces on the mouth & most that load for it know the shoulder is really the datum.
BTW, a good powder for big cases & slow lead bullets is TrailBoss. I still don;t think I would use it for 300gr though, it is very fast.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
380, 38spl, 44 magnum, 45acp, 650, bullseye, carbine, cartridge, chamber pressure, chronograph, colt, crimp, idpa, model 25, model 625, ruger, sig arms, universal, wadcutter, winchester

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
.38 SPL - How about TiteGroup or 700-X? tacotime Reloading 42 11-03-2020 02:00 PM
Why I don't use Titegroup in the 500 John Ross Reloading 83 10-24-2015 04:46 PM
Titegroup Kevin G Reloading 29 12-13-2014 11:43 PM
.38 S&W Using Titegroup mi2600 Reloading 11 07-22-2014 05:27 PM
Titegroup in 9mm tomf52 Reloading 5 12-06-2013 11:20 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:35 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)